T.I.'s Do you or would you allow your camera flyer to grip the students chest strap on exit

[steveorino 7]

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I have even used it as a tool to get better exit shots from some video guys who simply lacked the timing to get a decent first half of the skydive. Criticize if you like, but hey, I am comfortable with it. The "in your face" exit shots you can get with it are fantastic.

Chuck

Chuck:

I'd never criticize you, but I think there has got to be a better way to get a vidiot up to speed on exit shots that hanging on to you. If a guy has 500 jumps and wants to jump video, I bet you could teach him when to exit without relying on hanging on. How else will he learn and what may be the results when he tries that on another TM???

steveOrino

[JohnnyD 0]

19 is a great picture of the TI. Unfortunately, that is not the person paying you to take pictures.

[Erroll 49]

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19 is a great picture of the TI. Unfortunately, that is not the person paying you to take pictures.

Looking at the JM's
geeking in both pictures, don't be too sure of that!

[steveorino 7]

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19 is a great picture of the TI. Unfortunately, that is not the person paying you to take pictures.

You're kidding me right? You fault (or find criticism) in the fact the TM knows where the camera is and the student is ground fixated??? What's a vidiot to do??

steveOrino

[LawnDart21 0]

Videographers leaving linked with Tandem pairs is an accident waiting to happen, that's for sure. If the videographer has a premature deployment on exit while under the tandem pair, they are all (mostlikely) going in together.

Just like the fatality of the TI where the videographer popped up to video the deployment. I'm sure those videos looked really cool until the time it killed the TI.

The same thing will eventually happen to a tandem/video pair that leave linked together. It's not "if" it's "when". And when it does happen, it will either be covered up, (ie, "they didn't leave linked", even though they did, and the video footage will disappear), or too many people will have seen it to cover it up, and it will come out as another senseless/preventable fatality. Either way the practice will then come to an end.

The only thing that stops reckless behavior in this sport is a fatality, until that occurs, it will continue to be done.

I would not presume to speak for John Sherman, Ted Strong or Bill Booth, but I would be interested to know thier thoughts on tandem masters that allow videographers to leave linked with the tandem pair.

edit to add, with all of the potential liability in skydiving, I'm surprised that DZOs would allow such a thing to occur on thier DZ. On a less severe level, the video camera helmet has lots of pointy metal. WHat happens when a videographer releases a linked exit and corks into the tandem pair, cutting the face of the student. What if the student needed plastic surgeru to seal the gash. Who's going to end up in court, waiver or no waiver?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Fast 0]

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19 is a great picture of the TI. Unfortunately, that is not the person paying you to take pictures.

You're kidding me right? You fault (or find criticism) in the fact the TM knows where the camera is and the student is ground fixated??? What's a vidiot to do??

Meh, I never said I was perfect. I picked that picture to post because of the look on the TM. I can only do so much with a student that only looks at the ground. The ironic thing was that in freefall that girl couldn't stop looking at me and the guy was totally ground fixated. There is probally more that I can do to get out in front of them, but thats something I am working on. I have only been shooting tandem video for a little over a year.

Though all of this is just academic to the main point of my post. If you can't be in the right place, the right place being one that is safe and allows you to take an acceptable picture, without holding on to the TM you should do some more practice before shooting tandem video.

As for what I think is over the top in regards to what Tandem Masters do when there is video present that "takes away" from the video... Well, we could have another whole thread about that. I edit my own videos and for the most part I like when they don't do a whole lot up there behind the student.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[livendive 8]

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Videographers leaving linked with Tandem pairs is an accident waiting to happen, that's for sure. If the videographer has a premature deployment on exit while under the tandem pair, they are all (mostlikely) going in together.

Just like the fatality of the TI where the videographer popped up to video the deployment. I'm sure those videos looked really cool until the time it killed the TI.

The same thing will eventually happen to a tandem/video pair that leave linked together. It's not "if" it's "when". And when it does happen, it will either be covered up, (ie, "they didn't leave linked", even though they did, and the video footage will disappear), or too many people will have seen it to cover it up, and it will come out as another senseless/preventable fatality. Either way the practice will then come to an end.

[devils advocate mode]How many linked up-jumper exits do you think there have been over the last 40 years? And how many fatalities due to a premature deployment during a linked exit? Compare these numbers with the number of tandems that you think leave linked with a videographer.[/devils advocate mode]

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[LawnDart21 0]

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How many linked up-jumper exits do you think there have been over the last 40 years?

It only has to happen once.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[diablopilot 2]

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Lot's of "no's" here, but I say "yes." I am not concerned about getting zoo'ed on exit by any of the guys that I allow to exit in this manner. On the contrary, I have even used it as a tool to get better exit shots from some video guys who simply lacked the timing to get a decent first half of the skydive. Criticize if you like, but hey, I am comfortable with it. The "in your face" exit shots you can get with it are fantastic.

Chuck

Ditto. It does require TI's to exersize judgement about who they let video them, and hold fast to those decisions no matter what the pressure put on them is.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Liemberg 0]

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How many linked up-jumper exits do you think there have been over the last 40 years?

With a wrestling whuffo strapped to the belly of one of the participants who wants to throw a drogue before reaching main deployment altitude?

Few.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[efs4ever 3]

Any Vidiot who can fly up to you on his ass and hand the student his legs can probably do it safely.

This was shot by Jim Slayton

___________

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[efs4ever 3]

This was shot by Jim Slaton (Sorry about mis spelling )

______________

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[swoopgaz 0]

All i'm gonna say is if a vidiot needs to hang on to get good exit shots then they shouldn't be there filming. Regardless of how good the camera flyer is i'm not gonna jepordise my safety or my passengers safety by letting someone hang on. there just seems to be too many cons than pros for me on this subject. Dare i say it but if you want the good exit shots you can always go H/C.

[Shyandinnocent 0]

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How many linked up-jumper exits do you think there have been over the last 40 years?

With a wrestling whuffo strapped to the belly of one of the participants who wants to throw a drogue before reaching main deployment altitude?

My piont exactly...
I am quite sure thet there are TM/Vidiot pairs out there that can perform this w/o a hitch, and quite safely. But the unpredictable can happen when you throw a completely freaked out, sensory overloaded wuffo into the mix. Personally, I stay the hell outta their reach (am vidiot, not TM).

Direct quote from an incident report printed in the recent Australian Skydiver mag: "F licence jumper (meaning he has more than 1000 jumps): On a 4way exit, one of the other jumpers set up on the inside of the stack up grasped his cutaway pad which was inadvertently pulled on exit."

And these were experienced skydivers. (everybody OK btw). I always stay out of their reach, and when I cant (in the plane, for instance) I cover my handles with one arm. Have had my cutaway released by student (AFF) in the plane once, and ain't going there again...

Stay safe

It's never too late for a low turn!

[diverup13k 0]

Just a quick question.1)ever have a passenger go squirrel on you?(fighting,kicking then get board stiff??
Do any of us know exactly how that exit is really going to go off?I mean honestly 1000 perfect exits in a row then wham out of the clear blue perfect chaos for that half second that feels like eternity.
So my answer would be HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sockpuppet 0]

I think you all missing a (note: not the) point.

Grabbing anyones chest strap (esp: females) is just a whole can o' worms that just doesnt need opening.

------
Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I must quantify my answer by saying that it's not the chest strap that I let guys hold on exit; it's the left main lift web. The video guy exits back-to-the-wind and pops up a bit. This keeps the entire formation stable to the relative wind on exit. If you are not cool with it; great. I am fine with it and so are most of the video guys/tandem instructors on the Golden Knights.

[NelKel 0]

The video guy exits back-to-the-wind and pops up a bit. This keeps the entire formation stable to the relative wind on exit.<<<

Or ..When The video guy exits back-to-the-wind it can allow the formation gain stability in a head down position, if the video flyer plants his head and spine in to the prop blast at first and the T-I just lets the thing fly and gain speed the "chunk" can roll in to it.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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The video guy exits back-to-the-wind and pops up a bit. This keeps the entire formation stable to the relative wind on exit.<<<

Or ..When The video guy exits back-to-the-wind it can allow the formation gain stability in a head down position, if the video flyer plants his head and spine in to the prop blast at first and the T-I just lets the thing fly and gain speed the "chunk" can roll in to it.

Which, by the way, is totally acceptable with my Racer.

[Jumpnfun2 0]

No.
I'm not a TM, I'm a Tandem vidiot.
No.
Quoting the words of one of the guys that taught me to skydive, is a TM, a S/L I, an amazing rigger, etc....etc..
"This is NOT a F%@#$* RW jump!! "
Being cool, getting a cool shot, at the expense of that student's safety, and the TM's safety, is just not cool.
I've had several experiences where the TM decided that it would be OK for someone else to come out with us. Very not cool. I've been hit twice now in FF by some idiot trying to get in the shot, not paying attention to where I was, etc.
The only people that should be on a tandem with video are the student, the TM, and the vidiot. That vidiot should in no way compromise the airspace of that student. A cool shot is not worth a life.
If the vidiot has a problem keeping in proximity to the tandem on exit, and I mean safe proximity, that person needs a whole lot more jumps before they try doing video on a tandem again. Above or below is just not allowed for any reason. Ever.
Just my 2 cents worth.
BS,
Sue E.

[BASE1036 0]

My vidiot (I believe the same one Freefalle is speaking of) uses my passengers chest strap to keep from falling out of the plane before the count. We jump a cargo 206, with no step or handles. He VERY rarely has grip even after my head starts to clear the door.
To answer the question, if the vidiot was trying to use us (by docking on my passengers chest strap) to adjust fall rate, I would tell him to take a hike. But in this case, I understand what he is trying to do.

Daniel
Protect Yourself and Your Loved Ones
Tasers - Pepper Spray - Stun Guns and more!
www.dallassecuritysupply.com

[toolbox 0]

The chances of the vid having a preme would seem to be much greater with a brand new student face to face with them on exit. We are talking about tandem students here. They do not get a whole lot of training in most cases,and are more likely to grab onto shit (handles and what not) without even realizing what they are doing. So I must agree 100% with you.

[toolbox 0]

Lolipop flip flop green jelly twist.
It's all fun and games until the pilot chute hits ya in the eye. I guess alot of these people have never seen a scary preme yet. Ha Ha you Rat Fink. How was canukian ville,I meen Canada.

[dusm12 0]

Technically it isa RW jump. And to ad to "Base's" statement i use the chest strap just before exit when it's time to launch i let go and push off with big toe that's curled onto the doors edge. The 206U with door behind wing does not allow for steps to be added outside plus there is a tail to contend with b/c of closeness to door and no u cant reach the wheel to stand on plus prop blast and did i mention nothing to brace/hold on to. It amazes me how in this sport many are prejudice to evolve for the situation no thanks to u guys how far this sport has come.

[ast4711 0]

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The 206U with door behind wing does not allow for steps to be added outside plus there is a tail to contend with b/c of closeness to door and no u cant reach the wheel to stand on plus prop blast and did i mention nothing to brace/hold on to.

Well we have a 206 soloy (not shure if U) with door behind wing and we have a foot-setp outside. I know that it needed to be certified by the time, but I could make the contact to one of our pilots who was involved in the design and certification for this mod to anyone interested. It is approved at least in Germany and I know that some other plane-operators copied this design.
The footstep is completely removable and does not interfere with the normal cargo door when removed.

We also have bars on the roof and a vertical one in front of the door. I did hundreds of videos from this plane and feel very comfortable with the step and the bars.

(see attachment) Sorry, no better pic right now.

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de