councilman24 36 #26 June 9, 2006 I'll address the idea of needing more glide. SPOT! Spotting is not which side of the airport. It's which 200' diameter circle on the ground you want the student to open over. Remember, we succesfully put out students on ROUND parachutes for decades. And routinely they landed within 200' of where we wanted, usually closer. With essentially NO glide. I jumped a round for the first time in 18 years two years ago. From 5000', the spot was about a 1/2 mile out, and put it in the peas. No I don't expect a student to do that on there own. But if they can't get back with radio help remedial training of the jumpmasters, excuse me, instructors is necessary. A higher performing canopy is NOT the answer to bad spotting. Rant off.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #27 June 10, 2006 Quoteand spend their time writing sarcastic songs are appreciated Thank you, that means something to me."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #28 June 10, 2006 Okay, I'll bite....but why stope at a Stilleto ? Why not a Katana, or better yet, a Velocity ? Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #29 June 12, 2006 Just out of curiosity, and not 'having a go', but the original poster does not appear (according to profile) to jump a Stilletto - sticking to a much more conservative Spectre choice. Why is that? Could those reasons be similar to some of the reasons not to put a student with no knowledge of canopy handling or deployment body position on a Stilletto?*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #30 June 13, 2006 I'm coming up on 2000 AFF dives, and like Chuck, have dispatched 1000's of Static line students over the last 20 years. My DZ is 5000ft AMSL and experiences extreme Density Altitude issues in the summer. Like Chuck, I've used large student ZP canopies (Skymasters, almost without exception) for my students, usually in the 290 to 200 sq ft range. I jump a Stilleto. It's loaded to about 1.85, and I feel it's an OK canopy for some of my skydiving needs. It's been around a long time now, coming up on 15 years. We know it well. It's NOT the canopy I use for wingsuit dives because of the spin-up thingy and the fact that wingsuit manufacturers and the wingsuit instructional ratings that I hold do not recomend highly loaded elipticals for use with their wingsuits. I use a Safire loaded to about 1.85 as a wingsuit canopy and find it suitably forgiving. Perhaps I rate myself too highly, but even in a poorly controlled wingsuit deployment, I think I'm probably more in control of my body position than someone with 20 skydives, but I choose not to use a Stilleto for this task. The poll indicates that apart from a "lunatic fringe" the vast majority of respondents are clear that the Stilleto will never be a student canopy. I suspect that if the poll were restricted to instructors - it would be even less in favour of Stilletos for students. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #31 June 14, 2006 You've never heard of "Murphys Law".....have you???.... It applies to students.....by a factor of about 10....no matter how good the instructor..... Back the stiletto truck up.....don't even go there....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #32 June 14, 2006 no matter how much you train a student on canopy flight, they will f*ck up. You could spend hours with them discussing canopy flight, have them watch videos, and I know they will flare too high or too low on at least one jump. stilletos (like any HP canopy) are much less forgiving of f*ckups then navigators. Its that simple. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #33 June 20, 2006 In 1997 I was trained on Sabres ranging from about 210 down to 170 by the time I finished AFP at Skydive Chicago. I don't recall any Stilletos being used, but wouldn't recommend it for students. The older Stilletos (c. 1996) were less forgiving canopies than some others, as far as poor body position on opening. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyer299 0 #34 June 28, 2006 View the attached Wing Loading Chart. I think that it says it all. Student: Not Recommended Novice: Not Recommended Intermediate: Not Recommened (Until 170SQ or Bigger). I don't understand why we are even talking about this? Of course it is a bad idea for a student to jump a Stiletto at any wing loading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #35 July 2, 2006 in reply to "Stilleto as a Student Canopy " ................... Going back to roundies would be better than forward to stilletto's (in my opinion ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CesspoolDave 0 #36 July 13, 2006 Dude, here's my 2 cents... I started jumping a batwing 153 when I had less than 75 jumps... stupid. I started jumping a stiletto 150 with just over 120 jumps, again...stupid. I eventually learned how to safely pilot the canopy, and not kill myself (long and high straight in approaches)... and I considered myself ( and it was the opionion of others ) that I was a decent enough canopy pilot not to kill myself, but it was still risky. forward to today... I was watching a student, either last weekend, or the weekend before, at my home DZ, jumping a Navigator... he's got less than 20 jumps, but is a heads up, athletic kid. He flared that thing way too high, like many students I've seen... and he did what all his instructors told him, if you flare too high, continue to hold the full flare, and prepare to PLF. He did that.... and after a premature flare at about 15 feet, his descent literally stopped. However, the canopy didn't smack him... it floated him from 15 feet, ever so gingerly to the ground, and he stood up the landing with some deep knee bending.... My point... if the kid was on a Stilleto 190, he would have at a minimum, a broken ankle, or perhaps worse. The stilletto would have paid him dearly for such a seemingly innocent and oh so typical error. NAVIGATOR FOR STUDENT = GOOD STILETTO FOR STUDENT = BAD Yes, I only have 300 jumps... so throw your spears if you disagree."I have no fear of falling, but I hate hitting the ground" -The Badlees Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #37 July 25, 2006 QuoteThanatos, you point out that need for very good body position on deployment--well, why is that a BAD thing to emphasize? Spinning up on deployment? (Just to challenge this very common myth, Craig Girard of Airspeed and I were talking about the "Spinetto" and he said to forget about the spin ups--he had 12,000-13,000 jumps on Stilettos and only one cutaway. So, it CAN be done...with the emphasis on good body position and some well-trained EPs) Students do not have the body position control of a many time world champion. A Stiletto is not a good student canopy. It is too sensitive, reacts too fast with small inputs and needs a good body position to deploy well. This from an AFFF "I" with over 2,000 jumps on a Stiletto."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #38 July 25, 2006 Quotewhy exactly is it a bad choice for a student canopy? Because in order to learn the advanced stuff, you have to survive the beginners stuff? Not much point in giving a student a canopy that has an excellent flare and much better flying characteristics if at the same time that canopy has the potential to kill or seriously hurt them when they are making all sorts of student mistakes like flare unevenly, make sharp turns to close to the ground, flare to high and let the canopy back up etcetera. Given the choice I'd rather have one in every 10 students limp a few days and be bruised up a bit than one in every 50 students undergoing major surgery or ending up in a wheelchair or a coffin... And if you think stupid student mistakes will not happen with some sort of advanced high tech state of the art learning program - think again. Better yet, train more students... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,618 #39 August 2, 2006 QuoteI come from a dz where Stilettos are very popular among the up jumpers. It seems to us that most of the "spinetto" incidents requiring cut away seem to come from old line sets and subterminal openings. I have also heard that SDC used Stilettos for students but haven't seen it myself. I love Stilettos on women I did AFP at Skydive Chicago. Students were not put out on Stilettos. Depending on the year, it was Sabres, Safires or Sabre2s. I made my first Stiletto jump at jump 48, with a WL of approx 1.1 I liked it better than the Sabre, so I bought one. A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #40 August 2, 2006 QuoteI did AFP at Skydive Chicago. Students were not put out on Stilettos. Depending on the year, it was Sabres, Safires or Sabre2s. I made my first Stiletto jump at jump 48, with a WL of approx 1.1 I liked it better than the Sabre, so I bought one. A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical. You are also not a typical student. Would you let your son do a FJC with a stiletto?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #41 August 2, 2006 QuoteYou are also not a typical student. Would you let your son do a FJC with a stiletto? Everyone likes to think they are not a typical student. A Stiletto at 48 jumps is a foolish choice no matter what. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 August 2, 2006 QuoteEveryone likes to think they are not a typical student. A Stiletto at 48 jumps is a foolish choice no matter what. Kallend is a Professor of Physics, has a pilots license and IIRC, spent a good bit of time in gliders. He is also AVP of the Academy of Model Aeronautics...Like I said not your typical homeboy. But you are right everyone thinks they are special...And most are not. Anyone else find it funny the title of this thread has the canopy misspelled?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #43 August 2, 2006 I usually look at the web page or the data panel so I spell it right. But it doesn't always work.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,618 #44 August 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteI did AFP at Skydive Chicago. Students were not put out on Stilettos. Depending on the year, it was Sabres, Safires or Sabre2s. I made my first Stiletto jump at jump 48, with a WL of approx 1.1 I liked it better than the Sabre, so I bought one. A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical. You are also not a typical student. Would you let your son do a FJC with a stiletto? AS I wrote, neither I nor other STUDENTS jumped Stilettos.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #45 August 3, 2006 Correct, but you didn't say anything close to an opinion on the matter, "I did AFP at Skydive Chicago. Students were not put out on Stilettos. Depending on the year, it was Sabres, Safires or Sabre2s. I made my first Stiletto jump at jump 48, with a WL of approx 1.1 I liked it better than the Sabre, so I bought one. A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical." No where do you answer the question asked. When asked a direct question, you avoided answering it as well. Again just stating what happend, not your thoughts on students on Stilettos. John, we KNOW SDC did not put students on Stilettos....We also know you as a student were not on a stiletto...However the question you avoided was if you thought they should be, or even could be...And the closest you answered was, "A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical." So please, lets try a simple question with a yes/no answer. Do you think students should be on Stiletto's?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,618 #46 August 3, 2006 QuoteCorrect, but you didn't say anything close to an opinion on the matter, "I did AFP at Skydive Chicago. Students were not put out on Stilettos. Depending on the year, it was Sabres, Safires or Sabre2s. I made my first Stiletto jump at jump 48, with a WL of approx 1.1 I liked it better than the Sabre, so I bought one. A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical." No where do you answer the question asked. When asked a direct question, you avoided answering it as well. Again just stating what happend, not your thoughts on students on Stilettos. John, we KNOW SDC did not put students on Stilettos....We also know you as a student were not on a stiletto...However the question you avoided was if you thought they should be, or even could be...And the closest you answered was, "A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical." So please, lets try a simple question with a yes/no answer. Do you think students should be on Stiletto's? No. Sabre2s are just fine.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quinny 0 #47 August 10, 2006 I also have dispatched thousands of s/l students and I would not want to s/l a stilleto!!! From a 206 line twist are common if not probable. Therefore I agree with SkymonkeyONE......Stilleto is not a student canopy Quinny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpusPilotus 0 #48 August 10, 2006 The Stiletto was my first HP canopy. After about 400 jumps on it, I'm just starting to master it's flying characteristics and feel comfortable with it. How in the name of God someone would put a student on that kind of canopy without bad intentions????? Just a question for experienced Stiletto pilots: is it me or the front risers a way heavier than other types of canopies???_________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #49 August 10, 2006 QuoteJust a question for experienced Stiletto pilots: is it me or the front risers a way heavier than other types of canopies??? They are heavier...But they were designed 15 years ago and that was before people really wanted light riser pressure."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #50 August 16, 2006 QuoteI come from a dz where Stilettos are very popular among the up jumpers. It seems to us that most of the "spinetto" incidents requiring cut away seem to come from old line sets and subterminal openings. I have also heard that SDC used Stilettos for students but haven't seen it myself. I have never seen a stilletto on a student at SDC nor do I think they would allow it. Sabre 2 hell yes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
