Stilleto as a Student Canopy

[billvon 2,379]

> I just said it happens a lot. It is by far what I would consider common place.

Yes. So do canopy fatalities. It is a good idea, IMO, to work to prevent them.

>I would argue that at a 190 with a 1 to 1 WL a Stiletto does not react that
>"poorly" to mistakes.

It reacts a lot more poorly than a Pilot 188 would.

>I am not going to go out and pay for the demo

Just FYI, I've never paid for a demo. All my demoing has been at DZ's that have demo canopies available, at events like boogies, bigway attempts and Nationals than have free demos available, and by just asking for them from other jumpers/manufacturers/gear stores. It's not hard to get free demos, although sometimes it does require traveling to where the canopies are.

[davelepka 4]

Look hoss, you said you wanted an intellectual debate, so I offered you one -

You made this point -

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I advocate a jumper learn an elliptical on the larger sizes with lighter wingloading, if he ever wants to fly one. I just don't see how hundreds of jumps on squares can help you when you have been learning bad habits on them the whole time.

To which I made this counter point -

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Without having succesfully completed the progression, on what grounds to base your assumption that your method will be more successful than the more conservative, more commonly used progression that many here are suggesting would be more appropriate?

Have you given any thought to the idea that the people backing the more conservative approach have actually completed a progression of learning in canopy piloing, and therefore have the real-world experience on which to base their assertions?

- and thus we have the makings of an intellectual debate. This is the part where you defend your position, to which I will reply in defense of mine, and so on.

Do you know of a different format of debate? Maybe that's the miscommunication?

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Dave.

I cannot debate the fact that I have not completed the progression. I cannot debate you have more experience. I enjoy a debate, but come on bud it has to be debatable in the first place. No one is going to debate hard facts like that. Thats like saying I want to debate that on a clear day the sky is blue, now I have the blue side you debate another color.

To answer the question you asked though

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on what grounds to base your assumption that your method will be more successful

I base it on the things I have learned under it versus squares. I don't think you have disputed the characteristics I listed about the canopy. You just dispute that someone of my experience level can handle them.

I say it will make me a better pilot. Basically you say I will get hurt or die. I guess the compromise here is if I don't get hurt or die I will be a better pilot! Or will flying the Stiletto make me a worse pilot somehow?

When Nelson wanted his students to learn on squares they said the same thing. I am not advocating students jump ellipticals, but I hope you can see the parallel there. Time will tell I guess.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[wmw999 2,114]

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I cannot debate the fact that I have not completed the progression. I cannot debate you have more experience. I enjoy a debate, but come on bud it has to be debatable in the first place. No one is going to debate hard facts like that.

D'oh.

Dude, you're right, you can't debate this. Your only recourse is to let this thread die (which means you will NOT get the last word in unless you get it locked immediately after your last posting, but that's unlikely because there are 2 or 3 moderators in this). Your only way to "win" the debate is to become a new data point -- i.e. learn as much as you can on this Stiletto, not hurt yourself, and begin teaching newbies. Anything else is self-serving.

And hopefully you'll become that kind of data point, and not the other kind (i.e. where you do, in fact, hurt yourself, or give someone advice that follow and hurt themselves).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[timmyfitz 0]

Haven't you said 3 or 4 times that you were done with this thread? If you can't argue your point to a winning conclusion, at least keep your word about not posting anymore.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Bill

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Yes. So do canopy fatalities. It is a good idea, IMO, to work to prevent them.

Which despite the majority consensus here is what I believe I am doing with MYSELF. See I believe I am safer learning how to fly an elliptical on this large lightly loaded Stiletto, rather then progressing down to smaller sizes and then switching to an elliptical later.

I was talking with one of the instructors at my dz (BTW not the one who gave me the ok to jump my ST 190) that has in the area of 700 jumps. He jumps a Stiletto 135. I believe his progression was Sabre2 190, Stiletto 170, Stiletto 150, then recently a Stiletto 135. I asked him if he thought his Sabre2 prepared him for the things like body position, and symmetrical flaring that you need on a full elliptical, and he said honestly no not really. He said that it gave him good experience, but when he started jumping the ST 170 he realized he had bad habits. He also stated other than the responsiveness to those bad habits, the obvious faster turns, and constantly having closed end cells on the Sabre2 he did not really feel that much of a difference between it and his Sabre2. I thought um isn't that a lot of difference though? Lol.

Why shouldn't I learn those good habits now before ever downsizing? Yeah it easy to say just practice them on a square, but realistically think about it. With everything else a jumper with my experience is learning, free flying, etc. I will not concentrate on that unless I have a canopy that gives me feedback when I let it slip. After having to kick out of line twist because I let that shoulder dip I say "Well that was dumb of me!" I never blame the pack job for twist like some idiots. That is usually always due to body position in my experience. Sometimes you can get one side of the canopy inflating first and causing a spin, but mostly I see bad body position.

And Bill I am not trying to doubt your experience but at this size and wing loading it hasn't "spun" up on me to the point of being on my back and cutting away. Once I used some REALLY shitty body position because I was pumped about turning 16 points on a 4 way (I know not much but for me from 10,500 feet it was awesome) and had about 5 twist but it kept flying straight. That is not to say it can't put me in an unrecoverable spin, but it is tamer. If it does I do know my EP's. IF it ever started diving in twist screw the canopy I am chopping. That much I promise.

As far as the demos, yeah I know you can get em free. Unfortunately I work at a small family DZ that doesn't have the luxury of having them. We only have 5 or 6 employees and a 182. My DZ also relies heavily on me to be there for help in packing, teaching FJC, and coaching, but mainly packing. IT kicks the TI's ass when I work at my real job every other weekend and they have to do the tandems, shag them, and pack them. Consequently I have not gone off to boogies and left them hanging, in return they have really taken care of me. Letting me keep ungodly balances on my account, let me pay off over long periods for gear, and yes do things that most of you would consider against the grain, i.e. jump my Stiletto. These people have also seen EVERY jump I have made and know my skill level far better than most instructors know their typical student at larger DZ's.

I know I am in the lower levels of experience. I really do not want to come off as some hotshot jerk who knows better than the guys who have been around forever, but I do believe in my logic, and I do feel quite safe on it. I really am conservative in my flying too. I know people hear 100 jump wonder on a Stiletto and they conger images of a push the envelope badass. LMAO that is not me. I just want to learn, and I think that this canopy has taught me more than I otherwise would have learned by a long shot with still being safe.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[kallend 1,618]

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And hopefully you'll become that kind of data point, and not the other kind (i.e. where you do, in fact, hurt yourself, or give someone advice that follow and hurt themselves).

Wendy P.

Skydiving is not a safe activity. If you want to make sure that your advice doesn't lead to someone hurting themselves, the only sure way is to tell them not to skydive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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(which means you will NOT get the last word in unless you get it locked immediately after your last posting,

Are you gonna keep me from replying and posting? No? Then stop bitching, shut up, and either talk about the subject, or quit reading the thread.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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Haven't you said 3 or 4 times that you were done with this thread? If you can't argue your point to a winning conclusion, at least keep your word about not posting anymore.

Who said I am done arguing my point? Again stop reading if it bothers you. I will stop when I feel like it. You can stop anytime as well.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Mommy he said he was done with the thread but he won't stop posting! I'm telling! Grow up, stop bitching. Quit reading it then. Some people are actually starting to have a good talk here about it, and you have to start crying. Go away or join the meaningful part of the conversation.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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Skydiving is not a safe activity. If you want to make sure that your advice doesn't lead to someone hurting themselves, the only sure way is to tell them not to skydive.

Bravo! Why do I always hear crap like it is safer to skydive then drive your car or cross the street? You are throwing yourself out of an airplane and relying on some nylon to catch air and keep you from killing yourself. It is NOT safe.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[NovaTTT 1]

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Bravo! Why do I always hear crap like it is safer to skydive then drive your car or cross the street? You are throwing yourself out of an airplane and relying on some nylon to catch air and keep you from killing yourself. It is NOT safe.

The reason you should stop posting on this thread isn't because you've said several times you're going to, it's because the more you post the more you look like an ignorant dipshit.

Just sayin.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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the more you post the more you look like an ignorant dipshit.

read your own signature line.

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"Fuck the girl, smoke the pot, rob the boyfriend AND close the sale.

Who is the dipshit? LMAO

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

God I hope Dave and Bill actually take the time to scroll back and read my replies. They have been buried by ignorant comments.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[timmyfitz 0]

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Haven't you said 3 or 4 times that you were done with this thread? If you can't argue your point to a winning conclusion, at least keep your word about not posting anymore.

Who said I am done arguing my point?

You did.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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You did.

and now I un-did!

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[pilotdave 0]

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God I hope Dave and Bill actually take the time to scroll back and read my replies. They have been buried by ignorant comments.

You mean replies like the one below, describing your reason for choosing the Stilleto?

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"It comes down to decision time. I am not experienced enough to deal with LESS decision time under canopy. The faster my descent rate...the faster I have to set up for landing....the faster I am coming down...period."

You make your decisions based on your own limited experience. People with far more experience are suggesting that you've been drawing some incorrect conclusions. You choose to ignore them. That's fine... it's your choice. But I just hope you realize that these people are actually trying to keep you from getting hurt by educating you on why your ideas might be flawed.

Dave

[EFS4LIFE 0]

That I believe was in response to why I like a flat glide. What is your argument against that statement?

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[fasted3 0]

You seem to be saying:
I have xxx jumps, and I must downsize or go to a HP canopy, therefore I'm better off going with the Stilletto. What I think is that you don't have to do either one at this time. It's a pretty good bet that sometime in your next couple of hundred jumps something will happen that will really take you by surprise; maybe someone cuts you off, maybe an off landing that turns out to be tougher than it looked from higher up, or something else entirely. Whatever it is, your chances of getting hurt go up by not being on a tamer canopy.
In my case, it was getting cut off by a swooper when I had about 300 jumps. At the time, I was on a Silhouette loaded at about 1 to 1. I did most everything right, but still ended up hitting the ground pretty hard. I have no doubt that a smaller canopy or a higher performing one would have ended up with an injury. If the same thing happened now, I'd do a better job of it than I did then, just because of that incident. I also had an off landing that turned out much the same. I am now jumping a Safire2 at 1.2 and very aware that if I don't do a better job with those kind of things, I will get hurt. I am not ready to go with anythng less tame, for sure, but that's just me.
I don't know how things will go with you, and I wish you well. You are quite right that high jump numbers will not guarantee that you won't get hurt, and low numbers do not guarantee you will, but if you're playing the odds, it does make a difference.
Good luck.

But what do I know?

[Floflo 0]

Hi, I was only reading this thread eating pop-corn, but I have to say something:

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Why shouldn't I learn those good habits now before ever downsizing? Yeah it easy to say just practice them on a square, but realistically think about it. With everything else a jumper with my experience is learning, free flying, etc. I will not concentrate on that

Do you really think it's the safest way to learn new skills?

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unless I have a canopy that gives me feedback when I let it slip.

One day your feedback might be a very large solid object...

[PostWhorse 0]

PostWhorse nominates this for Best. Thread. Evar.

Post Whorse was here.
The semi-official dropzone.com mascot.

[pilotdave 0]

I replied a while back. Basic argument was that the stilleto is a terrible choice if more time to make decisions is what you're looking for.

Dave