Deliberately inducing instability in an AFF student

[Andy9o8 0]

In the S & T forum, there's a thread in which one of the posters (not the original one), a 4-jump student, gets pretty upset at the thought that an AFFI might deliberately burble a student without advance notice as an instability/recovery drill.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2069849#2069849

So it raises a question for you AFFIs out there: Do you ever deliberately induce instability in an AFF student, without warning, as a teaching device? And even if you don't, how do you feel about the practice?

[livendive 8]

That thread reminds me of why I don't usually venture into that forum. I'm not posting to it again just because it's only Monday and I've already had my fill of vilification for the week. Anyhow, inducing instability (occasionally without warning, but usually with a joking warning) is pretty much a part of my graduation jump dive flow. It's usually just a little shove during the exit, but I have once or twice done a quick "underpass" while we were still high, just to get them rocking and rolling a little. We're talking about a fast move, porpoising while simultaneously spinning to keep facing them, while at altitude...not letting them fall on me or anything like that, and not anywhere near pull time. I'd say it's less like stealing their air than borrowing their air for maybe a quarter or half second.

The reason why? I'm about to let them jump either a) by themself, when they'll do god knows what, or b) with a coach who I may or may not know, and who may very easily push/burble them unintentionally. I want to know that they can handle such common occurences before they leave my care.

If someone here wants to explain to me that I'm doing a bad thing and why, feel free. My ears and mind are open. I'm not as experienced as many here, and I've been doing AFF for less than 2 years, but I have trained a few students now by each of the different methods, and I feel I do pretty well by them.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[GravityGirl 0]

Instability is what level 6 is all about. WTF would you burble a student on Level 4? That doesn't instill confidence that just freaks the student out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[altichick 0]

Read the other post

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[riggerrob 558]

Two separate issues.
The original posting - on S&T - referred to a desperate move by an instructor who was trying to catch an unstable student, early in the learning process (before graduating AFF).

The second issue is about "When do we tell students to deliberately go unstable."

Canadian instructors keep it pretty boring until students have completed all 5 Levels of PFF. Then our students do two or three consolidation dives before taking their Solo Certificate Exam.
One of those consolidation dives includes a deliberately unstable exit. We usually tell them to "ride the slide" with their back to the relative wind, in something resembling a sit-fly position. Few of them hold the sit for more than three seconds, but the key teaching point is that they prove that they can right themselves from an unstable exit. This "ride the slide" exercise is a major confidence-builder before they do hop-and-pops from 3,500 feet.

[jimoke 0]

plan the dive, dive the plan.
intentionally inducing instability on a cat 3 is not the way to go.
scaring the shit out of a student is not a good practice. it has nothing to do with the dive flow, which is about stable solo freefall.
if an instructor slides under a student by accident....so be it, shit happens.
but to do it intentionally without prior discusion is verging on assanine.
as any AFF I knows shit can go wrong and it can go way wrong fast.
I wouldn't want that student on my head.
just my opinion
stay safe,
Jimoke

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[Icon134 0]

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Anyhow, inducing instability (occasionally without warning, but usually with a joking warning)

I was fruit looped on my level 7... I was aware that it might/was likely to happen and I didn't have a problem w/my AFF-I doing it.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Erroll 49]

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intentionally inducing instability on a cat 3 is not the way to go.

Dave has indicated more than once that the few times he has done this, the student was doing his qualification dive

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plan the dive, dive the plan.

During my last AFF level before hop&pop, I had to do what we called the 'full series'. This was a dive exit, a backloop, 360 left, 360 right and another backloop.

I was having a good dive and finished my full series by about 9 grand. My instructor gave me a thumbs up, glanced at his alti and then immediately motioned me to 'follow' him. He went into a headdown, something which I had never done before. I followed him, copying everything he did, until my designated wave-off altitude at which point I waved off and dumped.

When I landed he was waiting for me, gave me a high five and congratulated me on a great dive. At the debrief I was very flattered when he told me that I was one of the very few students he had ever done this with. He said that having worked with me for several jumps and after that good full series, he was confident that I would cope. That did an enormous amount for my confidence and belief in myself.

I fully subscribe to the 'plan the dive, dive the plan' doctrine, but I was very pleased that I didn't end up doing nothing but fall for 4000 feet on that jump!

[altichick 0]

If I'm working with a student for a while and get to know them I can usually tell if they'll respond well to a fun surprise!! I don't do anytyhing on AFF dives but a lot of the time we'll do something fun on their A license dive, a tube exit or making it a 'surprise' 4 way (have 2 other AFFI join us) or just a beer and video guy waiting in the landing area... it's a nice way to make then feel welcome!!

It really depends on the student - some just want to do the dive and get it over with - for others it's a big deal and it's nice to make it special for them! I still remember the first time I got fruit looped

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I agree with Dave and Icon, skydiving is dangerous and tends to get more dangerous the more jumps we have. I wish my instructor had done this to me. I didnt go un-stable until jump 25. Even my "simulated instability" was stable. I left the plane unstable at such a late jump number for the first time that it scared the shit out of me, and I didnt finish turning the points we were assigned (think I missed the last half of the dive flow)

If a person trusts their instructor and thats what the instructor chooses to do then who are we to say it is wrong?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Sky15 0]

For years in our program, my husband of many thousands of jumps insisted that if a student somehow managed to get to Level 7 without ever going unstable (which is rare, since Level 6 is the instability skydive, but occasionally they can do perfect backloops) that on diving exit he would go out behind them and flip them over by the feet.

Made sense to me, before I sign someone off I want them to know for themselves and prove to me they can regain stability.

[Icon134 0]

I had the same AFF I for several of my jumps... Stewart knew what I was likely to do... and like I said I was sort of expecting it.

Although he told me he was going to do a rodeo...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[lug 4]

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Do you ever deliberately induce instability in an AFF student, without warning, as a teaching device?

No never. However this does not mean I do not teach stability recovery. Intentional instability is performed by the student only during the AFF level 6 and 7 with out assistance. I do have students who become unstable by them selves on level 5 doing their first unassisted exits.

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And even if you don't, how do you feel about the practice?

Again no, the students can get them selves unstable all by there lonesome so there is no need.

I have read on this thread, that there are some instructors on level 7 who induce instability during the skydive, and I disagree with this practice. As an instructor on level 7’s I am only an observer that’s there just in case. The student on the other hand has to demonstrate that they can skydive with out assistance proving that they can self jumpmaster. There are seven things my attention is on; gear up, spotting, exit, stability recovery maneuvers, Alt awareness, heading awareness and control, on time opening, and canopy control. If I have to assist them in the air or by radio during canopy flight they fail.

Memento Mori

[apoil 0]

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So it raises a question for you AFFIs out there: Do you ever deliberately induce instability in an AFF student, without warning, as a teaching device? And even if you don't, how do you feel about the practice?

I have done it very few times and ONLY with students whose entire training I had been involved with. These students were so exceptionally comfortable in the air that they had NEVER been unstable at any moment during their entire progression. Not even during their loops and rolls.

Since instability recovery is a criteria for being approved to solo jumpmaster, yes, I have induced instability, at a high enough altitude, knowing that the student will have no difficulty recovering, and knowing that I could fix it if they didn't.

It is important that students demonstrate this ability. The vast majority of students have no trouble making themselves unstable at some point on their release dives.

I respect the "dive the plan" argument. It is important for group relative work. And there is a risk of not re-inforcing that through this behavior. That's why I have only done it in the rarest of circumstances. For a student at that level, I want to see them respond to something unexpected in the air (it happens) before I sign them off to solo.

[AFFI 0]

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I have done it very few times and ONLY with students whose entire training I had been involved with. These students were so exceptionally comfortable in the air that they had NEVER been unstable at any moment during their entire progression. Not even during their loops and rolls.

Since instability recovery is a criteria for being approved to solo jumpmaster, yes, I have induced instability, at a high enough altitude, knowing that the student will have no difficulty recovering, and knowing that I could fix it if they didn't.

It is important that students demonstrate this ability. The vast majority of students have no trouble making themselves unstable at some point on their release dives.

I respect the "dive the plan" argument. It is important for group relative work. And there is a risk of not re-inforcing that through this behavior. That's why I have only done it in the rarest of circumstances. For a student at that level, I want to see them respond to something unexpected in the air (it happens) before I sign them off to solo.

Well said, i agree totally.

dive the plan? How often does this happen, for things to go exactly as planned? Shouldent we also teach them to expect the unexpected at some level?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[metalslug 31]

I'm slightly off topic here, but your post makes some unusual claims.

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During my last AFF level before hop&pop, I had to do what we called the 'full series'. This was a dive exit, a backloop, 360 left, 360 right and another backloop.

The modern MOPS has a different description of a full series.
Did you do the older BSR's ? Was it very different back then?

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I was having a good dive and finished my full series by about 9 grand.

Assuming you exited at 11k, completing a modern full series by 9k is very impressive stuff for a student. I could probably do it now but I think it would be a very unusual achievement for a student.

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He went into a headdown, something which I had never done before. I followed him, copying everything he did...

Just to clarify; Were you stable head-down on an AFF dive?
Rob Kruger only managed head-down after several hundred skydives.
Am I not understanding your description of events or were you just seriously talented?

[Erroll 49]

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I'm slightly off topic here, but your post makes some unusual claims.......

Am I not understanding your description of events or were you just seriously talented?

You are not understanding my description of events.



I did my AFF course after getting stuck at the 10 second delay on the S/L progression. I had already done about 25 jumps by the time I started AFF. I was clearly not very talented.

I started my AFF (Levels one & two) at Carletonville and finished it at the Mmabatho boogie in December of '91. We jumped from Casas owned by the (then) Bophutatswana Air Force and we regularly got between 12 and 14 grand.

No, I was not very stable in the headdown or any of the other moves I 'copied'. (Incidentally, at that time ('91) I had not even heard of 'freeflying'. To me 'headdown' still means a very steep, very fast, arms-by-the-side-&-legs-straight dive.)

The point of my post was not my 'talent' or lack thereof. The point was that Lob, my instructor, was confident enough in my ability to regain stability and maintain awareness to let me try new stuff on the fly (pun intended), and to deviate from the 'plan', rather than waste 4000 feet of freefall time.

[Scoop 0]

I've been pushed out of the aircraft plenty of times. No problem for me, but I did spend time up the wind tunnel. The most important thing I learnt in tunnel (after banging into walls) is to just arch if loose stability.