loose laterals cause sidespin?

[carpenter 0]

I'm not quite sure that I believe that loose lats inhibit a side spin senario. I am a firm believer that safty comes first on a tandem jump. But I had an S&TA tell me once that "on a T-2 keep the lats loose, so the student can fly their body". At first I didn't like the idea, but did quite a few of them, and got quite comfortable with the lats loose. I don't make that a habit by any means, but occasionally can't get the lats tight, when my student is sitting, and huck them out regardless. Am I missing something?

[matthewcline 0]

Define "loose".

Snug enough to keep the student near you but loose enough to allow them to arch properly sould be acceptable.

Loose enough to do a vRW next to them is asking for a problem.

They shouldn't be "drifting" back and forth under you.

Loose lats do not inhibit a side spin, normally they contribute to it. Ask Bill Morrissy and watch his side spin brief from a PIA address a few years ago. Others here will add there experience too.

I tend to listen to a few here that I personally know and trust thier experience, if they disagree with me, I will consider changing my thoughts on the subject.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[carpenter 0]

"loose'" I guess is a Loose term, but I would say the slack on an average person for me, being about 10-12". I personally have not had a problem with the pax sliding away from me. I have been in a sidespin, with a passenger that was tight as shit, but the guy was 6'3" 130. No problem getting it on my back and the flipping on it's belly. Tight or not, they can get away from you. Normally I don't cinch them down too much. I want to know how many people feel that is too much. And Why? stories?

[riggerrob 558]

Every aviation wreck includes a trail of errors leading to the scene of the crash.
Loose laterals can contribute to side spins, ergo I tighten laterals as much as possible.
It usually takes me three or four tries to fully tighten laterals.
Attach QE snaps and tighten a bit.
Pat all the hooks and handles then tighten a bit more.
Brief student, then tighten a bit more.
Don helmet and handy-mount, tighten laterals a bit more.
One last cinch on laterals as I am sliding towards the door.
Part way through the process, I loosen the belly band to allow students to breath.

[efs4ever 3]

Quote

Part way through the process, I loosen the belly band to allow students to breath.

I leave the belly band pretty loose, explaining to the PAX, "that's where your belly needs to be on the
ARCH!!"

_____________________

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[matthewcline 0]

For the belly band, I leave a fists worth of space and tell them they are to arch into it, the goal being to push it away from them.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[soleil006 0]

In the wake of recent 'Tandem accidents' It was revealed that loose belly bands can cause the 'slipping' of students. Safety meetings were held to emphasise the neccesity of a correctly fitting Harness and how (if not already known) it actually worked.

The harnesses are designed similar to the climbing harness. That being that the seat is what hold them in. Leg straps, belly band. The chest strap holds them in for opening. The lats and top clips attach them to the instructor. I am of the understanding that should the s*%t hit the fan, you could 'theoretically' attach the student by two if not even one top clip and both survive opening and landing IF the harness is correctly adjusted.

Side spins occur with loose laterals and tight laterals. Body Position of TI and student.

Maye we all need a bit of re-education and an update of information to stay safe and informed..

Quote

Every aviation wreck includes a trail of errors leading to the scene of the crash.
Loose laterals can contribute to side spins, ergo I tighten laterals as much as possible.
It usually takes me three or four tries to fully tighten laterals.
Attach QE snaps and tighten a bit.
Pat all the hooks and handles then tighten a bit more.
Brief student, then tighten a bit more.
Don helmet and handy-mount, tighten laterals a bit more.
One last cinch on laterals as I am sliding towards the door.
Part way through the process, I loosen the belly band to allow students to breath.

[jdfreefly 1]

I've been waiting for this discussion.

background: I was a tandem instructor, and I have watched the side spin video.

First, I want to say that I believe that loose lats do contribute to the side spin starting. After that, it is the instructor's instincts that make it a problem.

Back in the day, when all anyone did was belly fly, it was drilled into your head through muscle memory, whenever things go bad, ARCH! This instinct will kill you in a side spin.

Now, with many instructors being avid freeflyers, or at least having spent a good ammount of time freeflying, our default action to trouble is different.

I've gotten into a sidespin twice, and both times I was out of it before it built any kind of speed. It didn't scare me, and not for one second was I worried if I could get out of it.

I think sidespins are a relic from the days of hard arching to solve all your problems. This doesn't mean I think we should all go and loosen the side laterals, and it doesn't mean we should stop teaching new TMs how to get out of it. But I do think it is not the boogey man it once was.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[marks 0]

if you have ever seen a sidespin, and seen it live, and also been lucky enough to see it happen with more than one instructor, more than once each instructor.
you will notice sidespins always seem to happen the same instructors, if it happens to them once, it usually happens to them again. the instructors that have never experienced one, quite likely never will.

[scottyreedman 0]

Wow this is much better. I really agree with you, although I don't do TM's as of a month ago I have done them. Also I have about 900 camera jumps and have seen this happen to the same TI's over and over like you said. Also the comment about the old days being arch out of everything is a very true statement. I never really arched out the door, I liked to go more on the feeling and the visual. I always found that no matter how much you train you never really know what your going to get outside the plane. So I found that just presenting and staying relaxed made me much better at dealing with what came to me on a TM exit. Peace Scotty.

Share Everything !!!

[carpenter 0]

I agree with everything, exept the loose belly bands. I leave those loose as well, I think it is a useless strap. The student will never fall throught the front, with a properly situated chest strap. Also, if you have them too tight it inhibits them from arching easily.

[lug 4]

Quote

you will notice sidespins always seem to happen the same instructors

If an instructor alwasy seems to get into sidespins then that instructor has an exit or student training problem that needs to be addressed, ASAP.

Quote

if it happens to them once, it usually happens to them again. the instructors that have never experienced one, quite likely never will.

Nope, that's not right, because S@#T happens when lest expected.


Loose laterals by it self will not cause sidespins. It will however make it difficult for the instructors gain control of the student’s legs during a sidespin. The Laterals should be tight but not uncomfortable for the student, enough so the instructor has control of the student’s hips with theirs.

Memento Mori

[darnknit 0]

Quote

the instructors that have never experienced one, quite likely never will.

let me know how that works out for you.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[matthewcline 0]

As I am relativly new to tandems among my peers (900 tandems today) my experirnce may not be the best example.

I have only had 1 side spin and got out of it by not giving up and as I was right side low not using the drogue. I only had around 120 tandems when it happened and have not had one since.

What is the side spin to good tandem jump ratio? I do want to be ready.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Schoenauer 0]

Back in the day when tandem progression was adopted by the USPA most DZ’s made the student do four tandems total before they could go into the AFF program with a single jumpmaster. On the upper level tandems, tandem two through four, I would not tighten the laterals as much as the pervious jump. The tightness of the student’s laterals were determined by exit performance, mainly the body position. For example, on the tandem two if there was no improvement compared to a tandem one then they laterals remand tight on tandem three even if they pass the tandem two skydive.

As for how loose I would leave the laterals lets just say snug but not sloppy loose. If the laterals a just snug and the student fly flat or out of balance, left to right, they will be unstable which they feel it easily. After correcting the body position they feel the exact opposite, stable.

Exiting the aircraft poorly and or a student has a bad body position leads to sidespin.

When the drogue is set and the tandem pair is turning that’s called no heading control, the instructor should then think about doing something else other then tandems.

Memento Mori

[marks 0]

Quote

Quote

the instructors that have never experienced one, quite likely never will.

let me know how that works out for you.

ok, works fine for me.. thanks for asking..

every instructor I have seen in a sidespin, I have seen it happen to them more than once. every tandam instructor I have not seen a sidespin from, well I have not seen it...

what exatcly are you asking me? how that works out? it is an observation that Im willing to bet, ALOT of video guys would agree on.

[marks 0]

Quote

As I am relativly new to tandems among my peers (900 tandems today) my experirnce may not be the best example.

I have only had 1 side spin and got out of it by not giving up and as I was right side low not using the drogue. I only had around 120 tandems when it happened and have not had one since.

What is the side spin to good tandem jump ratio? I do want to be ready.

I'm in no way saying you will have another, Im just stating the obsevation that the ones I have seen, I have seen more than once from the same instructors. my "observation" could include many many factors, including the fact that the laterals were not tight. I dont know what caused them, I just know that it always seems to happen to the same instructors.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Quote

the instructors that have never experienced one, quite likely never will.

let me know how that works out for you.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee!
Hee!
I have only experienced one side spin. That was about 2500 tandems ago (back when I only had a thousand tandem jumps). It was clearly caused by the student dangling his legs as far forward as he could get them. He landed with bad bruises on his knees caused by me repeatedly digging my heels into the tops of his knees.
Since then I have concentrated on stable exits and have only tumbled a few exits.

Knock on wood!

[camamel 0]

At my place I show all my inst to be as tight as possible. We always ask for help, when possible,so it is easyer and tighter. Sooner or later with loose laterals you will end up with problems... specialy with light passenger.

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.