Coaches

[yjumpinoz 0]

This mainly applies to the smaller cessna DZ's. I have noticed that the new coaches rating has put low time jumpers in the position of molding our new free-fallers. What is concerning me is that most people transition from students to free-fliers. Is it a good idea to rely on them when they have spent little time learning how to belly fly? I am probably guilty of being old school with training, but is it going to be necessary to have coaches/instructors checked out in different disciplines? I know I would never be able to teach freeflying. I guess I am a little concerned about the future.

[rehmwa 2]

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necessary to have coaches/instructors checked out in different disciplines

It's smart to do that, but I'd hate to see it "required". Rather, those that can't do - shouldn't teach it out of common sense and safety.

But it's skydiving - people want to share what they know (or at least what they think they know - I'm guilty of it). And most of the time, it's a positive thing in the long run.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[yjumpinoz 0]

But do you think its safe to have someone molding a freefall student that has spent very little time on their belly?

[DJL 232]

They take the same test. Maybe the test should be harder if there's some concern?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[uponone 0]

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They take the same test. Maybe the test should be harder if there's some concern?

I agree, if they can pass AFF and then all the requirements for the 'A' license they should be more than competent on their bellies to start doing some FF'ing.

[rehmwa 2]

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But do you think its safe to have someone molding a freefall student that has spent very little time on their belly?

they should either realize that, or their DZO should recognize it. I'm not a big fan with "regulations" where common sense should prevail - seems redundant. and to be "safe" is a pretty minimal requirement - passing the 'coach' course requirements demonstrates that (mostly). I'm more concern about the quality of coaching a newbie can get.

However, new people mostly need someone that can: fall straight down to lay base, go to the newbie when the newbie needs it, pay attention and make positive comments.

I think a DZO should decide, on an individual basis who is good enough to take along new jumpers. Any 'certificate' or certification is interesting, but nothing replaces just recognizing who's good at it. Especially at the 'small' DZs like originally noted.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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They take the same test. Maybe the test should be harder if there's some concern?

I agree, if they can pass AFF and then all the requirements for the 'A' license they should be more than competent on their bellies to start doing some FF'ing.

His point was whether freefly-only (ack) skydivers are qualified to take on newbies and try to teach them belly skills. Not whether the new coach should be freeflying. I think the assumption is that "competence" on the belly is a bit more than just passing the AFF/A-lic goals. That's how I feel, the next stage in belly flying isn't more stability at pull - it's moving the student to mantis, snappy turns, learning precision and being very still.

It's the same in freeflying - you don't just learn how to get in a hunched over sit or pizza pan HD, you learn to lock a good body position, fly with the legs, and start doing high level moves. Though some never get past this either.

The rush to get to some kind of sloppy FF, IMO, robs a lot of good potential skydivers from moving to the cool stuff in both disciplines. And let's not even get into CrW - does anyone think a USPA certified "coach" should teach CrW just based on that qualification?

I think that if single Cessna DZs have jumpers that only participate in one discipline, then the DZ has bigger issues. But this happens when the DZ focuses on tandem and the up-jumpers can only do solos and two ways to 'fill the loads'. They will automatically gravitate to freeflying because you can never get a 4 or 5 way together for belly work, and, for me, if I have only a 2way, I'm freeflying. If I have 4, I'm spinning points, no contest either way.

In this case, getting the student to basic stability and then moving them to freeflying-only culture is likely just as well progressed with the coaches on hand who also made the same progression in that half education. They'll do fine for that purpose. If the student wants to get "real" belly coaching, it would take someone with more than just the USPA Coach rating to do that anyway and that's a completely different discussion.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[yjumpinoz 0]

Nice point on the CRW....When I was a student there were some great experienced jumpers to help mold me. That was in the RW only days. I just don't feel the same thing happening. I hate to see someone with a few hundred jumps that can't even fly. However I also think a lot has to do with the motivation of said student. They have the option of traveling and seeking out "professional instruction"

[rehmwa 2]

I think it was just a transition. You see a lot more jumpers out today than ever before that realize proficiency needs to be on all axis - belly, back, HD, upright (and canopy work - accuracy, various control disciplines) - these will be the best coaches in the end.

There will always be people that want to be good, and there will always be hack jumpers just having a good time with what they do. We need both in the sport.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GreenMachine 0]

Not sure if I agree about the correlation with dropzone size and jumper well roundedness...When I was coming up at a small to medium sized DZ, there were plenty of loads where the staff was working, the cool kids were freeflying, and I was going solo. Hence I had the choice do whatever I wanted on those jumps....luckily I was encouraged to use those skydives to learn my body in freefall.

Regarding freeflyers becoming coaches...If they ONLY freefly then I do not see how they could pass the evaluation jumps. I was required to lay base, accurately observe the mock-student's body position, maintain altitude awareness, all while giving hand signals and smiling.
On the flipside, in my opinion, a jumper who can turn 20 points on a 4 way on one jump, lead a track dive on the next, and then safely get a dock or two while freeflying on a 3rd jump.....well that person can fly their body and will probably be a great coach, if they can communicate well and enjoying teaching.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[riddler 0]

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What is concerning me is that most people transition from students to free-fliers.

It seems to me that it entirely dependent on the DZ. Some DZs have a "culture" of freeflying, in which students tend to go right from AFF to freeflying. Others have a culture of RW, with cleared-to-solo students gradually doing two-ways, then four-ways, etc on their belly.

As far as anyone teaching coach course, if they can't belly fly, they won't pass the eval jumps. If they can belly fly, they'll pass and should be allowed to coach. I've only been coaching for three years, but my freefall experiences were mostly about falling straight down and observing people - it doesn't take much belly skill to be able to do that. I suppose if you've got video, then you'll have to be able to stay close enough to shoot video. But the biggest challenge for me was learning to establish the fall-rate. It might be nice to see more of that in the coach course.

Coaching is a lot more than teaching belly flying. I had several students ask me to teach them to freefly, and I referred them to other freefly coaches, since I do RW. My own style of coaching involved working a lot on canopy stuff, since I think that's the most important thing to learn after AFF. Other students want to talk about video, etc. Some even are curious about swooping - of course I discourage them at an early age, but I do try to get them talking to the better swoopers so they at least have a path for learning and don't try to go off on their own and learn the hard way.

Maybe there should be different coach ratings - canopy coach, RW coach, freefly coach, etc. I'd hate to see USPA charge fees for all these coach ratings, but it would be good for students to know what they are getting on a coach jump.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Reginald 0]

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If they can belly fly, they'll pass and should be allowed to coach.

Let me change that to "should be allowed to earn a coaches rating" I don't believe that everyone that gets a rating should be allowed to do the job. That rating means a MINIMUM skill level has been demonstrated nothing more.

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I've only been coaching for three years, but my freefall experiences were mostly about falling straight down and observing people - it doesn't take much belly skill to be able to do that

I have to disagree. Truly falling straight down is much harder than most people think! In fact it may be one of the hardest thing to do. Also, observing means seeing exactly what the student is doing right and wrong and being able to explain it to them and teach them how to improve on the next dive. It takes a LOT of skill to be able to do that properly!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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...What is concerning me is that most people transition from students to free-fliers...

Ya know, they don't have to transition from student-status to free-flying... nor given the impression that's the way it should go... students can get off of student-status and get into RW, but hey, I'm just being old-school...

[yjumpinoz 0]

I guess that was where I was going with this. Not everyone can teach. I just have trouble when people are slipping through the cracks. I see "coached" jumpers that in my opinion should still be students. I am old school and I like the old system.

[riddler 0]

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I don't believe that everyone that gets a rating should be allowed to do the job.

Interesting philosophy - and I don't say that in a negative way. I'm curious, because I just got my AFF rating, and I'm finding that my home DZ wants me to do some additional jumps to make sure I'm good enough to do AFF there.

It does make me curious. Many people feel that the USPA courses (Coach Course included) do not provide adequate testing to determine if someone can or should teach. I see the AFFI as a license to learn about AFF - I feel like I've already demonstrated that I have the ability to learn and the ability to save a new jumper's life if required. Now I just want to learn good ways to teach AFF. But why go through yet another process to prove I'm good enough? Wouldn't it be better to just raise the USPA standards?

There are skydivers who feel that the standards for passing USPA courses aren't high enough. Well, if the majority of people feel that way, can't we change it? I would be interested to know if the majority really do feel that way? Maybe time for a poll

I know that until last year, the AFFI rating standards were lower - 51% to pass the eval jumps and ground preps. Last year that was raised to 75%. So in some cases, we already have changed the requirements. And I've heard plenty of people say that they've made the jumps easier.

At some point, I feel we've got to trust the course directors to make sure that only qualified people are given the rating. I know my Coach Course and AFFI course directors were both tough and fair, and I feel like I'm a much better skydiver for taking those courses.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD