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MikeFB2764

Good Idea? Bad Idea?

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I post anonymously because i until last week regularly did this with my students and rely on the money. I cannot afford to loose my job but feel very strongly on this matter. I will come out with "others" should this go any further.
Im sure jacko will find it hard to go work at other dzs after all of this.
AND YES PEOPLE DID WANT HIS RATING!!!!Did You skip through pages 2 and 3?? On one of the pages with all the attachments Jan tells people to send in formal complaints about Jacko . (Hoping to get a harder justice in the appeal)
Oh and another reason to be anonymous ..........just look at what we know now about you!!!!! And even if it is not true the damage is done it will still cast a doubt in peoples minds.

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If the judges were people who had never been skydiving, I'm not so sure you would come out on top.

And yes, (to jlmiracle) I think if the customer thinks the video is good, safety asside, then it is a good video. I don't see how you can judge it any other way.

If I shoot a video with sick artistic subtleties, that would wow the crowd at canes, but are completely lost on my South Jersey white trash customer, is it a good video?

I don't see how you can judge it by any other metric than what the person paying for it thinks. If you want to blast him for being unsafe, fine, but I say your claims that the video sucks are bullshit.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

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I cannot afford to loose my job but feel very strongly on this matter.



You think it was a good idea? USPA, Vector and Strong disagree.

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Im sure jacko will find it hard to go work at other dzs after all of this.



Nah. As long as he would not pull these kinds of stunts, I bet a large number of DZ's would take him.

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Oh and another reason to be anonymous



You have the right to stay anonymous...But you do realize that many people consider that to be the mark of a troll right?

Look, I know Jacko...Really good jumper. But what he was doing was not in the best interest of the student, and the student is the reason we do tandems.

Tandems are not places for the TI's to get their rocks off. And while he surely is skilled...It is not the safest way to perform a tandem jump. And the students do not know enough to be able to make an informed choice on if they allow it.

Thats all...It is not in the best interest of the student. If he changed his ways and stops doing this...Well I have no other issue.

Just like if you claim to have done the same thing, and now you stop doing it I have no issue with you.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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but I say your claims that the video sucks are bullshit.



To me, a good tandem video is about the student and not the bizarre behavior of the TM. As was stated by someone else, you can't even see the student face, the focus is on the TM. Why bother shooting video of a TM student when, according to you, all they want to see if the TM doing stupid shit.

j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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[ i hope this is resolved quickley and safely so we can again say i want to bring my friend here to have a first jump


Well that is just wonderful that you stick behind your own DZ when it is in question dont you think? Especially since you partake in some "safe" rituals yourself before you get on the plane. I am from CSC and I personally pride ourselves on our great safety record here.

Well anyways... I just felt like I should put in my two sense and leave it at that. The TI in question HAS stopped what he had been doing! Not only that I know personally that his students love him AND their videos! He is a great instructor and a great person.
The subject at hand "good idea? bad idea?" has been discussed and the proper actions have been taken. I think this thread is dead and we should all move on. ;)

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Obviously no other Ti's are going to come forward and admit to doing this move now!! Not now with all this going on.



Actually, you are wrong on that point. Today, I got an email from a TI that did admit to doing this maneuver and has been reading this thread. When I called him to get some more info, I learned that the DZ had changed its policy on these types of carnival rides several years ago. Jacko did not abide by the new policy. This particular TI also wants to see Jacko's TI rating pulled for at least a year.

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However as in previous posts you can look on the web and find other TI's doing this move..If that is the dzos havent already erased them.



Well, I don't have the time to wade thru the realxstream nav system to look at videos. Maybe you can provide some 'hints'.

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As far as i know most dzs have told the TI's to stop these manuevres since this all came about.



I think it's more like DZs have told TIs not to do this for several years, but there are some renegades still out there that want to do their thing because they are bored on tandem jumps.

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I bet though had you succeded in getting jackos ratings pulled, the mail box at USPAs headquarters would have been inundated with dvd, video footage of many TI's pulling this move.............



I think it will be quite the opposite. If nothing happens, then USPA will get inundated with emails.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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i don't want to see the dz ripped apart i want to see it safe. and i think that anyone who has a safety issue should be heard and the problem addressed. there is alot of unsafe things that go on at alot of dz's that i have been to. i have never been unsafe with a student and followed all guidelines set up by uspa and strong when doing tandems. as far as my solo jumps i haven't been in an unsafe position while jumping since my early days of jumping when andre , the dzo at the time in june of 98, put me staight on those issues. and if you were a currant jumper at csc you would know that . as i said earlier that i have done some things in the past that were stupid but when confronted by some of the dz staff and older jumpers i changed my ways. something that is badly missed and needed at csc again

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How many anonymous people are there now at csc.
You feel so strong about your dZ you won't even stand up for it in person. And why should he bring his peeps out to a place that treats him like crap. You leave Mark alone you here me.
And you accuse Mark of the same thing your husband does. Why would you do that to him????
Either of them...
lt
tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

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Again with this Great Instructor ,Great Person thing. You don't want me to bring up "Nice Guys" who now are infamous.

Anyway. Since you are from CSC. Can you tell my why he stopped doing it ??Since it is "blessed by Strong and whoever you guys quoted earlier". This might answer Ron's question on what his attitude is towards this mandatory stop or voluntary stop to this behaviour.

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Oh and another reason to be anonymous ..........just look at what we know now about you!!!!! And even if it is not true the damage is done it will still cast a doubt in peoples minds.

''


Those people wouldn't really be important then would they?????????????
Thanks for replying though. At least we can cross you off the csc trrollls list...
yo
tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

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You haven't seen my "where is my lip gloss" video.
Or my sleeping under the jumpsuits video.
Wouldn't it be cool to do a competition.
We all already have the evidence, lets find some judges and start submitting our vids. Or have the students send in theirs.
What a gas this would be in the winter.
Like a world favorite tandem video on tv.
We could make it a series...
lt
tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

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i don't want to see the dz ripped apart i want to see it safe. and i think that anyone who has a safety issue should be heard and the problem addressed. there is alot of unsafe things that go on at alot of dz's that i have been to. i have never been unsafe with a student and followed all guidelines set up by uspa and strong when doing tandems. as far as my solo jumps i haven't been in an unsafe position while jumping since my early days of jumping when andre , the dzo at the time in june of 98, put me staight on those issues. and if you were a currant jumper at csc you would know that . as i said earlier that i have done some things in the past that were stupid but when confronted by some of the dz staff and older jumpers i changed my ways. something that is badly missed and needed at csc again



Well Im glad we clarified that then. Sorry I misunderstood you.

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Fact is every organization has said this is a bad idea...From USPA to Strong...Vector has been saying this for years.

I know the TI...He is quite skilled. It is not his skills in question, but his judgement.

A tandem is for the student, not the TI. And we owe it to the student to have as safe a jump as possible for them, not to showboat our personal skills.

Any showboating should be from the student since they are the reason we are there.




How do you respond to TI's that do anything other than poised stable head high to the relative wind exits then?


I know of at least two TI/E's that have encouraged the back layout exit.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Sometimes instructors (any jumpers, really) reach a level of competence where they believe they have become invulnerable, or at least more immune to the problems



Unfortunatly, that is true to a certain degree...

Though I don't believe I'm invulnerable, I certainly believe to be more immune to some of the problems someone with (say) 20 or less jumps may encounter. I often jump in weather conditions (wind, visibility, turbulence) where I would insist that other less experienced jumpers stay on the ground, I can get away with smaller landing area's and more obstacles in the vicinity, I jump with a higher wingload than a student, am comfortable with lower exit altitudes or jumping without an AAD etcetera...

Elsewhere in the thread "Andyman" says he offered his opinion about what they were doing and was told that since he's no TI his opinion didn't matter and in general I believe that to be true also, harsh as that may sound...

I do think however that the majority of the 'certified meat haulers' DOES have a problem with loose lower connectors just for the sake of 'better video'.

Since 'better video' is a matter of taste and students tend to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from any footage where they are halfway recognizable whatever else is going on, it is perfectly OK to do as you please - though 'stealing the scene' may not be the nicest or most professional thing to do but it is, as such, NOT a safety issue. Filming the tandempair while looking into the sun also ruins the video but I think we can all agree that we rather have someone do that and be out of our way on opening than make the best footage in the world, right in the students well lit face yet slam into us when we release the drogue.

Jumping with the passengersharness attached in a way that deviates from the guidelines set forth by the manufacturer IS a safety issue...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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This has been a very long read, hasn't it? It's all got me to thinking about the first time I saw video of a guy doing this stuff down in florida a decade ago: Mike Hagendas (sp). The video was this same "pommel horse" routine and I don't know who brought it to Raeford, but we were all just shaking our heads saying what a bad idea we thought it was. That was a very long time ago. I had no idea people were still actually still doing that kind of stuff. While some other TM's might find it "stylish", it certainly does not show the student in his glory does it? I am pretty sure that's the reason students actually pay for video; to be the star of the show.

Take care, all

Chuck

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How do you respond to TI's that do anything other than poised stable head high to the relative wind exits then?


I know of at least two TI/E's that have encouraged the back layout exit.



Exits? I don't care as long as the equipment is set correctly and the drouge is out within 10 seconds and not used for stability.

There are exits I don't like and will not do them. But I know people who do them all the time just fine.

But there is a BIG difference between an exit with the gear worn correctly, and using the gear loose so you can do tandem freestyle IMO.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Hey there ol' loud one. I also think bad idea, but this 'isolated' incident/person doesn't make it bad DZ man. Give the guys involved a good whipping and bring them 'back to earth' but let the punishment fit the crime.

Cheers

Glen
Glen Vermeulen
www.skydivejoburg.co.za

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I bet though had you succeded in getting jackos ratings pulled


According to the rumor mill, it looks like somebody succeeded in getting Jacko's rating pulled. What I haven't heard is whether Strong did it or USPA. I figure with USPA and Bangs, they're going to be impotent, so it probably was Strong. Besides, Strong has a lot more to lose here.

So, can any of the CSC/Hinckley staff that have been posting anomynously please let us know the story?

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I bet though had you succeded in getting jackos ratings pulled


According to the rumor mill, it looks like somebody succeeded in getting Jacko's rating pulled. What I haven't heard is whether Strong did it or USPA. I figure with USPA and Bangs, they're going to be impotent, so it probably was Strong. Besides, Strong has a lot more to lose here.

So, can any of the CSC/Hinckley staff that have been posting anomynously please let us know the story?



You just created this screenname today, this is your first-ever post, you have Zero info in your profile, you bitch about people posting anonymously, then you proceed to slander Glenn by name while hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

Very courageous.

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Jan,

Is this how USPA deals with dicipline, by creating a lynching mob on DROPZONE.COM. I thought the USPA was there to GOVERN and protect those it serves, not crusify them by slandering reputations and ability on the internet like a bunch of whinning teenagers. I have known Steven Jackson for over 9 years both as an instructor and personally trained him as a commercial pilot. His safety record in both impeccable. His actions as a tandem instructor in both safety and performance are exempelary. He was reprimanded by the DZO and by request ceased to perform the STUNTS. After his compliance this thread continued to snowball attracting the attention of narrowminded naysayers and 500 jump wonders with no iota of skydiving experiance commenting on and judging a safe competant instructor. Does the USPA react this way with all its instructors who commit a misdemeanor. Remember the Regional Directors are elected by the jumpers to represent them. You are not elected to form opinions and orchestrate witch-hunts on the internet.

Jonathan Gordon

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... His actions as a tandem instructor in both safety and performance are exempelary.



thats a rather subjective statement. Many more feel that performing these "stunts" (your word) are far from safe. Just because he didnt kill anyone doing something risky doesnt mean he was safe... he was lucky.

Using your logic , allow me to make the following statement: "Evel Knievel is a safe individua."

If go out and juggle chain saws while standing over my infant and nobody gets hurt I am considered a safe person? In your mind do you have to actually get hurt or killed to be "unsafe" even though you were doing things that are considered by the majority to be unsafe?
Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO!

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Is this how USPA deals with dicipline, by creating a lynching mob on DROPZONE.COM.



Hardly. A good portion of the BOD's don't even look at dz.com.

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not crusify them by slandering reputations and ability on the internet like a bunch of whinning teenagers.



It is the internet.

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His actions as a tandem instructor in both safety and performance are exempelary.



Have you seen the video's?

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Does the USPA react this way with all its instructors who commit a misdemeanor.



DId you ask the USPA?

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Remember the Regional Directors are elected by the jumpers to represent them. You are not elected to form opinions and orchestrate witch-hunts on the internet.



Jan is a NATIONAL director. She did not start this thread.

J
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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