Stilleto as a Student Canopy

[Ron 7]

You talk a lot about Brian and his recommendations... But, you don't seem to follow them either.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

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Canopy Design
Add one size for Fully Elliptical Canopies
-F.E.C. = More than 20% wing taper
-Fully Elliptical Canopies are not permitted for jumpers with less than 300 jumps.
-Prior to transitioning from a non-elliptical to elliptical planform, all jumpers should make at least 100 on a non-elliptical parachute of the same wingloading, or as dictated by the Canopy Transition Course Instructor.

So you don't seem to listen to him either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pirana 0]

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I am in that ballpark for jump numbers and I could not agree more.

I am lucky to have some guys in the 5,000-10,000 jump range who have the patience to listen to my questions and take the time to explain why they are (or are not) reasonable things to try.

Back to the Stilletto. Why does anyone still buy one?

Kudos to you DocPop. The people I watch out for the most are the new to mid-skilled jumpers that seem to deny, debate, and sometimes outright argue with the advice of the truly skilled veterans.

One of the coolest things about being in a sport with such small numbers is that not only do we get constant free regular advice from, but we also get to regularly jump with such incredibly skilled veterans. It's like being a sandlot baseball player and having people like Derek Jeter regularly show up to play a little second base, and offer tons of free coaching to boot. AMAZING!

On the Stilleto; I've found it to be a perfect match for my abilities and desires. I don't swoop but the recovery from dives is fast, the drive to get back is way cool, responses are quick and fun but within my ability, it flat turns with nearly no loss of altitude, the openings are buttery soft; and with all that, I still get some really neat turf-surfing that is (again) within my ability to handle. It has only spun me up a bit maybe 5 or 6 times in over 300 jumps, with none requiring a cutaway. I gotta admit though that the 1st time it did that was pretty darn exciting.

Different mixes of canopy characteristics for different people is all I can say.

Best to you with all your learning.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[robinheid 0]

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I DON'T HOOK TURN. Enough said. Don't with thread. Peace out and Blue ones.

Yo dude, you make more sense than anyone on this thread. They are simply so overwhelmed by their bias against anyone with "low" jump numbers having anything remotely valid to say that they totally miss pretty much everything you said, and went off on tedious polemical tangents rife with unwarranted assumptions and unsupportable premises, all camouflaged by relentless references to their own allegedly superior knowledge and experience.

It was really pretty funny to watch you kick all of their butts... and they didn't even notice.



Now to add some facts to this discussion:

1) SDC never used Stilettos for first-jump students. Where this notion comes from is probably due in significant part to fuzzy memories about a Roger Nelson interview or article I did for SKYDIVING Magazine about his Sabre program (14,000 student jumps, two ambulance rides). Roger talked about how if he had his druthers, he'd put them on Stilettos instead of Sabres because the Stiletto was a superior canopy. I can't recall why he didn't but that is mentioned in the interview/article too.

2) I don't know where "Ron" learned to do math, but 120 pounds + 30 pounds for gear and clothes = 150 pounds divided by 190 = .789 wing loading. It's 160 + 30 = 190 = 1:1 unless somewhere in there I missed a mention that you jumped a 150.

3) I currently jump a Stiletto 135, loaded at 1.3. It is a perfect canopy for me right now because I'm not jumping enough these days to feel comfortable on my FX-104, much less my Velocity 84. I have a lot of jumps on that canopy and it twists up now and then, but it does not spin up -- because of the lighter wing loading, it turns slowly or flies straight as I untwist. It also, as I believe "Ron" said, has a great glide ratio (esp. if you use rear risers instead of light brakes to flatten it out more), has a quick recovery arc, and a wide flare range with a lot of room for adjustment. Also, I got my PRO rating on this canopy in ten straight jumps when I had only 11 total jumps on the canopy when I started, so it's an exceptional demo canopy because you can land it on a dime and it can still penetrate significant winds.

4) One of the self-absorbed "experts" on this thread posed the polemical response to to your "I don't hook turn" comment with some nonsense about what if someone cuts you off at 50 feet and you have to "panic" turn or some other such silly objection to your flat statement that you don't hook turn. Well, gee, aside from the fact that this polemical hypothetical is akin to the whuffo question "well, what happens if your reserve doesn't open either," there are two other points: 1) if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place; and 2) as the creator of the Stiletto John LeBlanc likes to say, "never forget that you can flare in a turn and turn in a flare," which thereby solves the dilemma posed by the whuffo-like hypothetical.

4) Dude, you make an excellent point that instead of downsizing as jumpers get more experienced, they should move to a higher-performance canopy with the same wing loading, so that you can continue learning more stuff without giving up the safety margin represented by the higher number of square feet aboe your head. I don't recall if you thought this up yourself or were quoting someone else, but it makes perfect sense to me and I don't recall a single person acknowledging this to be a sound idea -- or arguing against it. As someone condescendingly "reminded" you, the physics don't change and all the hoo-hah aside, more square feet above your head is essentially always better when you make those inevitable mistakes that come no matter how many jumps you have -- or how smart you think you are because you have more jumps than the person you're talking down too. I can tell you that two friends of mine who were very experienced jumpers with thousands of jumps and mad skills to boot are now dead because they refused to listen and learn from people with fewer jumps than they had, and not nearly the skillset, but who nevertheless knew stuff that they didn't. Instead, they showed the same 'tude displayed by some of the jump-number gods on this thread.

Now for some full-circle final perspective on this thread:

When Roger Nelson 20+ years ago decided to put his first-jump students on squares, he had to get a waiver from the US Parachute Association, which at the time had a BSR that no one should jump a square until they had at least 100 total skydives.

Naturally, the UPSA board of directors freaked out at this proposition and basically said all the things the jump-number gods parroted in this thread about you jumping a Stiletto.

So Roger asked the BOD what canopies they jumped and of course the answer was "squares." So then he asked why, and of course the answer was "because they are better than rounds."

To which Roger replied, "Okay, I'll put my students back on rounds when you all go back to jumping rounds."

He got his waiver.

So all of this male cow poop hurled at you is just the same old male cow poop that's been hurled for year upon year upon year. But that's to be expected. As Carl Boenish liked to say about new ideas:

There are three stages:
1) It can't be done.
2) It's too dangerous.
3) We knew it all the time.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[pirana 0]

I think the bias is against a bad idea - not a stubborn newbie. But a newbie that shows enough stubbornness might start feeling a bias about that also.

The issue in the OP is about a Stilleto as a student canopy. It is a bad idea. Four pages of chatter about it, mixed with a few tangent thoughts doesn't change that.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[kallend 1,623]

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I DON'T HOOK TURN. Enough said. Don't with thread. Peace out and Blue ones.

Yo dude, you make more sense than anyone on this thread. They are simply so overwhelmed by their bias against anyone with "low" jump numbers having anything remotely valid to say that they totally miss pretty much everything you said, and went off on tedious polemical tangents rife with unwarranted assumptions and unsupportable premises, all camouflaged by relentless references to their own allegedly superior knowledge and experience.

It was really pretty funny to watch you kick all of their butts... and they didn't even notice.



Now to add some facts to this discussion:

1) SDC never used Stilettos for first-jump students. Where this notion comes from is probably due in significant part to fuzzy memories about a Roger Nelson interview or article I did for SKYDIVING Magazine about his Sabre program (14,000 student jumps, two ambulance rides). Roger talked about how if he had his druthers, he'd put them on Stilettos instead of Sabres because the Stiletto was a superior canopy. I can't recall why he didn't but that is mentioned in the interview/article too.

Absolutely correct. I learned at SDC when students jumped Sabres with BOC deployment (which was still contrary to the BSRs at that time - another of Roger's ideas that subsequently became the norm). A bunch of SDC's AFP graduates bought Stilettos as first canopies (at Roger's recommendation) and as far as I know we all managed them perfectly well. I put some 1600 jumps on my Stiletto before retiring it after taking up wingsuiting. Would a Stiletto be a good choice for someone transitioning from a Manta 288 rather than a Sabre 170? No.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[robinheid 0]

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The issue in the OP is about a Stilleto as a student canopy. It is a bad idea. Four pages of chatter about it, mixed with a few tangent thoughts doesn't change that.

True enough, but that is due not only to the fact that even a lightly loaded Stiletto is generally "too much" for a student but because the psychotic structure of our current training system puts learning freefall fun ahead of of learning parachute survival, regardless of what the new training syllabus says.

In any dangerous endeavor, you learn survival skills first, then the fun stuff.

Our sport does it backwards... and that's why so many people -- highly experienced and inexperienced alike -- kill themselves under canopies for which their jump numbers (but not knowledge base) supposedly qualify them to jump.

And what's ironic to the silly extreme about this freefall-obsessed training system is that it not only shortchanges parachute survival training, it screws up the freefall fun training!

In fact, one of Roger's main reasons for going to ZP canopies was that students could then jump a container system that fit them, so that when they did their freefalls they were flying their bodies, and not also fighting around a rig that stuck out into the airflow because it's so big because they jump massive canopies because current training is freefall fun-obessed instead of parachute survival focused. And a key reason Roger succeeded is that his course did in fact spend a lot more time on teaching people to navigate and fly their canopies.

So instead of nitpicking which canopies are or are not appropriate student canopies, we should be discussing the 900-pound pile of male cow poop in the room that is the counterintuitive and utterly psychotic training structure that makes it "a bad idea" to use anything but monster canopies and the monster rigs that go with them.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

I was never arguing the Stiletto as a student canopy. Then again I think even you D licensed skygods are still fucking students and the second you think you are not I would prefer not to jump with you. I had 90 something jumps before I jumped a Stiletto. Not massive experience I know, but not like I was just off fucking radio status either. As far as the cut off comment well I don't know what kind of instructors you had, but mine made sure I was very well versed in flat turns before they checked that off my A license proficiency card. As far as the Brian Germain downsizing chart response..... well lets see my exit weight is 190....his chart says at 100 jumps I should be at 190.....the hundred non elliptical jump thing...well I had 90. Fucking sue me close enough. Should I post the e-mail Brian sent me when I asked him about my canopy choice? Didn't act like I was a suicidal son of a bitch with low numbers who was gonna kill himself. He did have a word of caution which I follow. He advised to never pull bellow 3. Hell I always do at 4. Anyway I missed typed before. I said don't with this thread.....I meant I am done with this thread. Once again Blue Skies and peace out.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Oh yeah forgot to respond to "Ron's" ego comment and how I apparently contradicted myself. Look I don't have a big ego so naturally I don't want say I am above average. However I have the ability to take instruction very well. The military beat that into my skull pretty good. I guess if you want to try to squeeze it out of me I guess I am better than average. Not because of skill but because of an ability to apply instruction. It has to do with the skill of applying what is taught to me, not a natural physical ability over someone else. I have negatives like everyone else to though I am a "stubborn" newbie like was posted I guess. Oh yeah and I hate mushrooms. Lol

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[theonlyski 3]

You asked about having Stillettos as a student canopy, the general idea is obviously that most people wouldn't do it.

Your question has been answered... the rest is just pissing contest about what you are doing. Go, jump your stilletto and I really do hope that you have great openings and awesome landings.

Shouldnt you be out jumping? Its the weekend, I WISH i could go.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Oh yeah one last thing "RON" just because I can't help myself. You said "mutually inclusive" or some other term where you tried to sound very smart about how I think I am better than someone with twice my jump numbers. Let me pose an "inquiry" (so I can sound all smart myself) what if that jumper with 300 jumps has them spread out over a 4 year period when I have my 115 in 10 months? Does he really have twice my experience? Do you believe in CURRENCY? Stop trying to cookie cutter shit by jump numbers because you have a high number of them. It isn't a black an white thing brother.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[airtwardo 6]

So instead of nitpicking which canopies are or are not appropriate student canopies, we should be discussing the 900-pound pile of male cow poop in the room that is the counter intuitive and utterly psychotic training structure that makes it "a bad idea" to use anything but monster canopies and the monster rigs that go with them.

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Where I jump, the students go out on javelins under canopies loaded around 1:1 ~would you consider that monster canopy?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[robinheid 0]

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So instead of nitpicking which canopies are or are not appropriate student canopies, we should be discussing the 900-pound pile of male cow poop in the room that is the counter intuitive and utterly psychotic training structure that makes it "a bad idea" to use anything but monster canopies and the monster rigs that go with them.

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Where I jump, the students go out on javelins under canopies loaded around 1:1 ~would you consider that monster canopy?

No I wouldn't -- I would consider that to be an outSTANDing DZ and i congratulate the DZO and staff for understanding what Roger was trying to get across. Do I assume correctly that your DZ proportionately ramps up the canopy/equipment training component to accommodate the heavier wing loading?

And are they jumping f-111 or ZP? tell us more!

Unfortunately, DZs like yours are still the exception rather than the rule, but it's nice to know that SDC is no longer the only one.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[timmyfitz 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

If I'm "flying right" then I should have very little concern about other people that may cut me off at the last few seconds before landing, even though I saw them from far away? How did that work out for Roger, who was "flying right".

[davelepka 4]

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Look I don't have a big ego so naturally I don't want say I am above average.

However, your canopy choice is clearly not average for your experience level. That's the whole point of the discussion, if your canopy choice was closer to 'average' there would be no discussion. That said, if the canopy choice is above average, wouldn't the pilot also need to be above average for the system to reliably work?

The agrument then, of course, would be if your skills were indeed above average, and while you may have a hard time making that judgement, as your frame of reference doesn't extend beyond what you know (aka, your skills), an experienced jumper familiar with your abilities could confirm that your skills are above average.

Do you see the problem here? You're clearly putting yourself in a position where above average skills may be required, but you insist that you don't think of yourself as above average.

If you want to hang your balls out there and push the limits, just say so. Aknowledge what you're doing and that you understand the consequences of your actions. Don't hide behind a cleary not-average choice and insist that your assesment of the situation as being 'acceptable' is the real truth, and that the majority of jumpers, who see it as 'unacceptable', are in the wrong.

[Ron 7]

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Yo dude, you make more sense than anyone on this thread.

And here is the one guy that the young guy looks for for verification and validation of his less than smart acts.

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I don't know where "Ron" learned to do math, but 120 pounds + 30 pounds for gear and clothes = 150 pounds divided by 190 = .789 wing loading. It's 160 + 30 = 190 = 1:1 unless somewhere in there I missed a mention that you jumped a 150.

In school... the same place you need to go to learn to read.

If you go to PD's website, it lists what sizes and wingloadings are appropriate for the Stiletto.

They don't recommend the Stiletto 190 until *INT* experience and then only with an exit weight of 152 pounds.

Exit weight of 152 pounds with 30 pounds of gear and clothes = 122 pounds for the jumper.

See if you take 152 - 30 you get 122. Now I said "about 120 pounds"... But I did say "about", when I could have said 122 pounds exactly.

So go read it again.....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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As far as the Brian Germain downsizing chart response..... well lets see my exit weight is 190....his chart says at 100 jumps I should be at 190.....the hundred non elliptical jump thing...well I had 90.

Actually... No... you only read what you wanted to read and ignored the part I bolded.

Here is is again:

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

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Canopy Design
Add one size for Fully Elliptical Canopies
-F.E.C. = More than 20% wing taper
-Fully Elliptical Canopies are not permitted for jumpers with less than 300 jumps.
-Prior to transitioning from a non-elliptical to elliptical planform, all jumpers should make at least 100 on a non-elliptical parachute of the same wingloading, or as dictated by the Canopy Transition Course Instructor.

Here is the point you ignored last time again : "Fully Elliptical Canopies are not permitted for jumpers with less than 300 jumps"

Like I said, you are ignoring anything that does not support your position, just so you can feel better about your selection.

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Oh yeah forgot to respond to "Ron's" ego comment and how I apparently contradicted myself. Look I don't have a big ego so naturally I don't want say I am above average.

You have said you are above average over and over.... You even used those EXACT words: "I guess I am better than average."

If you think you are above average... Then man up and say you think you are above average and therefore should have a separate set of rules apply to you and your mad skillz.

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Oh yeah one last thing "RON" just because I can't help myself. You said "mutually inclusive" or some other term where you tried to sound very smart about how I think I am better than someone with twice my jump numbers.

If you think "Mutually exclusive" is a big word,.... I don't know what to tell you.

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Let me pose an "inquiry" (so I can sound all smart myself) what if that jumper with 300 jumps has them spread out over a 4 year period when I have my 115 in 10 months? Does he really have twice my experience? Do you believe in CURRENCY?

Of course he has more experience than you.... That is the very definition of experience. Now we could break it down in to relevant experience, but a guy with twice your number of jumps has twice your experience.

And yes, I believe in currency.

Do you believe in experience and currency? If so, I have made 109 jumps in one week... That's almost the total number of jumps you have. And I would bet I am also more current than you. So, what makes you think that with 41 times the experience you have, AND being more current than you... that somehow you know more than me?

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I am done with this thread

You keep saying that.... But the problem is, you keep saying that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,396]

>So do you have any experience on a Stiletto 190 at a 1 to 1 . . .

I do. (Jumped a friends a while back.) My weight put the loading slightly under 1:1. It was, in my opinion, pretty unstable in turbulence. Felt about like my old Nova did when things got bumpy.

>I am not dead, and have 25 jumps on mine.

Right, and there are people who have pulled at 1000 feet 25 times who aren't dead either. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[pchapman 261]

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-Fully Elliptical Canopies are not permitted for jumpers with less than 300 jumps.
-Prior to transitioning from a non-elliptical to elliptical planform, all jumpers should make at least 100 on a non-elliptical parachute of the same wingloading, or as dictated by the Canopy Transition Course Instructor.

EFS4LIFE indeed didn't pay much attention to those points.

I wonder though, to what degree the Germain charts takes into account low wing loading ellipticals. That may be a situation outside of the main design range of the charts.

And if one wanted to take what experienced canopy designers say as gospel, then one could pit Brian Germain against John LeBlanc. EFS4LIFE at 1:1 under a Stiletto 190 is only marginally outside the recommended range for a Novice under a Stiletto 190. (Max 181 lbs)

And we've already seen how a large proportion of traditional Stiletto jumpers have been outside of PD's recommended range. This makes any transgression of their suggestions seem less of a problem.

As for the ability argument, someone could be average in inherent ability but be given superior training, and thus become above average in skill for the number of jumps.

Sure I'll jump on the bandwagon and roll my eyes at the typical over aggressive and self-confident newbie. On the other hand, despite my much greater experience, EFS4LIFE still has a bunch of jumps on a Stiletto 190 at 1:1, something I've never done. So despite his lack of experience from which to base his comments, it was interesting to see what he said about the canopy.

[davelepka 4]

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I wonder though, to what degree the Germain charts takes into account low wing loading ellipticals. That may be a situation outside of the main design range of the charts.

Probably to no degree at all. This would be for the same reason that PD doesn't list 'student' or 'beginner' Wl on their charts for canopies like the Stiletto, Katana, and Velocity. None of those canopies are intended for low jump numbers, so there's no reason to consider any factors (Wl, elevation, etc) beyond jump numbers with regard to those canopies.

Let's face it, we all know the guy is grasping at straws here. There's no way a guy with 100 some jumps can accurately make an assesment of a canopy like that. He just hasn't had the exposure to different canopies and unusual circumstances needed to provide him with the proper perspective. He can take a guess, but he's doing so at his own risk.

[robinheid 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

If I'm "flying right" then I should have very little concern about other people that may cut me off at the last few seconds before landing, even though I saw them from far away? How did that work out for Roger, who was "flying right".

as i recall, the subject was doing a "panic' turn to avoid someone cutting you off -- and as i also recall, roger was hit from above and behind so a possible "panic" turn was not in play and so that particular collision is not relevant to the point you raised. Try again.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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Yo dude, you make more sense than anyone on this thread.

And here is the one guy that the young guy looks for for verification and validation of his less than smart acts.

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I don't know where "Ron" learned to do math, but 120 pounds + 30 pounds for gear and clothes = 150 pounds divided by 190 = .789 wing loading. It's 160 + 30 = 190 = 1:1 unless somewhere in there I missed a mention that you jumped a 150.

In school... the same place you need to go to learn to read.

If you go to PD's website, it lists what sizes and wingloadings are appropriate for the Stiletto.

They don't recommend the Stiletto 190 until *INT* experience and then only with an exit weight of 152 pounds.

Exit weight of 152 pounds with 30 pounds of gear and clothes = 122 pounds for the jumper.

See if you take 152 - 30 you get 122. Now I said "about 120 pounds"... But I did say "about", when I could have said 122 pounds exactly.

So go read it again.....

Okay, I follow you now... sorry about that. I did in fact miss the fact that you were talking about PD recommendations, not the 1:1 wing loading of efs4life's stiletto.

You still have a math problem, though; both Kallend and I are people to whom the young guy can look for verification and validation of his (canopy size and training choices) and last time I checked, 1 + 1 = 2.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[d123 1]

What the fuck I know but hear this: I fly a Sabre2 190 WL 1.1 which opens really weird; sometimes it gives me 360+ in a line twist. I have close to 200 jumps. Me and a couple of my friends that get the same type of openings are glad that we didn't jump stiletto as students. Maybe on this side of the world people are stupider but I feel good that I didn't and currently don’t see ant instructor here saying "yeah bro, jumping a stiletto as student is cool”. Heck, people are soooo stupid, on this side of the world, that we still have students that lose stability at 11 jumps and open at 3500 and not 5000, we have students who land in the trees, one students that broke a finger on exit from cessna (the finger stayed inside) and one student who broke her back from turning left, instead of right as the radio guy said and then correcting with a low right 180 turn into the hospital.

By pure statistic: Hell NO! If we want to bring more people in our sport (even the students that I've seen quit because of a landing accident) then students should put on canopies that have very similar characteristics (open/flying/landing) as the reserves because there’s an historical statistic reason why reserves fly like they do.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[phoenixlpr 0]

Why Stiletto? Couldn't you find a Velocity, VX or JVX?

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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Why Stiletto? Couldn't you find a Velocity, VX or JVX?

Those canopies did not have the characteristics I wanted in my canopy. Mainly FLAT GLIDE. I have tried canopies with steeper glides and hate them. I am uncomfortable on them. I also assume you are being sarcastic because last time I checked they don't make those canopies in a 190. Stiletto is the only one that fit my bill so to speak.

Oh yeah and to the other guy. Ummm a PANIC toggle turn close to the ground will kill you on any canopy duh! A stiletto actually has a faster recovery arc than some of the semi ellipticals. I am not a swooper so the fast recovery arc is a GOOD thing for me

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[davelepka 4]

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Oh yeah and to the other guy. Ummm a PANIC toggle turn close to the ground will kill you on any canopy duh! A stiletto actually has a faster recovery arc than some of the semi ellipticals. I am not a swooper so the fast recovery arc is a GOOD thing for me

This is where you fuck yourself over in terms of your argument, and possibly in real life if your 'theory' is ever put to the test.

The 'faster' recvovery arc of a Stiletto is only in relation to newer designs intended for swooping, and having a long dive built-in as a design consideration. The Stiletto will still dive a long way in a turn, more than long enough to drill you into the ground if done at a low altitude.

Let's be real, only a turn done close enough to the ground to allow you to impact before recovery could ever be called a 'panic turn'. If you preformed a turn high enough to allow for a full recovery and land without incident, it would simply be called 'manuvering'.

Back to the Stiletto, the real problem with it is that it has very little built in stability in the roll axis. The canopy has a tendency to 'over turn' and is not self-centering in that it won't return to straight and level flight on it's own.

Let's say that the Stiletto will only dive 200ft as a result of a 90 degree turn, and another canopy will go 300ft. The trouble is the high roll rate of the Stiletto means that when it does come to a 'panic turn' you're more likely to roll well past the 90 degree mark, and you'll induce a dive that will exceed the 300ft mark. The difference is that the longer diving canopy has a slower roll rate, and is easier to control.

You can't plan your actions in advance for 'panic'. That's the whole point of the term, it's a loss of judgement or control in a high pressure or high stress situation. What you can plan ahead is your equipment by selectiing equipment that will make up for your shortcomings when you're not at your best, and I've got news for you, with about 100 jumps you better hope you're nowhere near your best.