Tandem-only progression???

[DrTWT 0]

Hi all,

I'm new here (obviously), and was curious about how you felt about the following.

I made a few jumps back around 1987 or so. Two static-lines at one DZ, then some tandems at another. Here's where it gets a bit crazy. I did a total of 5 tandems: 1 joy-ride, 4 training with rip-cord pulls, turns, etc. Then, I was put out the door by myself at around 8000'. (In fact, my instructor was the only one around at the time of the first solo~ he was the pilot of the 182, and raced back down to meet me.) I did a total of 5 or 6 solos, never had any problems, at least that I was aware of. But there was never anyone else in the air with me. I quit largely because I ran out of money (in college at the time) but I also was getting a bit scared of going again.

I don't recall the details/size of the main, but it was ripcord activated, reserve was round, and there was some type of AAD.

I'm posting mainly because I'm curious if this was ever a popular (or even experimental) progression at the time. My instructor, who I trusted and respected completely at the time, mentioned it wasn't AFF or SL but thought it was a better way to train. Without the internet back then, I guess I really didn't know better. From what I gather from lurking here for awhile, this wasn't likely a really good idea...

I'm thinking about starting over again with AFF, though I'm older and have a family (2 young kids) and wonder if I have the time to do this now or if I should wait. I really enjoy lurking this forum, and seeing the photos and reading the stories really bring back some firmly ingrained, and beautiful, memories.

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[AFFI 0]

I personally think tandem progression is a great way to learn how to skydive. If someone really wants it though it dosent matter what the training method is, at least that was the case for me. I wanted to become a skydiver so bad I would have done AFF, Tandem progression or static line - the first DZ I went to has AFF though so that is what I did.

You raise a lot of issues and the only person that can decide if you want to get into the sport is you.

Sounds like you have fond memories.

If you are looking for advice as to how to get back into the air it would help to know what part of the world you are in as skydiving is seasonal in many places.

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[DrTWT 0]

Yeah, many fond memories...

I'm still kicking around the idea of getting back into it... something I'll have to decide but I'm in no particular rush at the moment. I'm in Boston, so nothing will happen at least until the spring.

Thanks for the reply.

[DougH 270]

Boston is a little bit a hike, but when you come back consider checking out Jumptown in Orange, MA.

They are actually jumping on weekends until the end of december so you should stop by and check the place out.

I am the same way as AFFI, I would have jumped any way it was offered.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[BIGUN 1,049]

I'm with Mykel (AFFI)... IMO Tandem progression is the best methodology. It's a complimentary blend of Tandems and AFF; hence the term, Accelerated Freefall Program (AFP).

As for how you learned before, it really doesn't matter, they all count. And, if you wanna get really vested in what he did versus what is today called the Integrated Student Program (ISP) where a student can use S/L, AFF, or Tandems moving towards their "A" license, it sounds like your previous Instructor was either ahead of his time or outta his fuckin mind.

As for your deciding whether to come back now or wait, that's a decision you have to make. Course, if ya gets hurt on landing, "Physician, heal thyself."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Liemberg 0]

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it sounds like your previous Instructor was either ahead of his time or outta his fuckin mind.

Successively? Or simultaneously?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Jumpah 0]

I learned at Skydive New England...I'm sure they'll help plot a training program that makes sense for you, even if it deviates from their default program. They do have a tandem progression for students that merges into AFF, should you want something like that. It's about 1.5 hours from Boston (there are bunkhouses, tenting, food onsite, etc). When you are licensed they have free load organizers who will get you jumping with other people.

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

I started jumping at a DZ that had the same sort of training method. Luckily I moved right before I did my first solo and started on AFF III at another DZ. After I had some time in the sport I realized how bad this training method was. Like you said I had no idea at the time. From talking with others it seemed no one at the DZ could get an AFF rating so this is what they did. As others said tandem progression can be a great method, but this is when it is coupled with IAF jump with a rated instructor. It's not a good I dea to just throw a student out of the airplane by themselves after just a few tandems. BTW I had about 15 min of ground training before I was to go my first solo that got weathered out thaday. I'm not sure where you jumped but mine was in Titusville FL. This was 14 years ago and the DZ has changed hands many times since then. It is a great DZ now and the staff is top notch.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Yeah, the Tandem only progression is the best thing ever invented for the DZO and JMs frustrated teaching FJC after FJC for students that +98% will never do a second skydive.

Think about it...

The DZ "requires" all students to start out doing 1, 2, 3, 4... ??... more??... Tandems, thus, doing away with having to invest all that time in training students on how to deal with malfunctions, landing pattern, flying their canopy, what to do if the radio doesn't work, off DZ landings, etc. etc. etc. because at the end of an AFF or SL jump the student is going to wind up under their own canopy, by themselves. Enter the Tandem-only progression and all "that" goes away for the DZOs and JMs when you require students to do Tandems for their first X - number of jumps.

Okay, like someone up post said... if for what ever reason it is that sparks someone to be a skydiver happens... then it won't matter if they go AFF, SL or AFP... but wake up and smell the coffee, the motivation for the AFP program for many DZs is they don't have to invest all that time in training students for the fist jump, but they still get the $$$... but if they get a student that progresses past those first several tandems, then they'll invest the time to teach them what we all used to learn in FJC for a SL or AFF 1st jump. And consider also those that may be lost becasue the spark to make them a skydiver isn't as strong as it is in say the next person or slow in coming and we loose them out of the sport because all they've done on their first few "student" jumps is go for a "ride".

*sigh* ... sorry for the vent.

[DrTWT 0]

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It's not a good idea to just throw a student out of the airplane by themselves after just a few tandems.

This is was I was wondering about. After starting to read a bit about current training methods and AFF etc, I started to wonder about my experiences back then. At the time all seemed well-- my instructor was an all-around good guy and I'm sure he wouldn't have let me go if there were any questions or concerns.

It's fun to start thinking about this again...

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[AggieDave 6]

Or students do 2 tandems a Cat A and a Cat B and then go through an AFF ground course. When they do their AFF Cat C their body position is better, they have an understanding of everything that goes on, altitude awareness, how the canopy opens, what a landing pattern is and how to fly the canopy in that pattern. Lets not forget the practice they get doing all of those practice flares with the TI then on landing.

The progression is only as good as the instruction. That goes for any skydiving progression. Doesn't matter if its AFF, AFP, SL or IAD, if the instruction sucks so will the student and the entire program.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Adrenalinejunky 0]

My first tandem was in '96, and it took me a year and a half to come back, mainly because I waited for my friends that wanted to do it again too. The
AFP program consisted of three tandems, being taught something new each time, and then you would go out with only one instructor with you, instead of two. Other than that, the program was basically the same as the standard AFF program.
I have a student that has done two tandems with me, and plans to do one more in a couple of weeks. I am teaching her how to move in the sky, and she is going to be a great skyidver. It's not that she is required to do tandems, but she wants to learn, but isn't ready to wear a rig on her back. So, after her next tandem, it is off to AFF. She is more comfortable, and I think it will be obvious on her first AFF jump. Just my 2cents.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Or students do 2 tandems a Cat A and a Cat B and then go through an AFF ground course...

... and if they don't show back up for Cat C, the DZO and JMs get to rake in a bunch of $$$ with much less effort then if they had taught the student AFF from the get-go. No argument with anything you said, but don't deny that's a fact as well.

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The progression is only as good as the instruction. That goes for any skydiving progression. Doesn't matter if its AFF, AFP, SL or IAD, if the instruction sucks so will the student and the entire program.

AMEN!

[AggieDave 6]

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... and if they don't show back up for Cat C, the DZO and JMs get to rake in a bunch of $$$ with much less effort then if they had taught the student AFF from the get-go. No argument with anything you said, but don't deny that's a fact as well.

So? Who the hell cares if the DZ makes money? Actually I want the DZ to make money so we have better and updated student gear with a better airplane and good facilities.

Why tie up an AFF-I teaching a FJC every week instead of jumping with a student who has already gone through the Cat A/B tandems for someone who will do 1 jump and then leave? I don't see why this is a problem for you. Or would you rather teach a FJC each week and have 95% of your students leave after one jump. The 5% that stay would have stayed anyways with a Cat A/B tandem.

The better the DZ does the more money that is spent on all the things at the DZ and more money that is spent on advertising. All of that means more students which means more students for me. That means more jumps, more instruction and more staff. That all translates to growing a larger fun jumper base. That translates to having a larger DZ with more people doing cool things out of even larger planes.

I'm trying to figure out how this is a bad thing. You've referenced that its a bad thing in two posts now. I'm not a turbine baby (if that is what you think), infact I've been with my DZ since it opened 4 1/2 years ago and have worked hard to help grow it into a turbine DZ with more students and more stuff going on.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

When did I say any of that was a bad thing?

I was just trying to point out... and you piled on and helped that... is what motivates DZOs & "professional" JMs is $$$ and "lifestyle"... so don't think for a minute that the attarctions of the tandem-only progression dovetails nicely in with that... what a coincidence... really? ... futhermore, as you demo'ed, that also is a good thing for us DZ-rats that just want to skydive.

so... Adave... SO!?

[AggieDave 6]

I guess the biggest thing is that I've seen the program implemented very well and the kind of skydivers it turns out. Honestly its impressive when a tandem progression that is done well with a strong well designed coaching program after AFF. Its almost annoying seeing students that I helped teach turn out with their A-license and 25-30 jumps skydiving well beyond what my ability was with 150 jumps. Well, annoying and very satisfying.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cjsgrlsx3 0]

I just want to say I am so glad that I read this post. When I started this whole "skydiving thing" , as my friends call it, I never even realized there was a Tandem progression program until my instructor said something to me after my fourth tandem. I am now bored with the thought of doing another tandem and will move on to my AFF program in January. Until I read this I have never heard or read anything else about a Tandem Progression. I just thought I was being a chicken and thought I would be stuck in the tandem haze until I worked up the nerve. But I WAS actually learning to skydive during those tandems. Correct ways to turn and wearing my own altimeter and pulling. I even learned a bit about landing. Thanks all!

[Katzeye 0]

DrTWT - sound like you started "back in the day" when some of the progressions were being developed.

For what it's worth, I did a tandem progression. I did 3 total tandems. The first to get my "knees in the breeze", the second with altitude awareness, wind sock location and helping flare. The last with turns, pulling on my own and stability.

After those 3 I went through teh FJC course and started at a Level 3 AFF. Which means I had one jump (if it went well) with 2 instructors and after that only one until I graduated.

I like it because I really didn't have the courge to "just go do it" all by my lonesome. It was reassuring to have someone on my back that knew what the hell was going on. The one drawback was that I tended to backslide once I was out on my own. Mainly due to the fact that in a tandem, even though you are part of keeping the team stable, it really is in the TM's body position that keeps you where you are.

As for starting again, it all depends on what your gut tells you but I would say all of the progressions have their pros and cons.

Blue Skies!

Is a chicken omelette redundant?

[marks2065 0]

i started on an old system of 5 tandems and 4 solo assisted jumps - i think still this is the best way to train a student proper canopy control and landing - by the 3rd jump i was telling the ti the landing patern and when to flare - made my first 4 solos very easy - at hinckley we had a very small landing area and it was nice to land there 3 of those solos and missed the 4th by not much (found out i don't like to land in the beans on the 4th) actual hands on with a ti is the best way to learn - i would not have done very well with aff since i had some issues with body position that the ti helped me with before i did a solo

[pchapman 261]

At the DZ I instruct at, students either progress through a traditional static line program, or the less common tandem program. I've never felt the tandem program at our particular DZ to be that successful in terms of value for money, so I am interested in this thread.

At the DZ, I think the instruction for the tandem program could be improved, to make sure the high dollar jumps (compared to a static line jump) aren't wasted. Tandem instructors earn normal tandem pay when taking a student through subsequent tandems. Even for decent instructors this is poor incentive, compared to taking up some other plain tandem student. (Is this normal?) Instructors probably aren't particularly comfortable with the whole progression program, simply because any given instructor only deals with such jumps very infrequently.

Currently the tandem program begins with a standard first tandem jump. (Although more can be taught if one knows the student will continue.) Jump #2 introduces figure eight turns, plus of course "a bit of everything" from gear check through landing. Jump #3 is the clearance jump with the student leading the whole jump.

Assuming the student has performed well, especially when it comes to altitude awareness and pulling, then the student takes the static line ground school course (at no cost), does one static line training ripcord pull for that first solo jump, and then feeds into the normal static line progression starting with a 15 second delay. (This is in Canada. This is an unusual system, as the DZ has never had any PFF / AFF style program for the students to feed into.)

For years we used to have another jump in the sequence that came before the current clearance jump, where the student would do a roll to the left and to the right, with a little instructor assistance, before the drogue was out. The intent was to make the student comfortable with unusual attitude recovery. Although it must have helped in that way, in the end I think it was deleted as not being a good enough simulation of going unstable while solo, as well as there being the issue of picking up a lot of speed if the exercise took a while.

[marks2065 0]

when i started the tandem progression tere was 5 tandems and 4 solo assisted jumps
level 1 taught to arch, practice rip cord touches, alt awareness, pull, and talked and flew canopy to landing
level 2 - same as level one with turns
level 3 - level 1 & 2 plus forward motion
level 4 - same as before but i told the ti about the dive and how to set up landing and when to flare
level 5 - repeat of level 4
solo assisted jumps same as tandem requirements

this is by far the safest and best program i have seen - also the training started on jump 1 no meat ride on the first

[steveorino 7]

It sounds like a good program but I need some clarifications:

1) What type of exit wil they do in a C182? It is my understanding most tandem manufacturers are wanting TM to NOT do poised exits anymore.

2) The typical "legs up the butt and out of the airstream" are normal for tandems when does this change? Ist tandem? Second?

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I'm interested in learnig more about this methods, as it seems VERY flexible.

steveOrino

[marks2065 0]

we did do exits from the strut but with everyone having otters that is not that big a deal anymore
the legs thing was worked on on the 4th and 5th tandems with forward motion - the first solo was a little rough but was corected by the second solo - by the time i was on solo i had 1 on 1 actual expeience on what was needed to exit, be stable, alt aware, body pos on opening,contol check on canopy, finding the dz or good landing area, and landing the canopy. when i started we did not have radio for landing so it was important to know how to set up and land before solo. i also got 15-20 min with the ti for instruction, before gearing up and getting on the plane. by the time i was on solo i had alot of instruction and what was needed to be safe

[JumperWillis 0]

What is the typical cost of the initial tandem jump and subsequent tandem progression jumps? This sounds like a very good program.

[marks2065 0]

when i started things were a little cheaper first tandem was $145.00 each jump after got cheaper the last solo was $70 - i'm sure things would be a little more now i think it probably would run $200 to $120 now - this is a progression i haven't seen used in over 10 years