Good Idea? Bad Idea?

[pash 0]

Jan,

If it is true that his ratings were pulled, I'd like to request that they be reinstated. I'm sure he learned the lesson.

Respectfully,

Jason Upchurch

[MakeItHappen 15]

For Jonathan Gordon:

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Is this how USPA deals with dicipline, by creating a lynching mob on DROPZONE.COM.

If you carefully read the post you replied to, you will see what USPA does.
I'll quote it here for your convenience:

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There were complaints filed with USPA.
The action that the RD took included pulling the S&TA appointments from the 2 DZOs and writing a letter to the TI that basically slapped the TI on the hand and said, "Don't do that again" and threatened him with disciplinary action if it (the hopping over to the side of the student) happened again.
One of the complainants has appealed the RD actions for review by the Executive Committee.
That is currently 'in progress'. I do not have a timeline on when that appeal will be discussed by the Executive Committee.
The complainant wants a more severe penalty imposed for the TI.

This information comes from one of the complainants, who gave permission to the status of this action to all that may inquire.

Please also note that the RD may not comment on this action as it is still in progress, as specified in the Gov. Manual Sec. 1-6.5.F.2

Also any 'lynch mob' on DZ.com has nothing to do with me or USPA. I don't know if you know this, but anyone anywhere in the world can sign up here and post anything they want. The moderators are the ones that edit or remove posts.
I think Sangiro might take it as sort of a compliment that people like you might think dz.com runs USPA.

.......................

For Jason Upchurch

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If it is true that his ratings were pulled, I'd like to request that they be reinstated. I'm sure he learned the lesson.

The Governance Manual explains how someone may ask for ratings or membership back.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[vanpilot 0]

First of all try to stay focused on the issue. Lets start with this...skydiving is inherintly dangerous but you still do it right even if it does not kill you. What is at question here is an instructor being persecuted for performing a stunt through the incorrect channels and this forum jumping on the band wagon without proof of anything. Most saw a FRAME of video and based a judgemnet on that. SOme saw the video. So what. You are not a jury. Safe is defined as free from harm, danger or loss/depended on or protected. Do you think the student was in danger based on the TI's experiance, expertise and control in the video. P.S. Evel Knievel was a STUNTMAN, he earned a living by performing boisterous acts infront of large crowds.....If you hookturn are you safe? You still do it don't you. How many jumps did you say you had?

Jonathan

[vanpilot 0]

And I quote, "If you are in the region... write to your RD about it." Phreezone

Then you quote

I agree with you 100%.
I have heard from a number of jumpers about this situation. All of them say that they want to see the TI rating pulled.
I have asked people to email the Executive Committee or the full board and state their views and experiences with the said jumper.
You can easily email the entire USPA BOD at
Uspabod_AT_skydivehard.com replace _AT_ with @
You won't even be considered as a 'whistle-blower'. There is already a formal complaint filed that is currently in an appeal process. The FB already knows about this situation. They have been forwarded the following:

Riva *flv Viewer - needed for the links below

You are "makeithappen" right....how is that not beating the drum on a forum...Unprofessional

Jonathan

[MakeItHappen 15]

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And I quote, "If you are in the region... write to your RD about it." Phreezone

Then you quote

I agree with you 100%.
I have heard from a number of jumpers about this situation. All of them say that they want to see the TI rating pulled.
I have asked people to email the Executive Committee or the full board and state their views and experiences with the said jumper.
You can easily email the entire USPA BOD at
Uspabod_AT_skydivehard.com replace _AT_ with @
You won't even be considered as a 'whistle-blower'. There is already a formal complaint filed that is currently in an appeal process. The FB already knows about this situation. They have been forwarded the following:

Riva *flv Viewer - needed for the links below

You are "makeithappen" right....how is that not beating the drum on a forum...Unprofessional

Jonathan

As far as I know, only one person emailed the FB.
It's a mob I tell ya!

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[vanpilot 0]

jlmiracle,

Do you really believe that, how do you think the thread started and the USPA got involved,next you'll say BOD's don't read emails from RD's who don't read email's from the skydiving population.

It is the internet!...do you use it to gossip and slander those you would not say the same to their face. I guess using anonominity lets you say anything you want without repercussion or consequence...right.

Not only have I seen the videos I have seen many instructors all over the country do and try the same thing without the control exercised by Jacko. I have also seen instructors do far worse like improper harness fitting resulting in death. What is your comment on that?

I know what USPA's stand is. They will back the manufacturer no-one else who will back you when you are in a pickle.

Yes she is a NATIONAL director, who did not start the thread however is certainly not acting professionally by drumming support by jumpers on an internet forum. That is the whole point, there are SOP's for discipline they are not just made up as they go along.

[vanpilot 0]

Sure is with 18000 hits on the thread that it needed to be split. As a National Director maybe you can shed some light on us "little people"what dicipline has been issued?

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Sure is with 18000 hits on the thread that it needed to be split. As a National Director maybe you can shed some light on us "little people"what dicipline has been issued?

Let me get this right.
You don't know what, if anything, has happened and you are complaining about it? or are you just complaining that people post and read this thread?

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 7]

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His safety record in both impeccable

Sorry, but those Tandem videos do not show a focus on safety. Maybe nothing has happend but that does not mean it was a good idea. Kinda like driving drunk. Sure you might get away with it, but it is still not wise.

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His actions as a tandem instructor in both safety and performance are exempelary.

Again his JUDGEMENT was not as good as his performance.

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After his compliance this thread continued to snowball attracting the attention of narrowminded naysayers and 500 jump wonders with no iota of skydiving experiance commenting on and judging a safe competant instructor

I have a few more than 500 jumps, and some would say I have a clue about skydiving instruction as well.

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Does the USPA react this way with all its instructors who commit a misdemeanor.

YOU call it a misdemeanor...Others consider it a felony. The USPA, who is the governing body of the sport seems to think it was more than a misdemeanor as well.

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Most saw a FRAME of video and based a judgemnet on that

You don't need much more than that since it is clear what he was doing.

Hell, I like Jacko. And if he stopped doing these "stunts" then I realy don't have an issue. But lets not pretend that just because nothing bad happend that it was a good idea. And lets not forget that all those that claimed Stong liked the stunts, Strong is quoted to the contrary.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[feuergnom 22]

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Safe is defined as free from harm, danger or loss/depended on or protected.

i am certainly not into nitpicking, but with this statement you contradict yourself.
the "stunts" performed by the TI in question are inherently more dangerous than a "normal" skydive/tandem-jump.
if you deny this, you are either not trained as a TI or you lack the ability to see the possible outcomes
as to this day, nothing has happened. luckily!
but i am sure that if something had happened, there would be an even louder uproar and the skydiving world could consider itself lucky, if the turnout was less than another tandem-fatality

i have no doubt, that this TI has outstanding skills for flying such maneuvers requires them. but no matter what you say or think: they were not safe and not a wise/clever thing to perform on a day to day base.


edit to add: it was even more dumb to put this behaviour on public display on the website of the dz this TI works for. definitely not in the wake of two recent tandem-fatalities where the public is more likely to pay close attention on safety-issues concerning tandem-jumping. even more so as all this happened in sue-happy u.s.a. can you say negligent?

but what do I know with my barely over 600 jumps anyway if you dismiss safety-concerns just because they are worded by jumpers with low jumpnumbers, this displays a true skygod-like mentality.

second edit: so don't give me (or anyone else) more of the "skydiving is dangerous" crap... you are lying to yourself

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[jlmiracle 7]

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you'll say BOD's don't read emails from RD's who don't read email's from the skydiving population.

I said nothing about e-mails, I said they don't all frequent dz.com.

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have also seen instructors do far worse like improper harness fitting resulting in death. What is your comment on that?

They should have their ratings pulled.

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Yes she is a NATIONAL director, who did not start the thread however is certainly not acting professionally by drumming support by jumpers on an internet forum.

All Jan did was give people information. She gave people contact information for the BOD. She gave people more videos to show this was not a rare occurance.

What other means would you prefer that she uses to get support from other jumpers.

I support Jan and the USPA for making the decisions they did. I yelled kicked and screamed about it. Its competely unprofessional to use the student as a prop. The proof was in ALL the videos.

J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[vanpilot 0]

I know exactly the result the USPA issued, do you?
Again let me draw your attention to the way this was handled. He was asked to stop he complied. This thread started, investigations and allegations by the masses, directed by yourself, began. Read the threads on pages 2.3.4,6 and let me know what you think, objectively. The point is there are proper channels to applying dicipline in the community. If you are looking for a scapegoat to the recent tandem fatalities you are barking up the wrong tree and if that is the case then the USPA needs to re-evaluate the Tandem program and its certification. I am not saying what was shown should be acceptable, what I am commenting on is the direction and mediation used to accuse after said individual acknowledged and stopped doing maneuvers. THAT is the point. To say that I am complaining that people read this post is simply ignorant everyone has freedom to speech and information.

[Allballs 0]

Hi Johnno,
Totally agree with you.
Hey check out skydive Elsinores web site, Clearly a TI on that web site doing a "Jacko" stunt.......
JAN GET HIS RATING or be a hypocrit...

[vanpilot 0]

Ron the point I made was with reference to Jacko as a character for those who do not know him yet wish to hang him. My reference to 500 jump wonders implies those who comment strongly, do not have the facts or embellish on comments by others who do not know. You comment you like Jacko, he did stop, what is the issue then. This thread has seen to it that self-policing by the jumpers has now involved the governing body. That is the point.

[vanpilot 0]

Again stay focused on the issue and that is the method used to lay judgment. He was asked to stop he did. This thread resulted in further action at who's cost? The definition was used to show what "safe" is. I did not say at anytime what was shown was safe or even standard practice what was defined is the condition. Hook turning is inherently more dangerous shall we ban those too...they can be safely done though. Again I am not saying the video was safe I commenting on the history of the person. I am full aware of the possible outcomes of tandem skydives, which are far from "normal" to begin with. The certification process and ability of instructors out there is the result of incidents. Yes if things went wrong there would be an outcry. The point was he stopped before this thread. This thread induced furthur action on a compliant jumper. Edit to add for you... all dropzones display extreme shots its called advertising. I'll be willing to bet if you look at every dropzone you will see shots of non standard practice. I call out lowtime jumpers who do not have the facts or the knowledge not dissmissal of their opinion. Would you like to be regulated by a group that does not know anything about your activity?

and for your second edit....read the words I said skydiving is inherently dangerous, i.e .it has the potential for disaster, based on the conditions and actions of the jumper.

[labrys 0]

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The point was he stopped before this thread.

That doesn't seem right. This thread started in late July and he's still doing it in the August 7 video link posted earlier from ReaXstream.

Owned by Remi #?

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I know exactly the result the USPA issued, do you?

Yes, I am aware of an Interim Motion passed by the Executive Committee.
I do not agree with it.
Interim Motions are always brought before the FB at the next regularly scheduled meeting.
I do not believe that the IM, as currently stated, will pass approval of the FB.

If you are in contact with Mr. Jackson, please ask him to call or email me. I would be more than happy to discuss the situation with him. My contact info

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Again let me draw your attention to the way this was handled. He was asked to stop he complied. This thread started, investigations and allegations by the masses, directed by yourself, began.

This thread was started long before any elected USPA representative knew about it.
There were appointed USPA representatives that did know about it.

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Read the threads on pages 2.3.4,6 and let me know what you think, objectively.

Personally, I think his tandem rating ought to be revoked.

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The point is there are proper channels to applying dicipline in the community.

All those channels were used, except there was one channel that was bypassed, but that actually worked in favor of Mr. Jackson.

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I am not saying what was shown should be acceptable, what I am commenting on is the direction and mediation used to accuse after said individual acknowledged and stopped doing maneuvers. THAT is the point.

As far as I know, nothing posted to this thread was used by the EC in its decision for its interim motion.

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He was asked to stop he did. This thread resulted in further action at who's cost?

This thread was not what prompted further action.
(Sorry, Sangiro, but dz.com really does not have that much influence on the actions of USPA.)

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The point was he stopped before this thread.

Nope, that is not true.
This thread started Jul 26, 2006.
7 Aug 2006 - Ryan Meschez

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This thread induced furthur action on a compliant jumper.

Nope, not true either.

.................

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Hey check out skydive Elsinores web site, Clearly a TI on that web site doing a "Jacko" stunt.......
JAN GET HIS RATING or be a hypocrit...

Are you talking about this picture?

The legs-down maneuver is not what people objected to from a safety standpoint.
It is the move over to the side of the passenger that is an unacceptable hazard.

I really did like that little wave action Mr. Jackson did with his arms.
That was kool looking.


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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[vanpilot 0]

Funny thing is videos and photos can be attatched long after they were taken...modern technology the thing we can do nowadays.

[labrys 0]

So RealXStream is in on it too? That's the date they give on their web site.

Owned by Remi #?

[jlmiracle 7]

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Funny thing is videos and photos can be attatched long after they were taken...modern technology the thing we can do nowadays.

Are you familiar with the website ALL the videos are posted on? If not, you may want to familiarize yourself with it before you claim to know differently.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jokeshop 0]

Revoking ratings does not necessarily impact safety. Raising awareness of a known safety concern and taking positive action to educate those associated with it is the proper course of action. If the approach of revoking ratings for trying anything new was the standard in skydiving and aviation, we may not have many of the new dimensions of flight that we enjoy today. I know there were days where formations, freeflying, and swooping were all considered crazy. Perhaps we need to really look at what allegedly makes this style of tandem jumping unsafe rather than speculating. I would have to believe that with the number of people out there who have done unusual attitudes and stunts while performing tandems, we would have at least had one injury or fatality that could be directly related. I also know Jacko well and can concur with Jono's assessment. Perhaps we should focus ourselves on those who are dropping people out of harnesses and why those harnesses failed rather than trying to pull the livlihood of those who are obviously proficient at what they do. I openly admit that I have learned from many mistakes along the way in many disciplines. I am a better person for it and I pass that experience on to others. Many others benefit from the learning we get from making mistakes. There is an old saying in aviation: "Learn from the mistakes of others as you may not have time to make them all yourself". I encourage all who are reading this thread and concluding that a revokation of ratings is the proper approach to reconsider and write the USPA and the rig manufacturers to send an advisory of the safety concern and corrective action so that we can move forward with sharing our skills and knowledge. What ever happened to the skydiving community?

[pash 0]

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The Governance Manual explains how someone may ask for ratings or membership back.

Thank you Jan,

Do you or anyone else know whether or not ratings were actually revoked, and if so, by whom? USPA, Strong?

Respectfully,

Jason Upchurch

[Ron 7]

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would have to believe that with the number of people out there who have done unusual attitudes and stunts while performing tandems, we would have at least had one injury or fatality that could be directly related

It took 20 years for a Tandem pass to fall out of a harness. That does not mean it could not have happend. And there are plenty more tandem jumps than tandem stunts.

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I also know Jacko well and can concur with Jono's assessment.

And I know him as well and know he is a nice guy with a ton of skill....But I don't agree he should be allowed to do those kind of stunts.

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Perhaps we should focus ourselves on those who are dropping people out of harnesses and why those harnesses failed rather than trying to pull the livlihood of those who are obviously proficient at what they do.

Here is a neat idea....We do BOTH! If people jumped on the asses of those that ended up killing two passengers, then maybe we would have prevented those deaths.

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I encourage all who are reading this thread and concluding that a revokation of ratings is the proper approach to reconsider and write the USPA and the rig manufacturers to send an advisory of the safety concern and corrective action so that we can move forward with sharing our skills and knowledge. What ever happened to the skydiving community?

I never wanted his rating yanked...I wanted the act stopped. Which is why I asked several times if he stopped and how he took people asking him to stop.

I like the guy, I don't think he should have his rating pulled...But he needs to stop doing stunts with passengers. If you want to play student for him, then you two can do whatever the hell you want. But don't do stunts with people who do not understand the added risks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I made was with reference to Jacko as a character for those who do not know him yet wish to hang him.

I don't agree we should hang him...Thats why several times I asked if he quit or what attitude he had about the whole issue.

If he said, "Those posers don't know my mad skills, fuckem". Then I'd say pull his ratings.

If he said, "I guess it was not a good idea, I'll stop". Then I would have no issue.

But no one answered, all we got was folks like you defending his skills. That kinda led me to believe that you all thought it was a good idea. So now we needed the governing body to be brought in.

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You comment you like Jacko, he did stop, what is the issue then. This thread has seen to it that self-policing by the jumpers has now involved the governing body. That is the point.

I have no issue with Jacko if he stopped. My only issue is how some think this was a good idea and how they feel free to put a passenger into a higher risk situation and their is no way for the pass to know how much more risk is involved. Hell, we can't get the TI's to agree how much riskier it is.

I would LOVE for the rig companies and the USPA to make an official stand. And that is my point...nothing against Jacko, but I want the USPA to take a stand, and then hold EVERYONE to that standard.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumpinfool 0]

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Personally, I think his tandem rating ought to be revoked.

All those channels were used, except there was one channel that was bypassed, but that actually worked in favor of Mr. Jackson.

This thread was not what prompted further action.
(Sorry, Sangiro, but dz.com really does not have that much influence on the actions of USPA.)

that people like you might think dz.com runs USPA.
etc etc etc

No, DZ.com doesn't affect USPA NOR should USPA affect/ provoke the comments and opinions on this open forum.

Personally, I think that ongoing investigations and issues should be kept WITHIN the proper USPA channels until a solution is obtained.

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As far as I know, nothing posted to this thread was used by the EC in its decision for its interim motion.

BUT there are quotes from USPA board members on here that are quoted within ongoing lawsuits. Maybe we should be separating the general skydiving opinion from what the governing body is working on.

What ever happened to "I can't comment on ongoing investigations?" If you have an opinion and want to share with people that is fine. If you want to PM people to discuss the issue, that is fine. Other than that USPA, it's leaders, and discussion of current issues should happen in person or at a round table.
What happens if Jacko does loose his ratings and then decides that he wants to sue USPA because one of it's board members was posting here trying to ensure he couldn't use his ratings to earn a living?
Is it a long shot? Sure
Did anybody ever dream that a quote on here would end up in a lawsuit? No....but it has