Shyandinnocent 0 #1 March 2, 2006 Inspired by all the good tips in the "Words of wisdom for new tandem masters" thread, how about sharing some of that wisdom and experience for us new AFF instructors? What have you learned the hard way? What are the big red flags you have learned to recognize? Anyone have any specific advice for female instructors? All the more experienced instructors on my DZ are male, so not much help with that specific question there... Would love to hear from you!!! It's never too late for a low turn! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 March 2, 2006 1. Find a mentor. 2. Do a lot of AFF with them. 3. Do AFF with others. 4. Never think you know how a dive will turn out. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 0 #3 March 2, 2006 You're going to learn so much!! I love doing AFF and being female is no disadvantage at all. Get weights if you need them. Things I learnt early on... small, light, flexible girls can give you the hardest ride of all!! Just because a student performs perefctly all the way though to wave off... still doesn't mean they going to pull!! Repeatedly tell you students that you will not be leaving them at wave off... Do not go up in the air with a student until you are completely happy that they have understood and practiced on the ground everything they need to know!! Listen to how other instructors debrief and train students on the ground... sometimes the way you say or describe something to a student can make all the difference!! Have fun Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #4 March 2, 2006 Quote1. Find a mentor. 2. Do a lot of AFF with them. 3. Do AFF with others. 4. Never think you know how a dive will turn out. t 5. Be humble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superfletch 1 #5 March 2, 2006 QuoteRepeatedly tell you students that you will not be leaving them at wave off... hehehehe... amen. I just recently got my AFF, however, I filmed a bunch last year. The most memorable one I filmed was this dude that just kept waiving off. On the ground he says, I didn't pull because you guys wouldn't leave. His dive was PERFECT up until that point. That was the advice that both of the instructors walked away with that day. We all got a chuckle for weeks. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanglesOZQld 0 #6 March 2, 2006 1. Find a mentor. 2. Do a lot of AFF with them. 3. Do AFF with others. 4. Never think you know how a dive will turn out. 5. Be humble. 6. See 4. I have been head down with my CI above the back of an "average student." (Read - Hanging onto a green wheelie bin full of cement - not sure what you guys and girls have in the usa but our green waste bins hold I reckon at least 150 litres ;) 7. Always be prepared to learn ANYTHING and stay current with regs and training procedure/s especially at your home dz. 8. DO NOT get a "hot" canopy!! (Some spots suck at times whether your fault or another persons so get used to landing off and accurately. BE PREPARED TO HELP THE STUDENT WITH AN OFF DZ LANDING! (Hard to do with a small/very small canopy.) BSBD!! -Mark. QUOTE - "It's the year of the Dog" Really?? I am according to the chinese as well as a few females with foresight! ;( "A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,114 #7 March 2, 2006 Biggest tip I have (and it's an old one) is to really prepare the student, as much as their own pace as you can. The more that happens during the skydive that seems familiar to the student from the preparation, the more likely they are to react predictably. Not always by any means, but it helps a lot. A whole lot. Never neglect the student part for the skydiving part. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimoke 0 #8 March 2, 2006 try to be proactive instead of reactive. in other words, don't get caught watching what your student "is" doing.......try to see what they are "going" to do. AND. Never follow a student below your hard deck! Stay Safe and don't forget to smile, it works wonders with your students. JimokeThe ground always, remembers where you are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #9 March 3, 2006 Everyone has gave great advice - I am a big advocate of ground training an educating the student, knowledge dispels fear and a well trained student in my limited experience will perform better. Just be the best you can be! Oh yeah, don’t die...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #10 March 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteRepeatedly tell you students that you will not be leaving them at wave off... hehehehe... amen. I just recently got my AFF, however, I filmed a bunch last year. The most memorable one I filmed was this dude that just kept waiving off. On the ground he says, I didn't pull because you guys wouldn't leave. His dive was PERFECT up until that point. That was the advice that both of the instructors walked away with that day. We all got a chuckle for weeks. Sounds like the instructors "failed" to teach the whole diveflow on that one - if the student was that aware and had reasons for doing what he was doing..... There was one sentence that my instructor forgot to tell me on my level four that caused me to do exactly what I was trained on previous levels - and fail my level four... It was, what you are supposed to do if you lose your instructor... The video shows I spent 10 seconds looking for him with textbook turns, he just was flying above where I could not see him... This happened after a tumbled exit, so I thought he was far away... So, "If you lose one instructor continue the dive - if you lose both instructors, pull" rule popped in my mind... I had zero instructors within eyesite, so I thought I had to pull. I slowly waved off, thought, "this sucks, I am flying stable" and pulled, way up there... Found out on the ground that the rules changed, and the instructor who was on back-to-backs did not tell me in my pre-brief the "CIA" or "5 Second Rule" or what to do if I could not find him. Lesson learned as someone who is learning to be an instructor... Don't ever assume someone on a previous level taught something, and find a way to keep your instruction consistent, even when you are rushed... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #11 March 3, 2006 Just my $.02 Don't ever become complacent or loose your edge as students seem to sense when you're least prepared and will surprise you at that very moment, unitentionally of course. A great top end skydive does not garauntee a great bottom end, be ready! Don't rush students to get on a load, even if they say they are ready and you know they are not. Smiling is the absolute best signal fro any moment! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #12 March 4, 2006 QuoteSounds like the instructors "failed" to teach the whole diveflow on that one - if the student was that aware and had reasons for doing what he was doing..... You have a lot to learn. You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. Conversely, students may just get by on the ground, but kick ass in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #13 March 4, 2006 Quote You have a lot to learn. You are 100% right on that one!!!! Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. Conversely, students may just get by on the ground, but kick ass in the air. Ya, but when a student completely messes up, but does what they *thought* they were supposed to do, and is completely *in the game* but playing by a different rule book.... Don't you as an instructor ever take *some* of the heat yourself for not effectively building the proper visualization for the student... I would... I accept the fact I won't be perfect ever, but getting one step closer each time by analyzing what went wrong, seems to be a cool thing to do... Something like, "my student thought I was going to XXX... How can I teach the next student to see it properly???" For an example, Hooknswoop one night at his house was telling me something like (this was a while ago, so I hope I am remembering in a way he would want), "video every AFF jump"... "Every time a student spins up or rolls over, analyze every part of their body, so you can learn the warning signs for next time and you can stop it before it happens..." I just thought that was a cool attitude. Taking that one step farther, when a student does something that you did not want them to do - shouldn't the instructor take some of the heat for not effectively training? (we are not talking about bowling candidates who are not teachable, or heat like getting fired, but personal evaluation to improve their own skills) Hence, that is why I said originally that the student was not effectively taught... Because "effective" means "success" - and the student was not successful... I guess when I have done coach jumps and they turned out less than what I wanted, I always blame myself for not being an effective teacher, not the student for "failing". Just throwing out ideas... I am not an AFF-I yet, and I have never played one on TV... Just trying to learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #14 March 4, 2006 Relax, young padawan. We can teach you everything we know and you will still not be totally prepared. The only way you will learn/know is by doing it. If you feel you can train your students so they will be perfect, congratulations. Video is a great tool. You should do this on all of your work-up jumps. Unfortunately, Level 1s are the only AFFs that get video, unless of course, the student opts to get the others done. Those single JM AFFs are cool if you are on them. I still don't know everything, but am willing to learn from others who have been in the business longer than I have. I've made close to 1,000 AFFs since being rated in March of 03. That's more than most of my mentors, but I still learn from them. You would be wise to listen more than talk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #15 March 4, 2006 QuoteYou would be wise to listen more than talk. Point taken... BTW... Sometimes I throw out the devils advocate ideas, especially online - so I can hear what people's responses are... Call it conversation or debate. Not trying to troll or anything, but getting thoughts out there to see what sticks... But I hear ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #16 March 4, 2006 Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. I've had that guy too! [cough] Huh Shark? [/cough] Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #17 March 4, 2006 As mentioned in a PM, I feel you have the student's best interest in mind. We all do, but sometimes shit happens. Yes, I feel bad when a student is not getting with the program. When they have to repeat, I have failed in part of my instruction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #18 March 4, 2006 Quote Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. I've had that guy too! [cough] Huh Shark? [/cough] Be safe Ed And speaking of video..... You still have that Z1 fullface? BTW, you guys did your best. I just sucked! (For all that are interested: my 1st, and 2nd Level 3) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #19 March 4, 2006 Quote You still have that Z1 fullface? It was my Factory Diver. Z1's weren't made then.... QuoteBTW, you guys did your best. As every AFF I should do on every jump with a student! QuoteI just sucked! Come on, you know you only sucked once on your L3. And look at ya now Bro. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #20 March 15, 2006 Female AFF Instructor here ... Been doing AFF since 2002. Best words of advice either learned from other very good instructors or my own experience: 1) DRESS FOR SUCCESS. Watch those really heavy people (and watch the really light ones too). 2) Know your limits and don't let others convince you of what they are. 3) Be prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it. . When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. 4) If you are by yourself on say a solo turn dive and have to stop a turn from the reserve side near or at pull time, if a student won't open their parachute and you are unable to dump them for whatever reason, remember the reserve handle is on your side. You can always pull that. 5) Communicate with your students. When they check in with you, even though you may be working your butt off, make eye contact with them and smile. Smiling is the biggest relax signal of all. 6) If a student takes you on a ride or nearly gives you a heart attack, high five them after they land and start the debrief off with something positive. 7) Find another AFF Instructor who you like and trust and go to them with your questions. You should have many. 8) Relax but not to the point that you are complacent. 9) When a student goes through and reviews the skydive in the airplane or on the ground, pay attention to the ways in which they deviate from the planned skydive. Many times it is a good indication of what they will do in the air. 10) Never panic. 11) Always be prepared ahead of time for an aircraft emergency with a student. There is a very good chance that it "could" happen eventually. 12) Don't ever think we can't do it as good as boys do. 13) Have fun and think about what an honor you hold to be able to take someone out on their first skydive or their graduation dive into the skydiving community. Because it truly is a gift. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #21 March 15, 2006 QuoteHot Female AFF Instructor here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #22 March 15, 2006 QuoteBe prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it.When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. First off, slapping the hand holding onto the PC could result in the PC or bridal becoming entangled with the instructor. Throwing the PC is a good thing to go over until the student understands that "pulling" is not enough, this is why we took out the word "pull" in all of our training material at the DZ I work at and why I never use the word "pull" when training students. Seems like a small thing, but the word “pull” might instill something in their heads without the knowledge that the term comes from the ripcord days and semantically does not apply today. Early on I experienced this situation more often than I wanted, and in attempts to minimize this occurrence I tried the following: 1) Changed the words I was using in training from “pull” to “throw” 2) Explained why holding the PC will not deploy the main 3) On a creeper had them actually throw a dummy PC several times 4) On one of the practice throws had them hold the PC in their hand and asked how I was going to get them to get go of it. The common response was “Shake me?” A trick I learned from an old old OLD timer instructor was to punch them in the ribs and they would let go of the PC right away, so on the ground during the practice throw session I told them that this was what I would do, punch them as hard as I could right in the ribs. Although I have never actually punched a student to get them to let go of the PC just telling them during this portion of the training was sufficient enough to get students to throw the PC and not hold onto it. This training takes 5 minutes or less and since I started utilizing this training technique not a single student – not one has held onto the PC since. “When they still won't let go, pull the main pin” This is a very bad idea for the following reasons: 1) I have seen a video where the student held on to the PC and thinking a Total Mal had occurred deployed the reserve immediately, had the instructor reached over and pulled the main pin a two out situation would have occurred. Unbelievably the student landed the reserve with the PC tucked away beneath the Jumpsuit! 2) There is a chance the bridal or lines could snag on the instructor. 3) There is a chance the bridal could take a wrap around the student’s wrist or around the PC creating a knot (I have seen this) and could result in a nasty Horseshoe. Students will hold on to PC’s, it is just a fact of this business we are in and the best way I have found to substantially reduce this situation is to ground train specifically on the importance of a good clean throw, keeping the palm skyward to avoid a bridal entanglement while maintaining a good body position. I have been in a few hairy situations and have seen videos much worse than what I have experienced, it is definitely worth the five extra minutes of ground training . A few extra minutes on the ground could save a bad situation in the air. I am looking forward to input from other AFF Instructors concerning this issue.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #23 March 16, 2006 Right on, good comments AFF I. Yep, I had the same argument with another AFF I about the student holding the PC. After encountering this phenomenon of students not wanting to let go of their pilot chute, I was baffled. I remember the first time a student did that to me on main side. I was like why in the heck would they hold on to that thing? And after seeing another instructor on video turn and track after thinking the student let go ... looked back ... and the horror! I heard one of our AFF Is use the comparison of "Throw that thing like it is on fire." Those are the words use now to tell a student what I want them to do after they initiate their pull procedures. I think it generally gets the point across. A threat to punch them in the ribs? Hmmm. I like it, especially if it works. But ... we cannot actually physically strike our students. I've seen it done and heard it done but not good for video ... no no. I've seen AFF-Is smack students in the head, karate chop their legs to get them to straighten them, etc. Although I have learned to get a little more tough than I used to be, that is just not my style. I do agree that fear does work though as a motivator. My AFF I scared the shit out of me and it worked. Anyhow, going on a tangeant here ... my main point was that I had the same argument with an AFF I evaluator about a student not letting go of the PC. He said pull the pin out. I said what about a horseshoe if the bridle gets wrapped around their hand? I can see it happening. He said, if you pull the pin, they are going to let go of the pilot chute guaranteed and the parachute is going to open. I thought about it and it made sense. I have not had to use that technique yet, hopefully won't have to. Just a last ditch effort idea I guess. I like the threat thing. Maybe I will have to use that one sometime. Especially if it is a really big guy Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #24 March 16, 2006 Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #25 March 16, 2006 The rib punch is not a threat; think of it as informing your student as to what the safest (for you) and most expedient solution is if they hold the PC. Educate them about the dangers and how making this mistake can be very costly as well as being a huge concern for instructors. Tumbling and spinning (freefall) situations are easily handled if I stay ultra close and handle my student with an "I own them" mentality while I am smiling at them telling them to relax, as long as remain in control and don’t over amp its cool. In the beginning being over aggressive when making a save has been counterproductive as compared to being where I am supposed to be and being in control of myself. Having had great mentors concerning how to handle situations helped me a lot in the real world and really helped me to get in control along with practice. Will still go up with another instructor and practice assisted roll overs and spin stops from time to time especially at the beginning of the season. Some of the hairiest and scariest videos and personal experiences have been of students holding onto the PC with the bridal bouncing around wildly, there is so much that can go wrong. As an instructor I train for every situation I can think of and having a poorly thrown PC to me is one of the areas I think about often. Spidey sense is always tingling at deployment time. When ground training I don’t use the word “Pull”, its not pull time its deployment time… Most importantly don’t overlook the most important factor of my reply to your post is the additional training for PC throwing. 5 minutes or less (more if necessary) doing practice throws on a creeper has provided unbelievably productive results. With a mirror in front of the creeper for observation of good body position, proper technique in throwing to avoid an entanglement and having them shout “throw” when they toss that PC is a great reinforcement. Luckily I was able to find some really good ground training mentors who assisted in my development but despite their experience and my respect for them not everything they professed sounded to me like a good idea at the time but most of it made some sort of sense. Good instructors go the extra mile; mediocre instructors make the most jumps… Personally, I am not there to make the most jumps, I am there to properly train people how to do something insanely dangerous and unforgiving of mistakes or improper training and practices. One last comment in this long post – having a preplanned course of action is highly recommended for high speed situations Although I do not believe that actually hitting another human being is “right”; my preplanned course for a PC being held (too long) is currently to follow through with the rib punch because I have been exposed to video that illustrated its effectiveness and the instructor who taught me this solution was very adept in his understanding of all the things that could go with this situation not to mention his 30 years of experience. Make it a great day!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Shark 0 #12 March 4, 2006 QuoteSounds like the instructors "failed" to teach the whole diveflow on that one - if the student was that aware and had reasons for doing what he was doing..... You have a lot to learn. You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. Conversely, students may just get by on the ground, but kick ass in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #13 March 4, 2006 Quote You have a lot to learn. You are 100% right on that one!!!! Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. Conversely, students may just get by on the ground, but kick ass in the air. Ya, but when a student completely messes up, but does what they *thought* they were supposed to do, and is completely *in the game* but playing by a different rule book.... Don't you as an instructor ever take *some* of the heat yourself for not effectively building the proper visualization for the student... I would... I accept the fact I won't be perfect ever, but getting one step closer each time by analyzing what went wrong, seems to be a cool thing to do... Something like, "my student thought I was going to XXX... How can I teach the next student to see it properly???" For an example, Hooknswoop one night at his house was telling me something like (this was a while ago, so I hope I am remembering in a way he would want), "video every AFF jump"... "Every time a student spins up or rolls over, analyze every part of their body, so you can learn the warning signs for next time and you can stop it before it happens..." I just thought that was a cool attitude. Taking that one step farther, when a student does something that you did not want them to do - shouldn't the instructor take some of the heat for not effectively training? (we are not talking about bowling candidates who are not teachable, or heat like getting fired, but personal evaluation to improve their own skills) Hence, that is why I said originally that the student was not effectively taught... Because "effective" means "success" - and the student was not successful... I guess when I have done coach jumps and they turned out less than what I wanted, I always blame myself for not being an effective teacher, not the student for "failing". Just throwing out ideas... I am not an AFF-I yet, and I have never played one on TV... Just trying to learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #14 March 4, 2006 Relax, young padawan. We can teach you everything we know and you will still not be totally prepared. The only way you will learn/know is by doing it. If you feel you can train your students so they will be perfect, congratulations. Video is a great tool. You should do this on all of your work-up jumps. Unfortunately, Level 1s are the only AFFs that get video, unless of course, the student opts to get the others done. Those single JM AFFs are cool if you are on them. I still don't know everything, but am willing to learn from others who have been in the business longer than I have. I've made close to 1,000 AFFs since being rated in March of 03. That's more than most of my mentors, but I still learn from them. You would be wise to listen more than talk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #15 March 4, 2006 QuoteYou would be wise to listen more than talk. Point taken... BTW... Sometimes I throw out the devils advocate ideas, especially online - so I can hear what people's responses are... Call it conversation or debate. Not trying to troll or anything, but getting thoughts out there to see what sticks... But I hear ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #16 March 4, 2006 Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. I've had that guy too! [cough] Huh Shark? [/cough] Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #17 March 4, 2006 As mentioned in a PM, I feel you have the student's best interest in mind. We all do, but sometimes shit happens. Yes, I feel bad when a student is not getting with the program. When they have to repeat, I have failed in part of my instruction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #18 March 4, 2006 Quote Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. I've had that guy too! [cough] Huh Shark? [/cough] Be safe Ed And speaking of video..... You still have that Z1 fullface? BTW, you guys did your best. I just sucked! (For all that are interested: my 1st, and 2nd Level 3) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #19 March 4, 2006 Quote You still have that Z1 fullface? It was my Factory Diver. Z1's weren't made then.... QuoteBTW, you guys did your best. As every AFF I should do on every jump with a student! QuoteI just sucked! Come on, you know you only sucked once on your L3. And look at ya now Bro. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #20 March 15, 2006 Female AFF Instructor here ... Been doing AFF since 2002. Best words of advice either learned from other very good instructors or my own experience: 1) DRESS FOR SUCCESS. Watch those really heavy people (and watch the really light ones too). 2) Know your limits and don't let others convince you of what they are. 3) Be prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it. . When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. 4) If you are by yourself on say a solo turn dive and have to stop a turn from the reserve side near or at pull time, if a student won't open their parachute and you are unable to dump them for whatever reason, remember the reserve handle is on your side. You can always pull that. 5) Communicate with your students. When they check in with you, even though you may be working your butt off, make eye contact with them and smile. Smiling is the biggest relax signal of all. 6) If a student takes you on a ride or nearly gives you a heart attack, high five them after they land and start the debrief off with something positive. 7) Find another AFF Instructor who you like and trust and go to them with your questions. You should have many. 8) Relax but not to the point that you are complacent. 9) When a student goes through and reviews the skydive in the airplane or on the ground, pay attention to the ways in which they deviate from the planned skydive. Many times it is a good indication of what they will do in the air. 10) Never panic. 11) Always be prepared ahead of time for an aircraft emergency with a student. There is a very good chance that it "could" happen eventually. 12) Don't ever think we can't do it as good as boys do. 13) Have fun and think about what an honor you hold to be able to take someone out on their first skydive or their graduation dive into the skydiving community. Because it truly is a gift. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #21 March 15, 2006 QuoteHot Female AFF Instructor here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #22 March 15, 2006 QuoteBe prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it.When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. First off, slapping the hand holding onto the PC could result in the PC or bridal becoming entangled with the instructor. Throwing the PC is a good thing to go over until the student understands that "pulling" is not enough, this is why we took out the word "pull" in all of our training material at the DZ I work at and why I never use the word "pull" when training students. Seems like a small thing, but the word “pull” might instill something in their heads without the knowledge that the term comes from the ripcord days and semantically does not apply today. Early on I experienced this situation more often than I wanted, and in attempts to minimize this occurrence I tried the following: 1) Changed the words I was using in training from “pull” to “throw” 2) Explained why holding the PC will not deploy the main 3) On a creeper had them actually throw a dummy PC several times 4) On one of the practice throws had them hold the PC in their hand and asked how I was going to get them to get go of it. The common response was “Shake me?” A trick I learned from an old old OLD timer instructor was to punch them in the ribs and they would let go of the PC right away, so on the ground during the practice throw session I told them that this was what I would do, punch them as hard as I could right in the ribs. Although I have never actually punched a student to get them to let go of the PC just telling them during this portion of the training was sufficient enough to get students to throw the PC and not hold onto it. This training takes 5 minutes or less and since I started utilizing this training technique not a single student – not one has held onto the PC since. “When they still won't let go, pull the main pin” This is a very bad idea for the following reasons: 1) I have seen a video where the student held on to the PC and thinking a Total Mal had occurred deployed the reserve immediately, had the instructor reached over and pulled the main pin a two out situation would have occurred. Unbelievably the student landed the reserve with the PC tucked away beneath the Jumpsuit! 2) There is a chance the bridal or lines could snag on the instructor. 3) There is a chance the bridal could take a wrap around the student’s wrist or around the PC creating a knot (I have seen this) and could result in a nasty Horseshoe. Students will hold on to PC’s, it is just a fact of this business we are in and the best way I have found to substantially reduce this situation is to ground train specifically on the importance of a good clean throw, keeping the palm skyward to avoid a bridal entanglement while maintaining a good body position. I have been in a few hairy situations and have seen videos much worse than what I have experienced, it is definitely worth the five extra minutes of ground training . A few extra minutes on the ground could save a bad situation in the air. I am looking forward to input from other AFF Instructors concerning this issue.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #23 March 16, 2006 Right on, good comments AFF I. Yep, I had the same argument with another AFF I about the student holding the PC. After encountering this phenomenon of students not wanting to let go of their pilot chute, I was baffled. I remember the first time a student did that to me on main side. I was like why in the heck would they hold on to that thing? And after seeing another instructor on video turn and track after thinking the student let go ... looked back ... and the horror! I heard one of our AFF Is use the comparison of "Throw that thing like it is on fire." Those are the words use now to tell a student what I want them to do after they initiate their pull procedures. I think it generally gets the point across. A threat to punch them in the ribs? Hmmm. I like it, especially if it works. But ... we cannot actually physically strike our students. I've seen it done and heard it done but not good for video ... no no. I've seen AFF-Is smack students in the head, karate chop their legs to get them to straighten them, etc. Although I have learned to get a little more tough than I used to be, that is just not my style. I do agree that fear does work though as a motivator. My AFF I scared the shit out of me and it worked. Anyhow, going on a tangeant here ... my main point was that I had the same argument with an AFF I evaluator about a student not letting go of the PC. He said pull the pin out. I said what about a horseshoe if the bridle gets wrapped around their hand? I can see it happening. He said, if you pull the pin, they are going to let go of the pilot chute guaranteed and the parachute is going to open. I thought about it and it made sense. I have not had to use that technique yet, hopefully won't have to. Just a last ditch effort idea I guess. I like the threat thing. Maybe I will have to use that one sometime. Especially if it is a really big guy Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #24 March 16, 2006 Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #25 March 16, 2006 The rib punch is not a threat; think of it as informing your student as to what the safest (for you) and most expedient solution is if they hold the PC. Educate them about the dangers and how making this mistake can be very costly as well as being a huge concern for instructors. Tumbling and spinning (freefall) situations are easily handled if I stay ultra close and handle my student with an "I own them" mentality while I am smiling at them telling them to relax, as long as remain in control and don’t over amp its cool. In the beginning being over aggressive when making a save has been counterproductive as compared to being where I am supposed to be and being in control of myself. Having had great mentors concerning how to handle situations helped me a lot in the real world and really helped me to get in control along with practice. Will still go up with another instructor and practice assisted roll overs and spin stops from time to time especially at the beginning of the season. Some of the hairiest and scariest videos and personal experiences have been of students holding onto the PC with the bridal bouncing around wildly, there is so much that can go wrong. As an instructor I train for every situation I can think of and having a poorly thrown PC to me is one of the areas I think about often. Spidey sense is always tingling at deployment time. When ground training I don’t use the word “Pull”, its not pull time its deployment time… Most importantly don’t overlook the most important factor of my reply to your post is the additional training for PC throwing. 5 minutes or less (more if necessary) doing practice throws on a creeper has provided unbelievably productive results. With a mirror in front of the creeper for observation of good body position, proper technique in throwing to avoid an entanglement and having them shout “throw” when they toss that PC is a great reinforcement. Luckily I was able to find some really good ground training mentors who assisted in my development but despite their experience and my respect for them not everything they professed sounded to me like a good idea at the time but most of it made some sort of sense. Good instructors go the extra mile; mediocre instructors make the most jumps… Personally, I am not there to make the most jumps, I am there to properly train people how to do something insanely dangerous and unforgiving of mistakes or improper training and practices. One last comment in this long post – having a preplanned course of action is highly recommended for high speed situations Although I do not believe that actually hitting another human being is “right”; my preplanned course for a PC being held (too long) is currently to follow through with the rib punch because I have been exposed to video that illustrated its effectiveness and the instructor who taught me this solution was very adept in his understanding of all the things that could go with this situation not to mention his 30 years of experience. Make it a great day!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Shark 0 #17 March 4, 2006 As mentioned in a PM, I feel you have the student's best interest in mind. We all do, but sometimes shit happens. Yes, I feel bad when a student is not getting with the program. When they have to repeat, I have failed in part of my instruction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #18 March 4, 2006 Quote Quote You can NEVER tell how a student will do in the air. I've had students nail the dive flow on the ground, then totally blow it in the air. I've had that guy too! [cough] Huh Shark? [/cough] Be safe Ed And speaking of video..... You still have that Z1 fullface? BTW, you guys did your best. I just sucked! (For all that are interested: my 1st, and 2nd Level 3) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #19 March 4, 2006 Quote You still have that Z1 fullface? It was my Factory Diver. Z1's weren't made then.... QuoteBTW, you guys did your best. As every AFF I should do on every jump with a student! QuoteI just sucked! Come on, you know you only sucked once on your L3. And look at ya now Bro. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #20 March 15, 2006 Female AFF Instructor here ... Been doing AFF since 2002. Best words of advice either learned from other very good instructors or my own experience: 1) DRESS FOR SUCCESS. Watch those really heavy people (and watch the really light ones too). 2) Know your limits and don't let others convince you of what they are. 3) Be prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it. . When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. 4) If you are by yourself on say a solo turn dive and have to stop a turn from the reserve side near or at pull time, if a student won't open their parachute and you are unable to dump them for whatever reason, remember the reserve handle is on your side. You can always pull that. 5) Communicate with your students. When they check in with you, even though you may be working your butt off, make eye contact with them and smile. Smiling is the biggest relax signal of all. 6) If a student takes you on a ride or nearly gives you a heart attack, high five them after they land and start the debrief off with something positive. 7) Find another AFF Instructor who you like and trust and go to them with your questions. You should have many. 8) Relax but not to the point that you are complacent. 9) When a student goes through and reviews the skydive in the airplane or on the ground, pay attention to the ways in which they deviate from the planned skydive. Many times it is a good indication of what they will do in the air. 10) Never panic. 11) Always be prepared ahead of time for an aircraft emergency with a student. There is a very good chance that it "could" happen eventually. 12) Don't ever think we can't do it as good as boys do. 13) Have fun and think about what an honor you hold to be able to take someone out on their first skydive or their graduation dive into the skydiving community. Because it truly is a gift. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #21 March 15, 2006 QuoteHot Female AFF Instructor here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #22 March 15, 2006 QuoteBe prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it.When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. First off, slapping the hand holding onto the PC could result in the PC or bridal becoming entangled with the instructor. Throwing the PC is a good thing to go over until the student understands that "pulling" is not enough, this is why we took out the word "pull" in all of our training material at the DZ I work at and why I never use the word "pull" when training students. Seems like a small thing, but the word “pull” might instill something in their heads without the knowledge that the term comes from the ripcord days and semantically does not apply today. Early on I experienced this situation more often than I wanted, and in attempts to minimize this occurrence I tried the following: 1) Changed the words I was using in training from “pull” to “throw” 2) Explained why holding the PC will not deploy the main 3) On a creeper had them actually throw a dummy PC several times 4) On one of the practice throws had them hold the PC in their hand and asked how I was going to get them to get go of it. The common response was “Shake me?” A trick I learned from an old old OLD timer instructor was to punch them in the ribs and they would let go of the PC right away, so on the ground during the practice throw session I told them that this was what I would do, punch them as hard as I could right in the ribs. Although I have never actually punched a student to get them to let go of the PC just telling them during this portion of the training was sufficient enough to get students to throw the PC and not hold onto it. This training takes 5 minutes or less and since I started utilizing this training technique not a single student – not one has held onto the PC since. “When they still won't let go, pull the main pin” This is a very bad idea for the following reasons: 1) I have seen a video where the student held on to the PC and thinking a Total Mal had occurred deployed the reserve immediately, had the instructor reached over and pulled the main pin a two out situation would have occurred. Unbelievably the student landed the reserve with the PC tucked away beneath the Jumpsuit! 2) There is a chance the bridal or lines could snag on the instructor. 3) There is a chance the bridal could take a wrap around the student’s wrist or around the PC creating a knot (I have seen this) and could result in a nasty Horseshoe. Students will hold on to PC’s, it is just a fact of this business we are in and the best way I have found to substantially reduce this situation is to ground train specifically on the importance of a good clean throw, keeping the palm skyward to avoid a bridal entanglement while maintaining a good body position. I have been in a few hairy situations and have seen videos much worse than what I have experienced, it is definitely worth the five extra minutes of ground training . A few extra minutes on the ground could save a bad situation in the air. I am looking forward to input from other AFF Instructors concerning this issue.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #23 March 16, 2006 Right on, good comments AFF I. Yep, I had the same argument with another AFF I about the student holding the PC. After encountering this phenomenon of students not wanting to let go of their pilot chute, I was baffled. I remember the first time a student did that to me on main side. I was like why in the heck would they hold on to that thing? And after seeing another instructor on video turn and track after thinking the student let go ... looked back ... and the horror! I heard one of our AFF Is use the comparison of "Throw that thing like it is on fire." Those are the words use now to tell a student what I want them to do after they initiate their pull procedures. I think it generally gets the point across. A threat to punch them in the ribs? Hmmm. I like it, especially if it works. But ... we cannot actually physically strike our students. I've seen it done and heard it done but not good for video ... no no. I've seen AFF-Is smack students in the head, karate chop their legs to get them to straighten them, etc. Although I have learned to get a little more tough than I used to be, that is just not my style. I do agree that fear does work though as a motivator. My AFF I scared the shit out of me and it worked. Anyhow, going on a tangeant here ... my main point was that I had the same argument with an AFF I evaluator about a student not letting go of the PC. He said pull the pin out. I said what about a horseshoe if the bridle gets wrapped around their hand? I can see it happening. He said, if you pull the pin, they are going to let go of the pilot chute guaranteed and the parachute is going to open. I thought about it and it made sense. I have not had to use that technique yet, hopefully won't have to. Just a last ditch effort idea I guess. I like the threat thing. Maybe I will have to use that one sometime. Especially if it is a really big guy Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #24 March 16, 2006 Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #25 March 16, 2006 The rib punch is not a threat; think of it as informing your student as to what the safest (for you) and most expedient solution is if they hold the PC. Educate them about the dangers and how making this mistake can be very costly as well as being a huge concern for instructors. Tumbling and spinning (freefall) situations are easily handled if I stay ultra close and handle my student with an "I own them" mentality while I am smiling at them telling them to relax, as long as remain in control and don’t over amp its cool. In the beginning being over aggressive when making a save has been counterproductive as compared to being where I am supposed to be and being in control of myself. Having had great mentors concerning how to handle situations helped me a lot in the real world and really helped me to get in control along with practice. Will still go up with another instructor and practice assisted roll overs and spin stops from time to time especially at the beginning of the season. Some of the hairiest and scariest videos and personal experiences have been of students holding onto the PC with the bridal bouncing around wildly, there is so much that can go wrong. As an instructor I train for every situation I can think of and having a poorly thrown PC to me is one of the areas I think about often. Spidey sense is always tingling at deployment time. When ground training I don’t use the word “Pull”, its not pull time its deployment time… Most importantly don’t overlook the most important factor of my reply to your post is the additional training for PC throwing. 5 minutes or less (more if necessary) doing practice throws on a creeper has provided unbelievably productive results. With a mirror in front of the creeper for observation of good body position, proper technique in throwing to avoid an entanglement and having them shout “throw” when they toss that PC is a great reinforcement. Luckily I was able to find some really good ground training mentors who assisted in my development but despite their experience and my respect for them not everything they professed sounded to me like a good idea at the time but most of it made some sort of sense. Good instructors go the extra mile; mediocre instructors make the most jumps… Personally, I am not there to make the most jumps, I am there to properly train people how to do something insanely dangerous and unforgiving of mistakes or improper training and practices. One last comment in this long post – having a preplanned course of action is highly recommended for high speed situations Although I do not believe that actually hitting another human being is “right”; my preplanned course for a PC being held (too long) is currently to follow through with the rib punch because I have been exposed to video that illustrated its effectiveness and the instructor who taught me this solution was very adept in his understanding of all the things that could go with this situation not to mention his 30 years of experience. Make it a great day!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
bodypilot1 0 #19 March 4, 2006 Quote You still have that Z1 fullface? It was my Factory Diver. Z1's weren't made then.... QuoteBTW, you guys did your best. As every AFF I should do on every jump with a student! QuoteI just sucked! Come on, you know you only sucked once on your L3. And look at ya now Bro. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #20 March 15, 2006 Female AFF Instructor here ... Been doing AFF since 2002. Best words of advice either learned from other very good instructors or my own experience: 1) DRESS FOR SUCCESS. Watch those really heavy people (and watch the really light ones too). 2) Know your limits and don't let others convince you of what they are. 3) Be prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it. . When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. 4) If you are by yourself on say a solo turn dive and have to stop a turn from the reserve side near or at pull time, if a student won't open their parachute and you are unable to dump them for whatever reason, remember the reserve handle is on your side. You can always pull that. 5) Communicate with your students. When they check in with you, even though you may be working your butt off, make eye contact with them and smile. Smiling is the biggest relax signal of all. 6) If a student takes you on a ride or nearly gives you a heart attack, high five them after they land and start the debrief off with something positive. 7) Find another AFF Instructor who you like and trust and go to them with your questions. You should have many. 8) Relax but not to the point that you are complacent. 9) When a student goes through and reviews the skydive in the airplane or on the ground, pay attention to the ways in which they deviate from the planned skydive. Many times it is a good indication of what they will do in the air. 10) Never panic. 11) Always be prepared ahead of time for an aircraft emergency with a student. There is a very good chance that it "could" happen eventually. 12) Don't ever think we can't do it as good as boys do. 13) Have fun and think about what an honor you hold to be able to take someone out on their first skydive or their graduation dive into the skydiving community. Because it truly is a gift. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #21 March 15, 2006 QuoteHot Female AFF Instructor here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #22 March 15, 2006 QuoteBe prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it.When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. First off, slapping the hand holding onto the PC could result in the PC or bridal becoming entangled with the instructor. Throwing the PC is a good thing to go over until the student understands that "pulling" is not enough, this is why we took out the word "pull" in all of our training material at the DZ I work at and why I never use the word "pull" when training students. Seems like a small thing, but the word “pull” might instill something in their heads without the knowledge that the term comes from the ripcord days and semantically does not apply today. Early on I experienced this situation more often than I wanted, and in attempts to minimize this occurrence I tried the following: 1) Changed the words I was using in training from “pull” to “throw” 2) Explained why holding the PC will not deploy the main 3) On a creeper had them actually throw a dummy PC several times 4) On one of the practice throws had them hold the PC in their hand and asked how I was going to get them to get go of it. The common response was “Shake me?” A trick I learned from an old old OLD timer instructor was to punch them in the ribs and they would let go of the PC right away, so on the ground during the practice throw session I told them that this was what I would do, punch them as hard as I could right in the ribs. Although I have never actually punched a student to get them to let go of the PC just telling them during this portion of the training was sufficient enough to get students to throw the PC and not hold onto it. This training takes 5 minutes or less and since I started utilizing this training technique not a single student – not one has held onto the PC since. “When they still won't let go, pull the main pin” This is a very bad idea for the following reasons: 1) I have seen a video where the student held on to the PC and thinking a Total Mal had occurred deployed the reserve immediately, had the instructor reached over and pulled the main pin a two out situation would have occurred. Unbelievably the student landed the reserve with the PC tucked away beneath the Jumpsuit! 2) There is a chance the bridal or lines could snag on the instructor. 3) There is a chance the bridal could take a wrap around the student’s wrist or around the PC creating a knot (I have seen this) and could result in a nasty Horseshoe. Students will hold on to PC’s, it is just a fact of this business we are in and the best way I have found to substantially reduce this situation is to ground train specifically on the importance of a good clean throw, keeping the palm skyward to avoid a bridal entanglement while maintaining a good body position. I have been in a few hairy situations and have seen videos much worse than what I have experienced, it is definitely worth the five extra minutes of ground training . A few extra minutes on the ground could save a bad situation in the air. I am looking forward to input from other AFF Instructors concerning this issue.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #23 March 16, 2006 Right on, good comments AFF I. Yep, I had the same argument with another AFF I about the student holding the PC. After encountering this phenomenon of students not wanting to let go of their pilot chute, I was baffled. I remember the first time a student did that to me on main side. I was like why in the heck would they hold on to that thing? And after seeing another instructor on video turn and track after thinking the student let go ... looked back ... and the horror! I heard one of our AFF Is use the comparison of "Throw that thing like it is on fire." Those are the words use now to tell a student what I want them to do after they initiate their pull procedures. I think it generally gets the point across. A threat to punch them in the ribs? Hmmm. I like it, especially if it works. But ... we cannot actually physically strike our students. I've seen it done and heard it done but not good for video ... no no. I've seen AFF-Is smack students in the head, karate chop their legs to get them to straighten them, etc. Although I have learned to get a little more tough than I used to be, that is just not my style. I do agree that fear does work though as a motivator. My AFF I scared the shit out of me and it worked. Anyhow, going on a tangeant here ... my main point was that I had the same argument with an AFF I evaluator about a student not letting go of the PC. He said pull the pin out. I said what about a horseshoe if the bridle gets wrapped around their hand? I can see it happening. He said, if you pull the pin, they are going to let go of the pilot chute guaranteed and the parachute is going to open. I thought about it and it made sense. I have not had to use that technique yet, hopefully won't have to. Just a last ditch effort idea I guess. I like the threat thing. Maybe I will have to use that one sometime. Especially if it is a really big guy Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #24 March 16, 2006 Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #25 March 16, 2006 The rib punch is not a threat; think of it as informing your student as to what the safest (for you) and most expedient solution is if they hold the PC. Educate them about the dangers and how making this mistake can be very costly as well as being a huge concern for instructors. Tumbling and spinning (freefall) situations are easily handled if I stay ultra close and handle my student with an "I own them" mentality while I am smiling at them telling them to relax, as long as remain in control and don’t over amp its cool. In the beginning being over aggressive when making a save has been counterproductive as compared to being where I am supposed to be and being in control of myself. Having had great mentors concerning how to handle situations helped me a lot in the real world and really helped me to get in control along with practice. Will still go up with another instructor and practice assisted roll overs and spin stops from time to time especially at the beginning of the season. Some of the hairiest and scariest videos and personal experiences have been of students holding onto the PC with the bridal bouncing around wildly, there is so much that can go wrong. As an instructor I train for every situation I can think of and having a poorly thrown PC to me is one of the areas I think about often. Spidey sense is always tingling at deployment time. When ground training I don’t use the word “Pull”, its not pull time its deployment time… Most importantly don’t overlook the most important factor of my reply to your post is the additional training for PC throwing. 5 minutes or less (more if necessary) doing practice throws on a creeper has provided unbelievably productive results. With a mirror in front of the creeper for observation of good body position, proper technique in throwing to avoid an entanglement and having them shout “throw” when they toss that PC is a great reinforcement. Luckily I was able to find some really good ground training mentors who assisted in my development but despite their experience and my respect for them not everything they professed sounded to me like a good idea at the time but most of it made some sort of sense. Good instructors go the extra mile; mediocre instructors make the most jumps… Personally, I am not there to make the most jumps, I am there to properly train people how to do something insanely dangerous and unforgiving of mistakes or improper training and practices. One last comment in this long post – having a preplanned course of action is highly recommended for high speed situations Although I do not believe that actually hitting another human being is “right”; my preplanned course for a PC being held (too long) is currently to follow through with the rib punch because I have been exposed to video that illustrated its effectiveness and the instructor who taught me this solution was very adept in his understanding of all the things that could go with this situation not to mention his 30 years of experience. Make it a great day!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AFFI 0 #22 March 15, 2006 QuoteBe prepared for the student to not let go of the PC handle. Don't leave their side if you are on main side until you physically see them let go of it.When they won't let go of it smack them on the hand. When they still won't let go, pull the main pin. First off, slapping the hand holding onto the PC could result in the PC or bridal becoming entangled with the instructor. Throwing the PC is a good thing to go over until the student understands that "pulling" is not enough, this is why we took out the word "pull" in all of our training material at the DZ I work at and why I never use the word "pull" when training students. Seems like a small thing, but the word “pull” might instill something in their heads without the knowledge that the term comes from the ripcord days and semantically does not apply today. Early on I experienced this situation more often than I wanted, and in attempts to minimize this occurrence I tried the following: 1) Changed the words I was using in training from “pull” to “throw” 2) Explained why holding the PC will not deploy the main 3) On a creeper had them actually throw a dummy PC several times 4) On one of the practice throws had them hold the PC in their hand and asked how I was going to get them to get go of it. The common response was “Shake me?” A trick I learned from an old old OLD timer instructor was to punch them in the ribs and they would let go of the PC right away, so on the ground during the practice throw session I told them that this was what I would do, punch them as hard as I could right in the ribs. Although I have never actually punched a student to get them to let go of the PC just telling them during this portion of the training was sufficient enough to get students to throw the PC and not hold onto it. This training takes 5 minutes or less and since I started utilizing this training technique not a single student – not one has held onto the PC since. “When they still won't let go, pull the main pin” This is a very bad idea for the following reasons: 1) I have seen a video where the student held on to the PC and thinking a Total Mal had occurred deployed the reserve immediately, had the instructor reached over and pulled the main pin a two out situation would have occurred. Unbelievably the student landed the reserve with the PC tucked away beneath the Jumpsuit! 2) There is a chance the bridal or lines could snag on the instructor. 3) There is a chance the bridal could take a wrap around the student’s wrist or around the PC creating a knot (I have seen this) and could result in a nasty Horseshoe. Students will hold on to PC’s, it is just a fact of this business we are in and the best way I have found to substantially reduce this situation is to ground train specifically on the importance of a good clean throw, keeping the palm skyward to avoid a bridal entanglement while maintaining a good body position. I have been in a few hairy situations and have seen videos much worse than what I have experienced, it is definitely worth the five extra minutes of ground training . A few extra minutes on the ground could save a bad situation in the air. I am looking forward to input from other AFF Instructors concerning this issue.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #23 March 16, 2006 Right on, good comments AFF I. Yep, I had the same argument with another AFF I about the student holding the PC. After encountering this phenomenon of students not wanting to let go of their pilot chute, I was baffled. I remember the first time a student did that to me on main side. I was like why in the heck would they hold on to that thing? And after seeing another instructor on video turn and track after thinking the student let go ... looked back ... and the horror! I heard one of our AFF Is use the comparison of "Throw that thing like it is on fire." Those are the words use now to tell a student what I want them to do after they initiate their pull procedures. I think it generally gets the point across. A threat to punch them in the ribs? Hmmm. I like it, especially if it works. But ... we cannot actually physically strike our students. I've seen it done and heard it done but not good for video ... no no. I've seen AFF-Is smack students in the head, karate chop their legs to get them to straighten them, etc. Although I have learned to get a little more tough than I used to be, that is just not my style. I do agree that fear does work though as a motivator. My AFF I scared the shit out of me and it worked. Anyhow, going on a tangeant here ... my main point was that I had the same argument with an AFF I evaluator about a student not letting go of the PC. He said pull the pin out. I said what about a horseshoe if the bridle gets wrapped around their hand? I can see it happening. He said, if you pull the pin, they are going to let go of the pilot chute guaranteed and the parachute is going to open. I thought about it and it made sense. I have not had to use that technique yet, hopefully won't have to. Just a last ditch effort idea I guess. I like the threat thing. Maybe I will have to use that one sometime. Especially if it is a really big guy Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #24 March 16, 2006 Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #25 March 16, 2006 The rib punch is not a threat; think of it as informing your student as to what the safest (for you) and most expedient solution is if they hold the PC. Educate them about the dangers and how making this mistake can be very costly as well as being a huge concern for instructors. Tumbling and spinning (freefall) situations are easily handled if I stay ultra close and handle my student with an "I own them" mentality while I am smiling at them telling them to relax, as long as remain in control and don’t over amp its cool. In the beginning being over aggressive when making a save has been counterproductive as compared to being where I am supposed to be and being in control of myself. Having had great mentors concerning how to handle situations helped me a lot in the real world and really helped me to get in control along with practice. Will still go up with another instructor and practice assisted roll overs and spin stops from time to time especially at the beginning of the season. Some of the hairiest and scariest videos and personal experiences have been of students holding onto the PC with the bridal bouncing around wildly, there is so much that can go wrong. As an instructor I train for every situation I can think of and having a poorly thrown PC to me is one of the areas I think about often. Spidey sense is always tingling at deployment time. When ground training I don’t use the word “Pull”, its not pull time its deployment time… Most importantly don’t overlook the most important factor of my reply to your post is the additional training for PC throwing. 5 minutes or less (more if necessary) doing practice throws on a creeper has provided unbelievably productive results. With a mirror in front of the creeper for observation of good body position, proper technique in throwing to avoid an entanglement and having them shout “throw” when they toss that PC is a great reinforcement. Luckily I was able to find some really good ground training mentors who assisted in my development but despite their experience and my respect for them not everything they professed sounded to me like a good idea at the time but most of it made some sort of sense. Good instructors go the extra mile; mediocre instructors make the most jumps… Personally, I am not there to make the most jumps, I am there to properly train people how to do something insanely dangerous and unforgiving of mistakes or improper training and practices. One last comment in this long post – having a preplanned course of action is highly recommended for high speed situations Although I do not believe that actually hitting another human being is “right”; my preplanned course for a PC being held (too long) is currently to follow through with the rib punch because I have been exposed to video that illustrated its effectiveness and the instructor who taught me this solution was very adept in his understanding of all the things that could go with this situation not to mention his 30 years of experience. Make it a great day!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
