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Is the AFF rating too easy?

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Think it depends on who your CD is and how seriously you take the course...like anything else, you can simply meet the standards or fight to exceed them. Kip Lohmiller exceeded every stadnard in both training and testing and expects the same of his candidates. At our course there was a 64% pass rate so he certainly does not give anything away...

Again, I think it depends on your course director...
"This is better than sex, and cheaper too!"

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At our course there was a 64% pass rate

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for this statement to be exact, you would need 1600 participants
(OK, I'm a nerd, I admit it)



I don't understand your statement. If the course had 25 students and 16 passed then this would be a pass rate of 64 percent. Of course I readily admit that I am not a super cool math whiz and so please explain what I am missing. Please explain why I need 1600 people.:)
Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.



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I am thinking it isn't "too easy" for the ones prepared, but imPASSible for the ones unprepared.

Recently an Istructor was telling me he would just ask USPA for a waiver so he could do his "Hybred" student program (If he read the ISP and used it he would see all programs are covered there now) since he was doing harness hold jumps with out a rating.

So he didn't get it just given to him.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Some years ago I hurt myself B.A,S,E jumping and by the time the plaster came off my AFF rating had gone stale. Instead of the sure thing at my home DZ I jumped in my car and traveled up to Nor Cal where I wasn't so well known.

I hooked up with an AFF evaluator and proceeded with a stand in student to do the ground prep for a level 4. I noticed the evaluator was writing a lot so I figured I was going down the drain. Instead he later told me he'd never heard a better ground prep and was writing down the good parts.

Then I went and totally screwed up the dive we went on together, and don't let anyone tell you knowledge is a substitute for currency. When we landed and he told me I passed I ripped into him with a vengeance. I left without his signature but not before I told him he wasn't getting the $50 bucks either.

I drove down to Lake Elsinore where Rich Hiatt held my feet to the fire and I walked away knowing I was again ready to handle students. And I even learned a couple of things.

That guy from from up north is now a big shot in AFF.

The truth is out there . . .

NickD :)

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Current or former AFFI's:

Should an AFFI be able to chase down, catch, and deploy the main or reserve for a student?

Anyone that has taken the 'new' (since 2001-ish) AFFICC, is the candidate's ability to catch said unstable student tested by the evaluators?

And lastly, as an AFFI, can you catch said unstable student? If no, are you OK with that?

I have my opinions, but to be fair, I don't think they really count for anything anymore. Been too long.

Derek

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>Should an AFFI be able to chase down, catch, and deploy the main or
>reserve for a student?

Yes. The question I always ask myself - can I guarantee that 100%?

So far I've taken up around 1300 AFF students, and never 'lost one' or had one get away from me. There have been times when it's been a close thing - a light student would dearch and leave me struggling. Had she had a problem at pull time, could she have out-floated me while she hunted for that PC? Maybe. Which teaches me that next time I have a student like that I have to add drag.

Sometimes that gets me shit at the DZ, when the rest of the AFF-I's are going up in shorts and T-shirts and I'm there sweating in my ratty old Bodysport with sleeves on. But I don't mind putting up with that.

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Yes. The question I always ask myself - can I guarantee that 100%?



I don't think anything is 100%. That means 2 things. 1) How well can someone identify that number? I mean, do they think that number is 99% when it is really 65%? I see skydivers waaaay over estimate their abilities all the time. 2) What number is acceptable? 50%? 75%? 85%? 99%?

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But I don't mind putting up with that.



And that increases that number. Do others realize what their choices do to their number?

Derek

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I'm not an AFFI. Started down that road last season, and an incident caused me to re-think whether I'm mentally prepared to be in that slot but...
One comment made to me by more than one I/E, is that as an instructor, you "absolutely, positively will find yourself in a position where you can't get to your student as quickly as you should..." etc, yet Bill's post implies that this may not be true.
However, with another individual involved, gut response tells me that it's absurd to think you can be 100% on every jump with every student?
It's because I can't truthfully answer myself with a satisfactory value, that I've decided to back off my initial goal for the time being. 6 hours of freefall isn't enough to know much, IMO, even if most of them are relative work jumps.
So to the original point, maybe the program is too easy, but I don't know if I could pass it right now.[:/]
but I consider myself relatively talented and exceptionally current.

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I realize this post will probably just be deleted immediately as is the case with anything antithetical to the establishment at dropzone.com, but I can't help it. How obvious it is that this thread found its way to the front after the recent fatality. Is the rating too easy? Should the instructor be able to get to the student 100% of the time? Are these really the questions you people ask?

Skydiving is not safe, and it isn't the responsibility of gear manufacturers or instructors to make it so. If that were the case their jobs would be impossible. If you jump out of an airplane, you have a certain likelihood of dying. If you don't do what you are supposed to, said likelihood increases exponentially. You make that decision, you are responsible. Instructors are merely enablers. Even if they do everything safe and by the book, a student can still kill themselves.

It's your choice to throw yourself at the globe, take responsibility for it. Stop trying to blame it on someone else, please.

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Take a slow breath. Like I said earlier, I don't think it is possible to be 100%. I am not blaming the AFFI in the recent incident. It does beg the question of what the standard should be and AFFI's should think about their ability to catch a student and what can happen if they can't. They should think about it before confronted with it and make an honest assesment of their abilities, decide if those abilites are good enough and how would they handle it if they are unable to catcha a student. I am not trying to answer those questions for anyone. I am suggesting that people answer them for themselves, honestly.

Derek

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>you "absolutely, positively will find yourself in a position where you can't
>get to your student as quickly as you should..." etc, yet Bill's post implies
>that this may not be true.

Sorry if I gave that impression. I _have_ been in that position. I've been ten feet out on a level 4, using every trick I knew to keep up with the student, and trying to get close at pull time - and I had nothing left to get there with. (Her pull went fine, fortunately.) Even though she didn't "get away" I could not have been very effective if she had had a problem.

Now, there are still a few tricks you can use in that situation. Worst case I could burble her, have her fall on me, and get to her PC that way - but that's more a desperation move than anything else, and would indicate a failure on my part. To avoid having to do that in the future, I added drag.

Nor is that the only problem I've had. I've had to chase students down who seemed to be doing their level best to get away from me, and gotten there much more slowly than I would have wished to. I've spent way too long trying to "get around" a student that was slowly spinning - just slow enough that I was tempted to try. He managed to suck us pretty low by the time I gave up, tackled him from the other side and got his PC out.

So I know it _can_ happen to me. A light woman could have her jumpsuit blow open on a level 4, and she could immediately lose 10mph of freefall speed - and I might not be able to stay up with her. Or I might underestimate a tall guy's weight to surface area ratio. That's one of the reasons training is so important, I think. If the JM is the reason the jump will go safely, loss of a JM is a big stinking deal. If the JM is just there as a backup, his loss is not as big a deal.

One of the students I was most proud of was a level 1 who jumped with two heavier JM's at Brown. He dearched on exit, went over, went over again, one JM got off per procedure, he started spinning on his back and managed to throw the other one off. He flattened out and started to spin faster and faster. Neither JM could stay with him, as flat as he was. You could see him looking around to try to figure out what was going on. Five seconds later a pilot chute appeared, and his canopy opened with about 30 line twists. He landed safely.

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a light student would dearch and leave me struggling. Had she had a problem at pull time, could she have out-floated me while she hunted for that PC? Maybe. Which teaches me that next time I have a student like that I have to add drag.



What about matching the student to the AFF-I's body build/structure better.

I only do the AFF that I know I can be effective on.If there is any doubt whether or not I am going to be able to assist the student in freefall I'll defer to another instructor if possible.

For me it is more important for the student to have an excellent skydiving experience than for me to make an instructional jump.

Chris
AFF-I '08

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What about matching the student to the AFFI's body build/structure better.

I only do the AFF that I know I can be effective on.If there is any doubt whether or not I am going to be able to assist the student in freefall I'll defer to another instructor if possible.



Yes, there is that. A responsible AFFI, IMHO, would do exactly that.

Unfortunately, AFFIs at some DZs are put under intense pressure by uncaring DZOs. For example, "go with this guy or lose your job". Waaaaaaay too many AFFIs are willing to sacrifice their ethics. That situation grinds my shorts...and I put the onus directly on the DZO.

As to AFFI rating being too easy...
It doesn't matter what the performace requirements are...some CDs will pass candidates for any number of screwball reasons. And, just as often, I would venture to say, would fail others for other screwball reasons.

Consider:
-pass friends just because
-pass 'em to accomodate a DZO's needs for bodies
-fail 'em and make 'em spend more money for the rating
-fail 'em because you don't like 'em
-fail 'em because they come from a DZ/DZO that you don't like

Please don't think that these things don't go on..sadly, they do.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>What about matching the student to the AFF-I's body build/structure better.

That's also a good option, one that I sometimes forget about because I tend to try to "solve my own problems." At a place like Perris, that's not hard to do; on any given day there are several AFF-I's around. It might be a bit harder to do at a small DZ that has only 2-3 AFF JM's.

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I just took Bram's course at Zhills and was very surprised. With only a fraction of the jumps of many respectable AFF instructors (albeit plenty of tunnel time to add) - I was eager to take the course yet afraid I was nowhere near skilled enough. My confidence in my flying skills was definitely reevaluated and humbling. Although I feel 100% competent to perform the requirements of the AFF rating, I feel much more humble and admire those AFF instructors that I would consider damn good at their “jobs”. What I learned most was how to teach, how to keep learning and when to say no. The rating itself if evaluated/taught by the wrong person can definitely be way too easy. However, I feel that the standards expected by Bram have helped me tremendously and I will continue to evaluate my students similarly. Without a doubt, the standards of the program could be raised and you could implement jump numbers, licenses, hours and yada yada requirements – but would that really solve anything? I think the number of unqualified instructors would still be the same and those of us who might not meet more strict requirements would suffer. The system is exactly that, a system. It cannot nearly account for all factors to truly evaluate candidates. Can 10 hours of tunnel time be used for the required hours? Should wingsuit flying count? I think it’s ultimately the evaluators who are recommending the ratings that should have the final say. They are able to see past the numbers and glitter and truly evaluate a candidate. Now, whether or not the director’s course is too easy is a different discussion. For those of you who skipped all of that and just read the first and last sentences – Bram’s course (skydiveratings) is excellent. Bram, Elly and Nathan all did a wonderful job at preparing me for what I now consider one of the scariest disciplines in the sport (but potentially the most rewarding).

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> Without a doubt, the standards of the program could be raised and
> you could implement jump numbers, licenses, hours and yada yada
> requirements – but would that really solve anything?

I don't think it would solve anything, but it might keep the problem of unqualified instructors from getting worse.

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Wow!!!

Daniel, I must say I am very impressed by this post.

I am glad that you actually get what it means to have attended, completed and passed the AFF course.

Probably the hardest you will ever work, and the most relieved you will ever be to have survived, in this sport.

Excellent post, and I look forward to seeing you on the other side of a student.

Congrats young man!!!!

Ralph Nichols

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I was in the AFF course with Eric and I can say that it is not the RATING itself that is necessarily too easy to get, but it could be those that are administering the course that may make it too easy.

There are standards in place. Could they be raised in order to make sure that there is an even higher potential standard coming into the course? Sure. However, the real onus lands in the lap of the course director who is signing off on the rating card.

Bram ran a good course. It was well laid out, had a lot of good information and definitely made me feel more confident to go out there and teach the upcoming skydivers that I will be dealing with on a daily basis very soon.
The evaluators (Nathan and Elly) that helped out were also very knowledgeable in their own respects and helped provide alternate views and pointers to help we fledgling AFF-Is.

So, in short, the rating being easy should not be the biggest question, but rather the person who approves skydivers for their rating. If you want to make the requirements higher, fine, but have it with good reason, so that better candidates will really come out of the ratings courses.
Not again!

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I POST THIS VIDEO ON SDM FOR THE TOPIC.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=q6cap

I think the instructor really mess up on this jump. Its a level three and you can see how far away he is from her on deployment. The barrel roll was NOT done on purpose but she recovered good from it. Again i just posted the video so people can see how fast things could go wrong. The student was very lucky on this jump.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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that was NOT a level 3



Yes it was!!!At my DZ you have to do three tandems and 7 levels with one instructor. This was level three of the seven levels. So i guess you can call it level 6 if you include the tandems. She did really good. I just hate to think what could have happened. When you watch the video. All the turns and the barrel roll were not planned. This student had problems with her legs on level one and two. She kept them on her ass. So the instructor told her to do toe taps so she would know where her legs were. This caused the turns and barrel roll. Let me say that I AM NOT saying the instructor did a bad job. I just posted to show how crazy things can get.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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