AFFI 0
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Ncrowe 0
QuoteI just tell my students to ignore anything that they read on dropzone.com. Most of the time that solves the problem of getting crappy advice.
The only reason I know the 45 degree rule makes no sense is because of this website, granted you have to sort through the crap but usually paying attention to the source of your information wether it be on here or at the DZ will go a long way. I've had instructors at at least 4 major Dz's in Florida recite the 45 degree rule to me.
"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "
Nate-
Thank you for making my point for me. What you are saying (and correct me if I am mistaken) is that because you read on this web site that 45 makes no sense, and even though your instructors in FL told you it is a good rule of thumb, you believe that the people posting that information to this website are right and your local instructors are wrong. Great idea.
The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation. It is not always applicable but let's look at it. Most skydivers can't spot unless the light is on. But their ego tells them that they know exactly where they are (So does mine). And most non-cessna experienced, turbine dz jumpers, short spot.
Now - if the uppers are honking at say 50 and you tell the next stick to wait 25 seconds, they frequently don't make it much past 10. If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation, they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some actual separation.
You don't often hear this kind of information on this web site because most people that have this knowledge are a) busy jumping (or rigging) and don't have time for this internet crap b) so disgusted from what they read on dz.com that they want no part of it
c) hate posting to dz.com cuz some dipshit with more posts than jumps will claim to be the expert on whatever subject is being discussed. or d) just figures that when you come to their dz they will be happy to help you face to face.
There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
Be safe and have fun.
Aaron
Thank you for making my point for me. What you are saying (and correct me if I am mistaken) is that because you read on this web site that 45 makes no sense, and even though your instructors in FL told you it is a good rule of thumb, you believe that the people posting that information to this website are right and your local instructors are wrong. Great idea.
The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation. It is not always applicable but let's look at it. Most skydivers can't spot unless the light is on. But their ego tells them that they know exactly where they are (So does mine). And most non-cessna experienced, turbine dz jumpers, short spot.
Now - if the uppers are honking at say 50 and you tell the next stick to wait 25 seconds, they frequently don't make it much past 10. If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation, they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some actual separation.
You don't often hear this kind of information on this web site because most people that have this knowledge are a) busy jumping (or rigging) and don't have time for this internet crap b) so disgusted from what they read on dz.com that they want no part of it
c) hate posting to dz.com cuz some dipshit with more posts than jumps will claim to be the expert on whatever subject is being discussed. or d) just figures that when you come to their dz they will be happy to help you face to face.
There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
Be safe and have fun.
Aaron
“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”
tdog 0
QuoteThere are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
I had a business teacher in college teach a whole 2 hour class where just about everything he taught was wrong, but not so wrong it was obvious... And, he used other people's books, news articles, videoed interviews, etc all as "supporting documentation".
Someone finally caught on...
The lesson was simple... We all learned it... Don't believe everything you see, hear or read, even if it comes from an instructor or teacher.
Now in skydiving I believe you have to trust your instructors with your life for your first handful of jumps. If you don't trust "that instructor", find a new one...
But once you are able to self supervise, then it is time to open your mind and read as much as you can, talk to as many people as you can, study as much as you can, and start to make opinions on your own based upon research and knowledge.
I am a strong believer in reading this site - so as long as people with any experience level don't treat it as truth, but just an open forum to discuss.
This site often gives me more questions than answers, which is good, because I go off and find answers that I can believe in.
I really like how sites like this can open people's mind to other schools of thought, right or wrong.
If I was skydiving at one DZ in a vacuum of info, I would only know what the "crowd" at that DZ believed. Sites like this, skydivingradio.com and others truly open minds...
But what I guess I am trying to say is, I don't believe what anyone says, in my face, on the net, or in a book, unless I can research it, understand it, and substantiate it with other sources.
I think we are on the same page about not taking this site as gospel... But, I see a few people posting that they discourage students from reading this site... I think that is wrong, instead, they should teach the lesson that not everything you read, are taught, or hear is true. Including, perhaps, what I just wrote.
Falko 0
QuoteThe fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation.
I disagree. Bill von Novak did some extensive research on that, please see this thread:
Why the 45 degree method does not work
QuoteIt is not always applicable but let's look at it.
Fact of the matter is, it is never applicable. This topic has been beaten to death already.
QuoteThere are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
I agree about both points
I've found the ton of crap talk to be everywhere in skydiving, it has nothing to do with the internet. The only difference between dropzone.com and the Bonfire talk on any local DZ is the number of potential listeners, and that one risks damaging their credibility in front of the whole skydiving community if they get caught writing complete BS!
I've heard so much crap on different DZs from different people already in my short 3 years of skydiving, that sometimes I'd rather go on DZ.com and do some extensive research on a topic than putting up with the half-drunken Bonfire talk.
Here I can just skip the bullshit by scrolling down to the post of someone who knows what they're talking about, and who proves it with facts that I can comprehend.
I'm getting offtopic here, sorry...
blue skies
Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)
AndyMan 7
QuoteThe fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation.
Did your instructor once tell you that?
Sorry, but the 45 degree rule being false is a great example of something I too, learned on DZ.COM, and it contradicted what my instructors taught me. I sat on the fence for a while, but eventually I figured it out, and last year I taught the safety-day lecture on spotting. The crunch of my speech was "whatever you do, for gods sake don't use the 45 degree rule".
Now I'm teaching my former instructors.
Unfortunately, in this example - you are wrong. The 45 degree rule is not a good place to start. It makes no more sense than trusting the color of the sky, or the orientation of the planets. You would do just as well as to observe that Venus was ascending into Mars before following the previous group out.
Ironically, you just proved yourself wrong. You would do well to read more online, especially about the 45 degree rule. You might just learn something.
_Am
__
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
billvon 2,384
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>you believe that the people posting that information to this website are
>right and your local instructors are wrong.
Correct. I've got the pictures and video if you want to see it. They never reach 45 degrees.
>If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation,
>they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some
>actual separation.
Right, but here's the problem:
1) If one of the jumpers is smart enough to know what 45 degrees really looks like, he will never go. And while that's safe, it's not that useful.
2) If another jumper thinks 45 degrees is really 30 degrees, he will go after about a second. That could kill someone.
So what they do instead is look outside, guess, and go. Which leads to poor exit separations during high winds. In other words, the method doesn't work.
What DOES work is telling people to wait ten seconds if they need to wait ten seconds. Or tell them to count their fingers. (If they have ten fingers, of course.)
>But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here . . .
Indeed, and the 45 degree angle thing leads the list of crap.
>right and your local instructors are wrong.
Correct. I've got the pictures and video if you want to see it. They never reach 45 degrees.
>If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation,
>they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some
>actual separation.
Right, but here's the problem:
1) If one of the jumpers is smart enough to know what 45 degrees really looks like, he will never go. And while that's safe, it's not that useful.
2) If another jumper thinks 45 degrees is really 30 degrees, he will go after about a second. That could kill someone.
So what they do instead is look outside, guess, and go. Which leads to poor exit separations during high winds. In other words, the method doesn't work.
What DOES work is telling people to wait ten seconds if they need to wait ten seconds. Or tell them to count their fingers. (If they have ten fingers, of course.)
>But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here . . .
Indeed, and the 45 degree angle thing leads the list of crap.
Ncrowe 0
QuoteNate-
Thank you for making my point for me. What you are saying (and correct me if I am mistaken) is that because you read on this web site that 45 makes no sense, and even though your instructors in FL told you it is a good rule of thumb, you believe that the people posting that information to this website are right and your local instructors are wrong. Great idea.
The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation. It is not always applicable but let's look at it. Most skydivers can't spot unless the light is on. But their ego tells them that they know exactly where they are (So does mine). And most non-cessna experienced, turbine dz jumpers, short spot.
Now - if the uppers are honking at say 50 and you tell the next stick to wait 25 seconds, they frequently don't make it much past 10. If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation, they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some actual separation.
You don't often hear this kind of information on this web site because most people that have this knowledge are a) busy jumping (or rigging) and don't have time for this internet crap b) so disgusted from what they read on dz.com that they want no part of it
c) hate posting to dz.com cuz some dipshit with more posts than jumps will claim to be the expert on whatever subject is being discussed. or d) just figures that when you come to their dz they will be happy to help you face to face.
There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
Be safe and have fun.
Aaron
OK I will correct you, the 45 degree rule is wrong ...I read a lot of information on here about it , mostly from Billvon's post about the subject..I know his history in the sport....not only did he explain why it was wrong he showed video to back it up. Not too mention it made sense.....Now here's my question if I can take the time to learn about proper exit seperation why can't the people teaching the sport to others take the time as well? Also if the uppers are "honking" at 50 mph thats something that should be explained to everyone on the load before they load the aircraft and the pilot should be ok with making a go around if need be.
"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "
Shark 0
QuoteNow here's my question if I can take the time to learn about proper exit seperation why can't the people teaching the sport to others take the time as well?
How many instructors do you know of teaching this alleged "rule?"
If you see them in the act, let them know.
Ncrowe 0
When I lived in Florida it was recited too many quite a few times at quite a few different dropzones....at the time I had around 30 jumps so I just kept my mouth shut and counted when it was my turn...
"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "
"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "
PhreeZone 14
I know of at least 4-5 that did. 2 were former S&TA's that learned old school and "that fancy math stuff just ain't needed, look out, wait, then go" was their teaching method. I don't say anything since I don't have any ratings anymore.
Its been interesting to see reactions. I am wondering more about how you would react if you over hear someone giving bad gear advice too... (either too fast/small or not matching the needs of the jumper).
Its been interesting to see reactions. I am wondering more about how you would react if you over hear someone giving bad gear advice too... (either too fast/small or not matching the needs of the jumper).
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Recommending to Deploy Reserve into the mess...
Could have made a federal case out of it but instead what I did was make sure that instructor was in earshot of another student being taught correctly and the message got through indirectly.
How many hands per handle? Having a DZ policy and detailed training curriculum set in motion by the DZ management helps to settle these differences of opinion.
Ego's? I like mine with butter and syrup...
Make it a great day...
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
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