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skydiverek

Lazy drogue throw VIDEO - scary!

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A tandem pair falling through the sky before drogue toss creates a conical vacuum above the tandem pair. The longer you go no drogue, the more you accelerate, the bigger the vacuum becomes. Lazy drogue throws can very easily result in the drogue being sucked back on the tandem pair's back, flopping around, searching for air, all the time allowing the drogue bridle to flail as well. That is why it is imperative that when a tandem master throws the drogue, he (or she) throws it as strong as possible LATERALLY into clean air, so that it can inflate cleanly, and not risk getting sucked back onto the tandem pair.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

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[fair warning... I'm not a TI]

... what caught my eye more was... like someone up post already said... 1) When did the Tandem Student loose his goggles... and... 2) It looked like both the laterals and shoulder (student harness to tandem rig top attach points) look to be "looser" then they should (could) be.

... oh yeah... and 3) The Student being fetal (reverse arch) out the door surly didn't help... :S

[/fair warning]


Other then that... yeah, kinda a lazy throw... I saw one similar a little whiles back that resulted in the drouge/bridle horse-shoed on the TI / Student's legs... after trying to clear it... the TI did the emergency procedures thing and got him and his studnet under the reserve at around 9K after being basically drougeless since leaving the aircraft.

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No matter how you cut it the TM had his hands full. That pax was sticking arms and legs all over the place trying to look at the camera. When they do that with or with out camera it can be a handfull for the TM, I know this from experience as do I would imagine almost all of the TM's doing tandems. Show me one that says they have not I will show you one that will have a handfull passenger at some point.

Scott C.
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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You hit it right on the nose dude. Unstable exit,long delay to build alot of speed,dearched student with hard arch of instructor. It could be the angle of the video but it almost looks like they were dropping off on their side when he flicked the drogue out. What do you think? Seems like they may have had a bit of airflow from the side as the student was wish washing around. The RSL ball seems to be kinda unsecured and flopping around over the three ring. Seems there should be a velcro tab holding it in place.

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Unstable exit,long delay to build a lot of speed,dearched student with hard arch of instructor.



THIS was the thing that caught my eye. I'm only a new TM, but I was taught this was the "always success" recipe for a side spin. In fact just around drogue trow it looks just like that.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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No matter how you cut it the TM had his hands full.


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as do I would imagine almost all of the TM's doing tandems



Yes, the TM had his hands full. After the jump, I'm sure one of two things happened once the passenger left: 1) The TM joked with the videographer about how poor his student performed causing all that stuff in the video to happen (not learning anything from it), or 2) The TM evaluated what he could have done better to prevent that from happening again, like better prejump training, doing stable exits instead of flips, etc (ie, learned something from it) and made changes to his operating procedure on future tandem skydives. Which do you think happened when the student left, 1 or 2?

On any skydive, you get out of it what you put into it.

At a glance:
1) Neither instructor nor student had a helmet
2) Student did not have an altimeter or ripcord
3) Instructor did a "chair position" flip out the door which actually put his students legs in the poor position they were in during their unstable no drogue freefall.
4) The instructor threw the drogue unstable into dead air. He had ample altitude to regain control of his student and his skydive before drogue toss, but he chose not to use that time and altitude, and as a result almost through the drogue bridle around his ankle.

I agree with you sdctlc, every TM out there will inevitably get "taken for a ride" by a student eventually, but there are a number of things we can do to decrease that likelyhood, and decrease the effects of it when it does happen, by making safety our #1 goal, through proper preparation, proper training, proper execution and professionalism.

October 2006 Parachutist Mag "Safety Checklist" mentions the "carnival ride"mentality of some tandem instructors today. This video is an excellent example of that mentality and shows just what sort of things can happen when a tandem skydive is not treated as an educational learning experience.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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I have a question. Did either of them expect the parachute to deploy. I just get the feeling that the TM (especially the passenger) were not expecting it.

Watched teh video and I cant see him pull the cord.....just looks odd.


------
Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

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The goggles come off right around 6:12 or so and the deployment was on the lower left. I am a videot and not a TM but I think the old Vectors are like that so probably some others as well. I am not sure any of the throws I saw were real time but I never like to see a drogue touch feet or legs. As said before, the passenger was having fun flailing all over the place. Fun to video but glad I'm not strapped to them,B|
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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looks to me like an standard 182 cessna exit.:)and then it gets close or is very brief an side spin.
student is very de arched and all arms and legs plus the fact the the TM is a big (heavy) guy on an light flimsy passenger. (weight wants to be down)
yes he could have thrown the drogue better but hey... no drogue no main[:/]
toet toet food driver

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no drogue no main

:P

Uhm, I'd like to take you up on the statement standard 182 exit, I would recommend poised hanging, or diving exit, not a deliberate de-arched, grab and hug the student and make an hole in sky exit.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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Flips are not a standard exit out of a Cessna nor are they recommended by either relative work shops or Strong.:S

It looks like the guy threw the drogue to get stable; I think he could have been there if he kept flying a little longer, got stable and then threw the drogue, and we wouldn’t be here talking about it. ;)
Memento Mori

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In response to several post I remember this guy very well. In fact I ended up doing some of his AFF training that came later. Though I didn't shoot this video I shot many..many at our dz as well as at other DZ's and have seen many that resembled just this one. I wished I had a buck for everytime I have seen the drogue or bridle hit someones foot.
To set the record straight.
1. This was a very current and capable TM.
2. The student was one of the worst that I had ever seen or dealt with after the jump. Many on the ground believe that he was on something the way he was acting after the jump.
3. We did have a round table discussion regarding what went wrong and what we could do in the future.
4. It's easy to pick a jump a part sitting on your couch. Strap it on and take someone that is out of control, then the whole perception changes.

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every ti will have a student take you for a ride - i had one put me in a spin right after drouge throw and got it stopped at pull time - he came out for a second tandem adn requested me and put me in a worse spin wich i got fed up with and dumped at 7500 ft - exits are important to not be lazy - a lazy will get you in trouble fast

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1. This was a very current and capable TM.



I'm sure he is, but he (not the student) chose to do a "chair position" front flip from the plane which put his students legs in that bent 90 degree position on exit which contributed to their instability when he cam eout of the flip. He started the bad jump cycle, no one else.

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3. We did have a round table discussion regarding what went wrong and what we could do in the future.



That's great, not everyone would do that. I give you guys alot of credit for learning from the experience.

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4. It's easy to pick a jump a part sitting on your couch. Strap it on and take someone that is out of control, then the whole perception changes.



"Arm chairing" aside, there is alot that can be learned from footage like this. It is a text book example of the carnival ride tandem gone bad. I have 1100 tandems in 4 years, so I think I pretty current on tandem protocols . We can all get students that are capable of taking us for a ride periodicaly, but we can also all do things as TIs to MINIMIZE the chance of it happening, and MINIMIZE the degree with which it goes out of control, by 1) doing stable exits into the relative wind, and 2) using the appropriate altitude and time we have to get stable BEFORE we throw the drogue. In this "arm chair" review, he did neither.

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I wished I had a buck for everytime I have seen the drogue or bridle hit someones foot.



This actually made me laugh. if you have witnessed enough drogues and bridles hitting someones feet that it qualifies for "if I had a buck every time...." status, then the TIs you work with need to be retrained on throwing drogues. 15 dropzones, hours reviewing tandem footage, 100s of instructors, I've seen it maybe twice, both times, unstable drogue toss and lazy throw.

I'll reiterate this from my earlier post, Tandem Instructors must throw the drogue as strongly as they can LATERALLY, not behind them like they do on a sport PC. If you throw the drogue away from you LATERALLY, it will be much less likely to be sucked back in the vacuum, and much less likely to "hit feet"....... :|

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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