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Is the AFF rating too easy?

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After graduation, you buy a few student rigs, rent a storefront on Main Street, build yourself the training aids, and open the door. The only reason to go to the DZ (in a person's student days) would be to actually jump. The Instructor could then take his students to the DZ that gave them the best deal and it would turn how we divvy up student dollars on its head.



Kinda off-thread, but on your subject. This was done in Tulsa years ago. A well-respected Instructor opened a store front training classroom and would then package up students in a bundle - call DZs and see who would give the best rate. His place was open for several years.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Having graduated from Rick Horn's AFF Cert Course several years ago, my initial thought when they changed the format was that they had made it easier. The way I see it now, is that they have (intentionally or not) simply changed the point at which people "wash out". Whereas in the past, ~ 40-50% of the candidates washed out in the course, now I believe those same people simply discontinue their pursuit of an AFF career/rating when they enter the real world of AFF and run smack-up against the sober reality of the responsibility they've undertaken. In other words, it has become more self regulating. Until things change dramatically, I believe it always has, and will continue to be, a responsibility very few are willing or able to endure. Especially for $35 a pop.

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The course is only as good as the Course Director and the people evaluating in the Course.



I agree with this comment.

I would like to see changes in the system we have in place today and from what I am reading others are saying the same thing.

My concerns are yes AFF course has a problem in that it is too easy, but my largest concern lies in the tandem instructor course. Sorry to deviate from this thread but have you ever heard of any tandem instructor candidate fail a course? In my thirteen years in this sport my answer is NEVER!>:(
Memento Mori

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there is a diference between aff and tandem - a tandem can't get away from you (well usually can't ) with aff you need to be able to outfly any student if they get away from you wich means you need to float and/or fall fast with students from 90lbs to 270lbs. this makes you have to have great flying skills - with these differences aff should be harder to pass and require more testing to make sure you can cover these extremes

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With a teaching course the evaluator can teach you all the tricks he is going to show you and then amazingly when he tests you have seen his tricks and know how to solve them.



I can only speak from my experience here. I took the course from Bram and Ellie. I worked very hard to prepare but I was still not sure what to expect. I took the pre-course and made practice jumps with Bram. I felt very well prepared after the valuable tips and techniques he taught me. After only a few practice jumps he recommended I "go hot" with eval jumps. Once you do that all practice is over and you swim or drown.
I am really interested in the idea that he could show me his tricks and I would easily correct them. What he really did was probe my strengths and weaknesses and help me improve. On the eval dives if your strength is falling fast you will definitely be having to catch floaty students and vice/versa. His ability to fly like a student still boggles my mind but the confidence I gained by catching and correcting situations that were not my strong points made me absolutely certain I am ready to be an instructor. I would also recommend his course to anyone as well as happily take a student with any instructor Bram graduates. He gives a lot of credit to other directors that have been mentors for him and I feel very lucky to have chosen his course when I was ready. After my own preperation, I would have went to any course believing I had the ability to pass. Also, I would like to say everyone in the class did not pass. 2 jumpers simply needed more in air practice but since they were from another country they wanted to try. Bram gave them an honest and non hostile evaluation and at the end, they were found wanting. I am sure they left understanding what they needed to improve and could both be excellent instructors now.

If you want an easy course director Bram is not him but if you want an outstanding teacher who will also be extremely fair and honest, go to skydiveratings dot com
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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... It was definitely a teaching course - both in groundwork and airwork and it was great. Rather than the high-stress military-style courses I had heard about that other people went through, ours was more mellow but an incredible learning experience.



There must be a reason or some logic behind that approach...but damned if I can see it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I went through my course with Bram. He spent a good bit of time with us before the course to teach us things. In fact he really recomended we did a few jumps with him before the course started....It helped quite a bit. I would recomend Bram in a second to anyone looking to get their rating. I have also see Bram tell people they were not ready and recomend they go home and work on a list of things them come back.



I second that!
He (and Ellie) also informed of the necessity and structure of the practice jumps prior to the course, so it was clear when signing up.


Ron, I'm sure you would like my partner I had on the double-jumpmaster dives. Good communication ;););)


It's all right to have butterflies in your stomach. Just get them to fly in formation.

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Ron, I'm sure you would like my partner I had on the double-jumpmaster dives. Good communication



Yeah, my guy didn't suck either. :P
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I know of AFF candidates passing recently when the cameraman was closer to the student at pull time than the candidate.



I hear rumors of courses like that but still have yet to see video of them. Are you sure you weren't watching a practice jump?

I am not sure there is a course director out there that would allow it. People get awfully quiet when asked for names. Vague accusations are easy to make and hard to defend against. That doesn't make them any more valid.
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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I hear rumors of courses like that but still have yet to see video of them.



I have a few. ;) Even some with my reserve side funneling the exit and never making it back into the skydive with the student and I on a level1.
I'll try and get them change from VHS to DVD and load them for you.


Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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Am I correct that you are talking about screwing up the eval dives during the rating course? It is my understanding you can screw up on one jump in the course and still complete it.

All dives don't go as planned but I can't imagine doing AFF's if I didn't think I had earned the rating. As far as people who require the built in second chance in the course, I have seen videos of very good instructors getting separated from the student. Their skill shows in how fast they get back but no one is invincible.

I believe you when you say you have the video. I think all the course directors have their own collection of real student jumps gone bad that they use to impress the seriousness of these jumps. It reinforces the procedures to see what they are in place to prevent.
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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I' not too familiar with the AFF course and am out of my league to talk about it. But from listening and watching things at my DZ there could be another approach.
I'm a PADI Master Scuba Diver Instructor, and one of the things I like about Instructing SCUBA is the flexibility I have to conduct my course, as long as I follow standards and ensure my students meet standards.
Maybe an approach to both the AFFI and AFF course especially, is take home study material. I conduct my SCUBA that way. People interested in SCUBA come up to me, and first I get them the books, tell them to read, study and do the self-exams in them, and when they are finish, come and talk to me about starting a course. Its not a perfect system, but for me, it is REALLY easy to see who is prepared and who isn't. I have turned people away because they say they are ready but they really haven't read anything.
I think it would work for at least the AFF course. I agree with a post that said a lot of the course is "survival" techniques. I love jumping with skydivers fresh off student status because I learn how well each instructor is. To me, there isn't enough taught and learned prior to getting in the air for that first jump.
So many people go thru AFF, and when you start talking to them about basics, they don't know. I say have them buy a "manual" that teaches for than survival skills, give them written and on the ground practical exams, and then take them to the air. I think it would promote safer skydiving, especially with canopy control.
Sorry that some of this is about AFF, but I think that the basic design I'm talking about for AFF students should be in the Design for AFFI and a whole lot more.

Thats my 2 cents.
Brad

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I am not so sure that all AFF I's have to have a range of fall rate to fall with 90-270 pounders. For one, most DZs will have a weight limit of about 225-235 pounds.

Some people weigh 90 pounds but in about 700 AFF dives I had one girl who was 105 pounds. Some of the bigger dudes were in the 220s. My heaviest student was 230-235. I wore weight and had no problems with him but I only took him on release dives and single JM dives after getting to know him with a few non release dives.

Part of being a good and safe AFF I is knowing your limits and not over extending them. If anyone expected me to jump with someone over 230 pounds and I was not comfortable with it I would simply say No. Just like I would not expect an old friend of mine "Big Dave" who probably neared 260 to fall comfortably with a 95 pounder.

It's all about making good decisions and maintaining the control of what you are comfortable with. That is one thing I learned from my CD at my course. In the air, students are in our airspace and they are our responsibility.

My course was exactly what I hoped it to be. It was challenging, physically and mentally rigorous, energy and time demanding, intense, informative and extremely rewarding. I felt Glenn Bangs and the evaluators did their jobs and if you came prepared and had the skills, you got the rating if you followed their curriculum.

7 out of 8 passed our course and a few of them were repeat takers. I worked very hard and prepared intently. I also listened to my mentors. I did the pre-course, researched everything I could about it and I also read all of Rick Horn's material on the Internet. That and Glenn Bangs positive encouragement and teachings is what made the difference for me.
Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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You make some good points. I was fortunate enough to do my check out jump with the same guy who was my main side JM on my first AFF jump. Very cool experience and something that kept me in the game. I like being able to talk to my instructors and get advice from them...

As far as canopy control goes...no shit!! Over 80% of a skydive is spent under canopy so of course those skills should be stressed. The problem is that there is SO much that can go wrong in freefal(with students)l and that really is the first priority of any AFF skydive...getting under a functioning canopy. But lets be realistic...the only way to get good at canopy is to spend some time flying.

I like this thread. Its given me a lot of insight to something I want to do, which is instruct people to survive(and enjoy for many years) the fun of skydiving especially the first one...
Someday Never Comes

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That’s the point CANOPY CONTROL. The only rating I don’t have is the AFF but I’ve got everything else. But I remember when I was getting my 1st instructional rating which was “Static Line Jump Master” in 1997 beside the ground prep. , the actual skydive and the emergency procedures we had to perform canopy stuff as well. We had to DIRT DIVE the canopy part of the jump not only the free fall. In fact each candidate had to act as a student while another radioed him/her down front of an evaluator!!! We had people had to repeat the course because they failed the “canopy control teaching” part of it. I don’t see these things these days. No candidate required at any course to prove the ability to teach canopy control or do actually radio. The result of that is I’ve seen (heard) a very experienced instructors telling to the student on the radio like “make a turn towards to me” like the 1st time jumper knew where the instructor was standing on the ground with the radio. And this is only one of the million examples.
I remember when candidates after a course (AFF, S/L, or IAD) went home without the rating because they weren’t ready for it. Now…. everybody gets it, pay the fee, sit through the course, and jump until you get it… The most ridiculous is a D license holder can go and jump with a AFF level-7 graduate these days without even holding a coach rating!
Yes these days it’s getting lot easier.
-Laszlo-
www.laszloimage.com

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I did the Aff rating 7 years ago, i had over 1000 jumps at the time which i consider to be quite inexperienced, there were 12 people on my course and 4 evaluators, all the candidates had between 800-6000 jumps, I personally know for a fact that at least 10 of the candidates were way more experienced than the actual evaluators and could definitly outfly them on any given day, I also believe that the evaluators knew this. The problem is alot of the evaluators are in it for the power trip, alot have been in the sprt for 10 years and have 1000-1500 jumps and dont mind getting the $100 per day!!

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I read this thread prior to taking my Course with Kip of Air Rage at www.startskydiving.com.

I saw the various opinions and even went and got a few more from others who took Kip's and others Courses.

After I waded through all the info I decided to take Kips course.

I don't think the standards from USPA are too low, but maybe not always enforced. With Kip they are enforced. If you do the pre-course and course with him he wont let you waste your time on the course if he is not sure you up to snuff.

He worked me hard and had me breathing heavy after each jump with the amount of stuff he threw at me.

One other candidate said it was to much and not realistic ( I actually agreed for a second or two). But it was whining/feeling sorry for my self/ I should be doing better BS! another AFF-I and I had a Cat "A" yesterday who must have had Kips "Bad" Student Dive Flow Card, but since we had been there and done that in the Course it was a none issue for us. We controlled the exit, the student, the dive and when the bulb flickered out we even controlled the deployment, all as evaluated and to standard. The student landed safe and even on video admitted (with out prompting) how bad he was.

My point: The rating is not to easy. But it is only my opinion.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Kip does a good course, But i have videoed Eval jumps this summer from other evaluaters where you can blatently see the evaluator giving the rating away. Talk about easy skydives!!!
Kip and Rob laidlaw do the best course in my opinion very 2007 and not old school like some other evaluators.

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Having graduated from Rick Horn's AFF Cert Course several years ago, my initial thought when they changed the format was that they had made it easier. The way I see it now, is that they have (intentionally or not) simply changed the point at which people "wash out".



I do agree. People quit during the pre-course instead of failing the actual course. With a ton of realistic practice jumps, you are better prepared for the eval jumps, as well as real world AFF to follow. If I went in cold, I would not have passed. AFF flying is WAY different than all other flying I've done. There may be SOME evaluators who make it easy, but not all. There are some AFF-I's out there who were certified when it was "hard" that I'd rather not do work jumps with!

Do not attempt to cheapen the rating that some of us actually worked very hard for. Here was my response to a similar comment a while back.

[clears throat]

Yeah, these kids have it so easy these days with their 8-tracks, their
Zima and their polyester pant-suits...

Back in the day, you didn't "earn" an AFF rating. You had to wrestle
the mystical stone tablet with "AFF" etched on it from the mouth of a
dragon... by torchlight...

I know back then you had to ride on the back of a pterodactyl to get
to altitude. And, only jumped in loincloths. And, your canopies were
made of animal hides and sinew.

So when does "these days" begin? Immediately after you got YOUR rating?

Come on....


Andy
AFF-I


Blog Clicky

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