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jumpnaked69

Stilleto as a Student Canopy

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If a student pulls at 4 and I pull at 3 and I can back flying directly into the wind some of that will have to do with the fact that I can cut through the wind because my canopy will have a high forward speed. Think about the Velos and VXs at your DZ that can land in 20+ winds but the student canopies that fly backwards.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey troll!

A student - under a Stiletto - would still land backwards if you put them out in 20 knot winds. It is a question of wing-loading.
We all ways keep student wing-loadings less than 1 pound per square foot (typically 0.7 pounds per square foot) to allow them to limp away from panic turns or poorly timed flares.
Besides, the biggest Stiletto I have seen was a 170 and there is no way I am going to put anyone short of an A license under a canopy smaller than a Hornet 190.

Sorry, but I will not support your logic.
Stilettos are old technology.
Several generations of better canopies have been designed for students since then (Silhouette, Sabre 2, Navigator, Skymaster Solo, ZP Manta, Icarus whatchamcallit, etc.)

But what do I know????
Only been jumping a Stiletto for a couple of years now. Hated it until I replaced its worn out lines.
Previous to that I jumped a variety of Sabre Mark 1s (170, 150 and 135). My wingsuit canopy is a boring, old, rectangular Ariel 150.
I have only been a jumpmaster since military surplus rounds were fashionable for students (1982). I have seen the business progress from military surplus rounds for students, to Para-Commanders, through rectangular ram-air mains (Manta and Skymaster) and my first job this morning is to finish assembling a tapered (Solo 270) student main.
I have been a PFF Instructor going 15 years now. Oh! and I am coming up on 20 years as a tandem-master.
But what do I know?

Hint: don't try to BS instructors who have been teaching longer than you have been breathing!

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I have never posted on this website. Probably won't again. Although I will buy from the classifieds. I have 115 jumps. Nothing I know. Trust me I know. I am constantly reminded. I was around 90 jumps when I went to a Stiletto 190 at a 1 to 1 wingloading. Crazy right? What DZO or S&TA in his right mind would let this occur? Well maybe one that thinks for himself and is ahead of the curve. I had experience on the Pulse, Storm, regular F1-11 Pd 190, and student rigs before the Stiletto. I loved the Pulse for the same reasons stated as the Stiletto. Responsive. FLAT GLIDE was a huge comfort for me. Rapid recovery was a big help. The only problem I had was that I could do chinups on the front risers and not get anything. Harness input? Please. Not happening. I seem to remember front riser turns being part of my proficiency card for my A license. I couldn't pull them off for crap under my student PD 260, but I somehow got my license anyway. Strange how that works. The SIM talks about a two staged flare. Never could even attempt it on the others. Listen, even PD states on their website on choosing the right canopy that a larger elliptical canopy in the same wingloading might be a good option as opposed to downsizing. I understand the myth of the "spinetto" but please unless you have some experience on a 190 at a 1 to 1 WL rethink that myth because it is not true. Students on a Stiletto? No I can't agree. Low timers with good canopy skills that are looking for more without downsizing? Perfect, as long as it is on a large size, like a 190, and they don't exceed 1 to 1. I have been in line twist and it never put me on my back. I can two stage it and plain it out for 20 feet on a no winder. I am not dead, and have 25 jumps on mine. Not one biffed landing. Landing crosswind, no wind, down wind. This canopy is perfect for me. I know it is not perfect for everyone. It might be dangerous for someone else. I am NO expert. What I can tell you is that I am learning canopy skills now, on a larger more forgiving Stiletto, that will make me a hell of a canopy pilot in the future, and they are skills that I attempted on other larger canopies that I could not do. I know I am a low timer that doesn't know shit though.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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I understand the myth of the "spinetto" but please unless you have some experience on a 190 at a 1 to 1 WL rethink that myth because it is not true.



You claim to have 25 jumps on it..... How do you know it will not spin up on the next jump? Just because it has not yet? I go about 500 jumps between malfunctions... But that does not mean it will take 500 jumps for it to do it.

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Listen, even PD states on their website on choosing the right canopy that a larger elliptical canopy in the same wingloading might be a good option as opposed to downsizing.



Yes, but the same website also shows that they don't recommend the Stiletto 190 until *INT* experience and then only with an exit weight of 152 pounds.

So unless you weigh about 120 pounds you are not following their advice.

Glad you are not dead, but one persons opinion with only 25 jumps is just that... One opinion with limited exp.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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"claim" to have 25 jumps on it? No I do. I don't give a shit if you believe me.

"spin up" well I had about 5 line twist that took me quite a bit to kick out of and it kept flying straight.

PD didn't seem to call me crazy even though I was exceeding their "recommendations" when I ordered the demo. I did not lie to them about my experience either. I simply told them my experiences, and what exactly I was looking for in a canopy.

So do you have any experience on a Stiletto 190 at a 1 to 1 or are you some uber experienced jumper that probably down sized way too fast, or have only have flown Stilettos 150 or smaller? Just curious. Oh yeah and try to be honest. For yourself at least.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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Not trying to sound like a dick i just have found that a lot of experienced guys have plenty of experience on a Stiletto just on smaller higher loaded ones that really don't relate to lightly loaded larger ones. I have had one mal on mine and handled it fine. Like I said not ok for students no, but competent canopy pilots(even with lower numbers, B license at least) under the close supervision of a single instructor with his or her approval it can be a great tool for learning. I stand by that, because I am living it. Again I realize this is a sport dominated by people who tend to think that lower jump number guys can't possibly be decent canopy pilots because everyone's skill level equates to their jump numbers entirely and nothing else matters. People listen to YOUR instructors. Take what people who have never met you, flown with you, or know your skill level, with a grain of salt. Their intentions maybe good, but they can hold you back unnecessarily as well, if you let them. That being said do not disregard the advice of your instructors, ever! No one wants to see other skydivers hurt. Me included, but I know my Stiletto 190 is the canopy for me. As I said not for everyone, but it is for me. If you don't think so I challenge you to come watch me fly it and then judge me. Until then you don't know me or my canopy skills period. No matter what you may say.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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You also said you have a mal about every 500 jumps. What is your wingloading? Don't you believe that wingloading makes an elliptical canopy more likely to spin and less forgiving? I guess PD is lying about that too though, because they say it....in that same article I mentioned. Listen if you don't have any experience on a LIGHTLY loaded LARGE Stiletto then don't act like you do. No matter how many jumps you have. A lightly loaded LARGE Stiletto is a lot more docile and forgiving than a smaller or highly loaded one. The Storm 190 I flew for 12 jumps during my demo felt a TON more dangerous to me, and it is a 7 cell! I am not an expert but I do know enough to know that because I personally felt it.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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Yes, but the same website also shows that they don't recommend the Stiletto 190 until *INT* experience and then only with an exit weight of 152 pounds.

So unless you weigh about 120 pounds you are not following their advice.



Fair enough, but I will say that not everything in the PD wing loading charts is to be taken as gospel. Look at the Stiletto 120 for example, the canopy that seemed to be the most common for any experienced jumper in the mid 1990s.

Taking the PD chart, and allowing 25 lbs for gear, we'd expect that the typical experienced jumper, in the Advanced category, would be 119 lbs or below. Or 143 lbs or below for the real Experts.

I don't recall the skies being full of 110 lb jumpers on their Stiletto 120s...

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So, here's the question--at a dropzone using an AFP-style program where the student will do 2-3 tandems and then 15-18 jumps with at least 1 instructor, what do you other instructors think about using a Stiletto (loaded at about .75-.85:1) as the student's canopy?



It would be a dumb fuck thing to do !

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Relax, no one is challenging your manhood.

I have about 300 jumps on Stiletto 190's loaded about 1.1:1. Hopefully that's close enough to your loading to be comparable for you.

I had to cut one away because of a spinning line twist, so it happens. Although it doesn't happen as fast on a larger canopy (I've had a similar malfunction on a Stiletto 135 loaded at over 1.6:1) it still loses a lot of altitude very quickly.

Don't get complacent about your canopy. 25 jumps is nothing. My 190 didn't spin on me until about 250 jumps on it. Let us know again when you have 10 times your experience with that canopy if you're still convinced that it can't spin up on you.

- Dan G

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I never said it CAN'T spin up on me. Hell I have seen spinners on tandem canopies. I am just saying that a larger size 190 or 170 Stiletto at 1 or 1.1 is not a monster. Anyone with a B license should been proficient enough to execute the EP's. Again gentleman I stress listen and talk with YOUR instructors, not instructors on the internet who have NO clue about your abilities. I also do not think this is a good canopy for everyone. It just is for me. My goal was to get some of you old heads to rethink the old adage that no one with under 500 jumps or so has any business on a Stiletto period. That is just not true anymore. A smaller or highly loaded one yes I agree, but the larger Stilettos when lightly loaded are excellent learning tools for intermediate canopy pilots that have shown the ability to be able to handle it, and not make poor choices low to the ground. I urge anyone who is flying a 190 or 170 canopy that is considering downsizing to first try an elliptical in their current size and wingloading. They may discover that they have a lot more to learn before taking the risks associated with flying a smaller more loaded canopy. I know that 25 jumps is nothing. I also know that 115 jumps is nothing. People always remind me of that. I also know that it is not irrelevant. It is my experience. The one thing I can't stand about this sport is people who have to constantly puff out their chest with their jump numbers while shoving the lower jump number guys down. There are other ways of communicating your experience and the wisdom you have learned without doing that. Some of the great teachers in this sport, Brian Germain comes to mind, never take that approach.....with good reason I suspect.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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"claim" to have 25 jumps on it? No I do. I don't give a shit if you believe me.



#1 who pissed in your cornflakes? "Claim" is another way of saying you "said", or you "state".... please see 3B

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/claim

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"spin up" well I had about 5 line twist that took me quite a bit to kick out of and it kept flying straight.



A data point of one is exactly that..... One. And to claim it will *never* spin based on a data point of one incident out of a base of 25 is not a very good argument.

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PD didn't seem to call me crazy even though I was exceeding their "recommendations" when I ordered the demo.



Nope, but that does not change the facts about how the canopy flies and your inexperience with it and in general.

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So do you have any experience on a Stiletto 190 at a 1 to 1 or are you some uber experienced jumper that probably down sized way too fast, or have only have flown Stilettos 150 or smaller? Just curious. Oh yeah and try to be honest. For yourself at least.



I have flown canopies as big as 420sqft and as small as 69sqft. I have landed rounds, 7 cells, and 9 cells in various planeforms. I have jumped elliptical canopies at 1.1 as well as almost 2.0.

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I stand by that, because I am living it.



And I stand by 17 years in the sport, almost 5k jumps, and seeing guys that think they are better than they are being carried off the field broken time after time.... everyone thinks they are *special*.... Yet *Physics does not change* based on how nice you are, or how skilled you are.... or think you are.

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Again I realize this is a sport dominated by people who tend to think that lower jump number guys can't possibly be decent canopy pilots because everyone's skill level equates to their jump numbers entirely and nothing else matters.



Not where I am coming from... you are just so quick to defend your actions that you don't bother to listen to what has been said.

But I have seen SO many people that thought they were better skilled than average get broken... and here is a hint, most people think they are better than average, and mathematically that is not possible. Everyone cannot be better than average. Regrettably we often find out who was not by a thread in the incident reports section.

Ask yourself this.... Out of ALL of the people that have died under canopy. How many of them thought they were over their heads, and how many thought they were skilled enough to fly the canopy they died under?

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People listen to YOUR instructors.



I have seen instructors sell equipment to students that they were not ready for just to sell it. More importantly, I have seen students "shop" for someone that will tell them what they want to hear.

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You also said you have a mal about every 500 jumps. What is your wingloading?



They have been on WL from under 1/1 to as high as over 2.0. Some have been tandems, some have been way sub 100 canopy's. The Stilettos I have had to chop were 1.4-1.7/1

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Don't you believe that wingloading makes an elliptical canopy more likely to spin and less forgiving?



Sure it makes it MORE, but that does not mean a light WL does not have the same traits. You seem to think a light WL removes the ability of a ST to spin up, and you base that on 25 jumps on a ST. That is not a logical conclusion based on all the available data, just on the tiny sample you have.

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A lightly loaded LARGE Stiletto is a lot more docile and forgiving than a smaller or highly loaded one.



No one argued that... you just seem to think we did. What you are ignoring is that a light WL does not remove the possibility.... And that makes no sense and you base it all on 25 jumps.

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The Storm 190 I flew for 12 jumps during my demo felt a TON more dangerous to me, and it is a 7 cell! I am not an expert but I do know enough to know that because I personally felt it.



Perception is not reality.... It is only perception. Go call PD and tell them that you think the Storm is more dangerous than a Stiletto and let us know what they say.

Again, you seem to think we are "out to get you" and "trying to hold your mad skills back".... But you want to ignore that fact that many of use have TONS more experience than you.... And that includes doing, watching, teaching, AND screwing up.

Lets see.... you have 115 jumps, I have ~4800.

So that's 41.7 times the experience. Or, 41 jumps for every single jump you have ever made.

I don't know about you.... But if a guy with 41.7 times the experience than me (200,347 jumps) started talking to me... I would listen... I defiantly would not be talking down to him.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I never said it CAN'T spin up on me. Hell I have seen spinners on tandem canopies. I am just saying that a larger size 190 or 170 Stiletto at 1 or 1.1 is not a monster. Anyone with a B license should been proficient enough to execute the EP's.



No, it is not a monster, but it is probably above the skill set of the vast majority of 50-200 jump people. My malfunction on my 190 was not nearly as fast or violent as ones I'd had on much smaller canopies. On the other hand, after maybe five or so rotations I'd reached my hard deck at 1800ft and had to let it go. I think many people with less experience might not realize how fast they are descending, and spend time they don't have thinking they can get that one last twist out.

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Again gentleman I stress listen and talk with YOUR instructors, not instructors on the internet who have NO clue about your abilities.



I certainly agree agree.

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I also do not think this is a good canopy for everyone. It just is for me. My goal was to get some of you old heads to rethink the old adage that no one with under 500 jumps or so has any business on a Stiletto period. That is just not true anymore. A smaller or highly loaded one yes I agree, but the larger Stilettos when lightly loaded are excellent learning tools for intermediate canopy pilots that have shown the ability to be able to handle it, and not make poor choices low to the ground. I urge anyone who is flying a 190 or 170 canopy that is considering downsizing to first try an elliptical in their current size and wingloading. They may discover that they have a lot more to learn before taking the risks associated with flying a smaller more loaded canopy.



And at thins point I would encourage everyone else reading to take your own advice and ignore what you just said. If you feel that experienced instructors shouldn't give out advice on the internet, what makes you think that you should?

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I know that 25 jumps is nothing. I also know that 115 jumps is nothing. People always remind me of that. I also know that it is not irrelevant. It is my experience.



Fair enough.

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The one thing I can't stand about this sport is people who have to constantly puff out their chest with their jump numbers while shoving the lower jump number guys down. There are other ways of communicating your experience and the wisdom you have learned without doing that.



If you think I'm puffing out my chest about my jump numbers, you need to go back and re-read what I wrote. The flip side of experienced people talking down to newbies, is newbies getting super defensive what anyone gives them advice at all.

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Some of the great teachers in this sport, Brian Germain comes to mind, never take that approach.....with good reason I suspect.



Brian is great. But he happens to have tons of experience to back up what he says. He's also always trying to learn, and he'll listen to anyone. You might want to try and emulate that, too.

- Dan G

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It is my experience. The one thing I can't stand about this sport is people who have to constantly puff out their chest with their jump numbers while shoving the lower jump number guys down. There are other ways of communicating your experience and the wisdom you have learned without doing that. Some of the great teachers in this sport, Brian Germain comes to mind, never take that approach.....with good reason I suspect.





"Some of the great teachers in this sport' get PAID for their teaching, and in order to keep the money flowing they have out of necessity softened their approach so as not to ruffle the feathers of those with thin skin...nothing wrong with that but it may behoove you to consider the motivation & intentions of advise given, as well as the tone & manner.

Some of the most valuable advise I ever got coming up was free, from guys with 40 times my jump numbers that said something as simple as "You're fucking up doing that and it can kill you."

The reason you were trained the way you were, use the gear that you use, use it WAY you do...is because those with more experience and ability than you, worked out the most survivable scenario regarding the path to follow.

When you were first starting out, you set your ego somewhat aside and trusted the things those people with more jumps and time in the sport had to say...now that you have become 'comfortable' with what you are doing, why do you want to disregard the things you're being told now?

I'll tell you why, it's EGO...none of us ever wants to believe we're less than perfect or that something we're doin' can get out hand...go bad, & hurt us.

But if nothing else, jump numbers and time in the sport have time and again shown 'us' that have those things... ego CAN get you into more trouble than ANY skill can get ya out of.

Despite what you think you know, no matter how good your sills are...actual or perceived ~ you are at one of the most critically dangerous points of your Skydiving career.

You're 'comfortable' and 'over confident' ...believing you can handle anything that's thrown your way.

The cold hard truth is you can not!

NONE of us can handle everything every time...the incident reports bear that out.
Mistakes, oversights, bad judgement and just dumb luck can take you out in a heartbeat...the smart move is to minimise those possibilities.

The best way to minimise those possibilities is to try NOT to reinvent the wheel.
The idea is to not let your ego override the pragmatic & proven approach.

Your goals in this sport 'should' be to jump when you want to, where you're able to, as often as you like and for as LONG as possible...HOW you want to, should be down the list quite a bit because if that HOW affects the when, where, how often and length of time in the sport...your choice on thehow probably wasn't a good one.

There's old ones and bold ones...just no old bold ones! :D

If you think your skills are above average and the 'rule of thumb' doesn't apply in your case...best of luck to you.

I hope your arrogance & ignorance doesn't get someone else hurt or killed because THAT'S real tragedy.

Those people, that to you seem to be 'puffing chests' have absolutely NO reason to try to 'keep you down'.

They are relaying to you things that they have learned, in the hope you will remain healthy and assist the sport in growing in more ways than incident statistics.

If you think the advise you get is harsh or doesn't apply...
~then hopefully that thought returns 'if & when' you are on your back waiting for the medics.

Because hearing someone say ~ "Hey asshole, I tried to tell ya you were fuckin' up!"

...and finally figuring out they were right.


That's harsh! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Despite what you think you know, no matter how good your sills are...actual or perceived ~ you are at one of the most critically dangerous points of your Skydiving career.



Great post; but that line demands repeating.

Who of us has not been there? And most unfortunately, how many did not get thru that phase because their arrogance/ignorance led to a mistake which they were not lucky enough to survive?

At 115 jumps a person should be listening about 41 times more often than they are speaking.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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At 115 jumps a person should be listening about 41 times more often than they are speaking.



I am in that ballpark for jump numbers and I could not agree more. I find myself asking questions or considering trying stuff now that I would not have done at 50-60 jumps. I think the answer is that ALL lower time jumpers (read <500-1,000 jumps, or new to any discipline) should have a mentor.

I am lucky to have some guys in the 5,000-10,000 jump range who have the patience to listen to my questions and take the time to explain why they are (or are not) reasonable things to try. They do this without being an asshole and I believe the reason is that I earned that attitude by actually listening to what they say.

Back to the Stilletto. Why does anyone still buy one? If you want a fast canopy to swoop with, there are much better candidates with longer recovery arcs. And if you don't want a fast canopy, why would anyone want the additional hassles of elliptical openings? I understand that they were the Velocity of their day, but technology has moved on...
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Back to the Stilletto. Why does anyone still buy one?



If you know how to fly them, they have great openings.

They have great glide ratios and can get you back from a bad spot.

They can be landed in really short areas if you have to do it.

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I understand that they were the Velocity of their day, but technology has moved on...



But physics has not changed.... They still are as high performance as they were the day they were introduced. Yes, other canopy's have become higher performance, but that does not remove any performance from the Stiletto.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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This type of shit is why I said I never post here and wouldn't again. Now I am being told I have an ego problem by people who have never met me. I do listen 41 more times than I speak. Hence NEVER freaking posting before. I ask a TON of questions all the time, and ALWAYS listen to my instructors. I respect people with WAY more experience than me. I do not think my skills are above average. I think I do listen well and have the ability to apply what I have been taught though. I am not some hot shot who pushes the limits either. Look the bottom line is I know on my canopy I am learning things that I could not learn on a larger square. Things like bad body position on deployment, how harness input can make your wing unlevel when coming on final, that I have to ensure my leg straps are even or I can expect a turn in my canopy, a true two stage flare planing it out and bleeding of speed. These are things that I could not see measurable impacts on a larger square. I tried. My instructor did not have any gain in my canopy choice as I bought a new one from PD either. I am just tired of jumpers giving me shit about it when I know I can handle it, and so does my instructor. I do not say that because I have too big of an ego or I think I am better than I am. I say that because I am learning shit right now that many jumpers don't learn until hundreds of jumpers later. After downsizing and such. Can an elliptical, regardless of size and wingloading spin you on your back? Yes, I know that. I also know what to do as soon as it starts diving in line twist. Chop it period. So far the line twist I have experienced (up to 5 I think) my canopy kept flying straight. I pull at 4 on this canopy just for that reason. I am learning. I love this sport because I know as long as I am in it I will always be learning. There is no end to learning. I also know that if my instructors or DZO thought I could not handle my canopy they would not allow me to fly it period. I also would add that Brian doesn't use that approach for monetary purposes alone either guys. Maybe someone should ask him, but I bet it really isn't in his nature to be like that. Just a guess. Look there are guys I know with 300 or more jumps that I know that have no business on an elliptical, because of their skill level. I don't care how many jumps they have. I see them all the time. I am just saying there are some guys who have lower numbers that can fly one safely in a larger size with a light wingloading. Wingloading doesn't eliminate the risks on an elliptical no, but it sure is a hell of a lot tamer during a mal on a lightly loaded large one. You can't cookie cut everyone into a skill set just by jump numbers alone. Currency is huge. And some ARE better than others. That is life guys. Otherwise a lot more of use would be rich professional athletes. I understand the need for there to be some measuring stick, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Hence the talk to YOUR instructors. If you want to call me crazy for being on the canopy I am then so be it. I have not downsized once. I just changed the shape of my wing. It was a change that is helping me learn a ton more than I otherwise would have, and I feel that it is safe for me. I know how to chop and when. I will not fight with a spinner, ever. Why? Material objects can be repaired or replaced. I will chop.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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I am not dead, and have 25 jumps on mine. Not one biffed landing. Landing crosswind, no wind, down wind. This canopy is perfect for me........

sorry don't know how to underline it. Now to my point.

very simple EFS4LIFE, Read MY incident report, THEN ask me about the 48 days in the hospital, and the shit I still deal with coming up on 3 years after I hooked in. Yup....had 34 bad ass swoops on my SAMURAI....#35....not so much. 25 pieces of titanium from my L14 to my right ankle, and a real nice limp n, well the list goes on, and on. Sorry about your attitude problem. I think whomever is your mentor forgot to tell you. Wanna be a skydiver ? better develop real thick skin, and don't get all butt hurt when your called out on an obvious error in judgement. Disrespect that stiletto just once....have one itsy bitsy brain fart under canopy or on final, or even worse have to avoid someone else screwing up during final, and watch your world change INSTANTLY. good luck bro. I hope your read this, and everyone elses critique, and see it for what it is....fellow jumpers hoping to NOT see you in the incidents forum. It is NOT the personal attack you perceive.

IMHO no fully eliptical canopy is suitable for a student. N yeah experience matters, whether you believe it to or not. Some progress faster than other for sure, but since our sport has no "minor league" jump numbers will have to suffice.

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I think I read every post in this thread and (unless I missed it) didn't see one person bring up the topic of "Can you put your canopy down in a tight landing area following a bad spot?"

What if that tight landing area is a postage stamp sized lot with powerlines on one side and surrounded by three 6 foot block walls in you direction of travel? Compound that with having 3-7 others on the load shooting for the same LZ. Happened to me in Perris.

I hear jumpers of all experience levels raving about the surf and tippy toe landing that XYZ canopy gives them. But not every landing will afford you the luxury of a nice long runway to finish your swoop. Better find out if that "perfect canopy" can be dropped straight in just in case you ever need it.

end rant

edited because eye kan't speel two gould.
Blue Skies, Soft Docks and Happy Landings!
CWR #23
(It's called CRW, add an e if you like, but I ain't calling it CFS. FU FAI!)

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I DON'T HOOK TURN. Enough said. Don't with thread. Peace out and Blue ones.



I have heard those words before. "I'll be OK because I fly conservatively and don't swoop".

If someone cuts you off on final at about 50 feet I bet you may make a panic turn. End result can be the same as a "hook turn".

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I DON'T HOOK TURN. Enough said. Don't with thread. Peace out and Blue ones.



EFS4LIFE, I wasn't trying to imply that you or anyone here made hook turns. I was trying to speak to the whole audience reading this thread.

Over the years I have watched the transition to smaller and faster. I have seen near horizontal impacts on big 7 cells as well as people shooting conservative landings on tiny cross-braced, airlocked modern canopies. My point is it is important to explore the full range of whatever canopy they choose to jump.

I have limited (read zero) experience with the Stiletto (or any elliptical for that matter). I do however have multi-hundred jumps exploring the full range of the canopies that I have jumped. I currently jump a rather large (by today's standards) 7 cell and can sink in an accuracy landing or surf it the length of a football field if I "hook it" just right. :P

My scariest experience was overshooting the landing area at Eloy on a super sporty F111 PD 220 9 cell and striking my chest on a telephone pole (See pic) with enough force to knock the pole off it's supports and the breath out of me.

I see most new jumpers trying to advance way too fast in every aspect of this sport. Adding elliptical canopies to the student progression IMH(but accurate)O ;) just isn't a good thing.
Blue Skies, Soft Docks and Happy Landings!
CWR #23
(It's called CRW, add an e if you like, but I ain't calling it CFS. FU FAI!)

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This type of shit is why I said I never post here and wouldn't again.



Only you can control that.

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Now I am being told I have an ego problem by people who have never met me.



But they are reading what you type.

See how you are upset at people who are making conclusions off very little information and you claim they don't know what they are talking about.... That is just like you thinking you know a Stiletto off of only 25 jumps. Funny huh?

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I am just tired of jumpers giving me shit about it when I know I can handle it



You never answered my question: How many people that died under canopy... Thought they could handle that canopy?

This is funny:

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I do not think my skills are above average.



Then you say:

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I do not say that because I have too big of an ego or I think I am better than I am. I say that because I am learning shit right now that many jumpers don't learn until hundreds of jumpers later....

Look there are guys I know with 300 or more jumps that I know that have no business on an elliptical, because of their skill level.



So which is it:

1. You don't think you are above average.

or

2. You are learning things most people don't know until hundreds of jumps later and you are better than guys with twice your jump numbers?

Cause they are mutually exclusive.

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I also know what to do as soon as it starts diving in line twist. Chop it period.



That's not true. Shows you don't really know all you think you know. You might have just chopped a canopy you could have landed. It is MUCH more than 'just chop it'.... You have to know the TYPE of spin, and your altitude loss.

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I also would add that Brian doesn't use that approach for monetary purposes alone either guys. Maybe someone should ask him, but I bet it really isn't in his nature to be like that. Just a guess.



I am willing to bet that I know Brian much better than you.... I have known him since 1995.

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and I feel that it is safe for me. I know how to chop and when.



Again, how many dead skydivers thought the EXACT same way?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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