Tunnel and AFF

[rehmwa 2]

I saw this on the Tunnel board. Here's a scenario:

A student wants to do AFF. He's got a couple hours in the tunnel and you know it. He been trained to fly mantis (so my assumption is if he's flying mantis, he's stable enough in his tunnel training or they wouldn't have taken him there).

Do you let him fly mantis if that's what he's already trained in? Or do you try to back him up to the "big arch"?

Of course, I'd like to see his tunnel video, but either way....

The example in the other board "says" he was chewed out and retrained. I don't think I agree with that - changing the muscle memory when the big learning points should be equipment control and altitude awareness would be a source of extra issues, not resolution. Especially if the stability looked good during the dive.

But it certainly does depend on how in control he was in freefall.

I'm not an instructor, but I'm interested in the judgment of I's on this one....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Shark 0]

Sure, but they must meet the Performance Objectives of each category/level.
Arching is still essential. I'd still require they complete the FJC.

Good hypothetical, though.

[livendive 8]

If he's got a couple hours in the tunnel of mostly mantis, and is reasonably adept at it, I'd probably let him stick with that. If he just switched to mantis for the last 15 minutes or something, I'd probably have him to fly a traditional arch.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mark 102]

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Do you let him fly mantis if that's what he's already trained in?

I was going to answer "Of course!" until I thought about the exit. When you do an unlinked exit, Bill, what is your body position when you leave the aircraft? Does it matter if you're tail (head-up hop-n-pop position) vs. inside center/diving?

I ask because I remember Anne when she came back from the tunnel a couple years ago. She had no problem at terminal, but was unstable on exit because she started freefall in mantis (and because she, like most students, had trouble with lower airspeed and non-vertical relative wind).

So it's not a slam-dunk, though my strong preference would be to let my student fly mantis.

Mark

[YISkyDive 0]

Hey guys-

I put this out there in the tunnel forum- So i'll just explain how it was so you guys can make the discussion for what its worth based on what happened.

I did a 7 Level program.

Three Tandems

4 AFF

IAF one was supposed to be my one and only skydive. Somehow I got hooked. Ops.

IAF two was a zero instructor input on turns and alitutde and pull.

IAF three was Intructor started turn and I was allowed to use legs and arms to stop the turn- and if the turn persisted longer than 5 seconds I had to check my alti. This one was my first reminder to check alitutde on my skydives. I checked twice and went a little long on m third.

Then where the AFFs- First AFF was a solid boxman. But by my 7th I was reverting to the mantis. I was not thinking about it one bit- but that is what I was doing. I only have video of my first AFF. But on the 7th I was told that my fall rate was picking and by flying mantis my turns seemed rushed.

Ultimetly the big problem with the mantis (or mantis like) position was that I was mixing a big arch taugh in the FJC with flying my turns with arm input like mantis- causing a fairly fast fall rate.

On my coach jumps and 'fun' (coached to death though haha) with my dad people where trying me to get either one or the other postion set in stone.

Exiting an aircraft took me forever to learn. I dont know if that was mantisplaying a part or not but it was horrible. I did 25 hop and pops out of a K.Air in a week to learn hown to exit a plane.

In AFF I always had "arch on exit" in log book.

I hope this makes it clearer on what was up.

Oh- I also did do a complete and to the letter FJC. There was zero discussion or movement on the idea that since I may know how to freefall that I can still do this. None ever talked about shortening anything, either.

Also my tunnel time went from being between either 11 too 13 (starting time.. to ending my last time in the tunnel at 16) ( i dont remeber anymore.. I can look up the VHS tapes for a date code haha)

I did 45minutes in the piegon forge tunnel and than every year after that I would do fifteen minutes to a half hour of 'flying' time (not total block time) till I was sixteen.

I counted my total flying time to be just over 2hrs30min before I started skydiving. This was not total block time I partook in.


My brother did a tandem this year for his 18th birthday. He doesnt want to skydive but he has the same amount of time. But on his video he has clearly the muscle memory of mantis. I mean slam. If I can find his DVD ill take a screen shot and post it.


I dont know how many people have gone through AFF with +30 min tunnel time. But in the 'tight' SkyVentureOrelando tunnel- thats what they taught us to fly on my first visit of a block time and thats what I've stuck with ever since.

I hope this clears up 'what chewed out' ment. It didnt mean I got held back, or anything.. I was just told that its a more difficult fly and that my turns and stuff looked rush from the input. On jump 16 I did a 13 point 2 way with a floater exit that was Round- Left compressed- right compressed- round - 360 - top of the page. We did it 3 times and I broke off at 5,5. I was told that I was using exsessive leg input and I had slow down. On another jump, with I was told that I shouldnt be flying my hands where they where- but this person did not knwo my tunnel time background.

Thats what chewed out refered too- other than on my first skydive which I was back sliding on I never got a body adjustment signal in free fall. Its just the discussions afterwards yeilded this that that this.



I hope this helps.

Dave

[tdog 0]

Me thinks... No matter how hard you work on "retraining" the student, he or she is going to "land" in their neutral position they learned in the tunnel once they enter the air, especially if they have hours in the tunnel...

I know I learned mantis on the mat outside the tunnel, and when I went in the tunnel I first "hit" the familiar boxman... It took a little time to get used to it and transition to something else.

So I imagine the opposite would be true... Take a fish who knows how to swim one way - tell him to do it another way, and he probably won't, at least at first.

[aironscott 3]

I'll go a step farther. Dave's absolutely correct in saying that go with what they know. (I think that's what you mean). And especially if they are being taught proper belly free fall position (mantis). If your student already knows and has performed to that level why would you want to regress them to a boxman position?
Its a little like training students to pull a ripcord spring loaded pilot chute when you know good and well that their first jump off of student status will be with a throw out. Why not teach them the proper course to begin with?
Thoughts Todak?
Aaron

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[livendive 8]

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I'll go a step farther. Dave's absolutely correct in saying that go with what they know. (I think that's what you mean). And especially if they are being taught proper belly free fall position (mantis). If your student already knows and has performed to that level why would you want to regress them to a boxman position?
Its a little like training students to pull a ripcord spring loaded pilot chute when you know good and well that their first jump off of student status will be with a throw out. Why not teach them the proper course to begin with?
Thoughts Todak?
Aaron

Pretty much. The thing is in such a situation the student already has a decent handle on flying skills, at least to the extent we expect of students. So the total course of training can focus a little more on the other aspects of skydiving that couldn't be covered in a tunnel. Exit, altitude awareness, situational awareness, tracking, rapid fall-rate changes, gear, EPs, canopy control, etc. The only way the tunnel time is of benefit to them is if a) they avoid failures for flying skills and b) they get additional knowledge in the time we would have otherwise been teaching them to fly. Like I said, as long as they were adept at mantis, I'd want them to stick with that, but if they were new to it and adept at boxman, I'd go with that. The purpose would simply be to let them fly in the manner that will take the least effort from them, so more of their attention can be on those other things. Done properly, when this student gets off of student status they should have received the same amount of your or my time, but some of that time should have been spent advancing their other skills to match the (relatively) advanced flying skills they developed in the tunnel. If they're no better than a non-tunnel student the day we let them off of AFF, what was the purpose of all the money and time they spent in the tunnel?

Bottom line - You're right. I wouldn't force a student to go back to boxman if they've already learned to fly mantis. That'd just be silly. I'd rather build on what they've got than put them back at ground-zero and build from there.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Shark 0]

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So the total course of training can focus a little more on the other aspects of skydiving that couldn't be covered in a tunnel. Exit, altitude awareness, situational awareness, tracking, rapid fall-rate changes, gear, EPs, canopy control, etc.

= ISP

[mark 102]

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Its a little like training students to pull a ripcord spring loaded pilot chute when you know good and well that their first jump off of student status will be with a throw out. Why not teach them the proper course to begin with?

If we could just figure out which FJC student was going to make a first jump off of student status!

At the tunnel last year, I asked Chromy what he teaches his non-tunnel AFF students. He said, "Boxman."

Mantis is intended to be neutrally stable, like a Pitts, good for maneuverability. Deep arch is better for positive stability, like Cessna 172/Piper Warrior. Which airplane would be better for a student pilot to learn in?

Mark

[rehmwa 2]

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When you do an unlinked exit, Bill, what is your body position when you leave the aircraft?

I ask because I remember Anne was unstable on exit because she started freefall in mantis

What do I do? I leave in a mantis and flying right away. regardless of which slot I'm in. Which you know. Also, if the exit is super crowded, Mantis is also safer to avoid shoulders getting banged up. But neither has nothing to do with student training.

As for a student, that's an excellent point that sub-terminal mantis is not natural for someone tunnel trained.

Edit: I see most saying that if a student is tunnel trained mantis, then sticking with it is a great opportunity. non-tunnel? boxman of course. I think that for a student, even if tunnel trained in mantis, the 'exit' is such a completely different thing, that it shouldn't be a 'step back' to teach them a big boxlike arch on "GO!!" they'd leave as trained in a box, then likely move into mantis as they find that freefall feeling that they are more comfortable with. Did you ask Anne to exit in a boxman? I don't think the mantis was that 'burned' into her muscle memory. She would have had to consciously focus to try and strike a mantis on exit. Recent ground training on just the "exit to a box" "count it out" "check heading" "relax (likely start to automatically slide to a mantislike" ..... should have stuck (but I'm guessing, you were there, you know exactly what she was trained vs what she actually did - shes' doing fine now either way).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

Here is what *I have already done".

I let them stay in the mantis. The objective of the skydive is to be stable, not in only one position.

So if they can be stable in the mantis....they can stay in the mantis.

Now, in most of these cases I have done I was both the tunnel Instructor for them, or I knew the tunnel Instructor and we had talked.

I would be warry of anyone just walking up and saying they were good in the mantis. I would make them either, show me some tape or start in a hard arch and when I gave them permission in freefall transition to the mantis.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mdrejhon 8]

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I saw this on the Tunnel board. Here's a scenario:

A student wants to do AFF. He's got a couple hours in the tunnel and you know it. He been trained to fly mantis

The UTA siren just went off.
(Unfamiliar Terminology Alarm!)

For this windtunnel newbie, can you please describe the mantis position compared to the boxman position?

I should comment that last time (my first) I was in the wind tunnel, I flew a slightly modified boxman where my hands were moved closer together. Is that the mantis position? Also, since I want to fly boxman, is it acceptable procedure to insist to the next tunnel instructor that I fly like I skydive instead, keeping my hands apart? I want to spend an hour at Skyventure New Hampshire when it opens, and I want to get every minute's worth of it.

[rehmwa 2]

Do a search on mantis in the RW forum. Ron has a good description about writing a letter while lying on the floor. There's others. and some pics attached.

"mantis" has some range of what it looks like

If you take an hour in the tunnel, find a coach to show you and you'll find the 'mantis' that works for you.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mdrejhon 8]

I might already be flying mantis in the windtunnel -- just that I don't know the terminology. I'll go find out. (I'm a deaf guy, so I don't always get to hear the terminology when being coached)

[Ron 7]

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The UTA siren just went off.
(Unfamiliar Terminology Alarm!)

For this windtunnel newbie, can you please describe the mantis position compared to the boxman position?

Get a piece of paper and a pen....I'll wait.

Now lie on your stomach on the floor. Bend your lower legs 90 degress to the floor. (With booties...w/o they will be extended a little bit)

Its a little windy so you need to hold the paper with both hands.

Now write a letter to your Mom...You really should do this more anyway.

Notice that your hands are down and in front of your face? thats where they need to be for grips. Your arms should be up about 45 degrees and your hands in front of your chin about 8-10 inches away from your face.

And notice that you are supporting your upper body with your elbows down? That will bring your head up and let you see more, and it cups the air so you can move it better.

And your legs are level with the horizon...This allows them to be more effective.

Now finish the letter and dispatch it quick...Your Mom misses you.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Deuce 1]

For the first three levels I always try and get the students to concentrate on the Targeted Learning Objectives.

For level one it's

Pull

Pull on time

Pull on time stable.

When I have a motivated student who just isn't getting it, I try and get them to go do ten or twenty minutes down at Perris or Eloy. 10 minutes of tunnel coaching is WAY cheaper than 10 level three's.

If they are more tunnel trained when they do their Check In! they are looking over their arm. If they respond to the arch training, they Check In! looking under their arm. I could care less, so long as they are stable.

With a difficult student, the challenge is just to find a way for them.

[rehmwa 2]

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I could care less, so long as they are stable.

With a difficult student, the challenge is just to find a way for them.

My favorite response. cheers

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants