AFF Student Gear Question

[GravityGirl 0]

How many AFF-Is gear up their students with a fairly loose chest strap with the theory that the student needs room to arch?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Para5-0 0]

SNUG,
I HAVE FOUND THAT FAIRLY LOOSE CHEST STRAPS GIVE STUDENTS A NON SECURE FEELING. THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO THINK ABOUT WITHOUT THE EXTRA ADDED ANXIETY. SO SNUG AND NOT OVERLY TIGHT HAS WORKED WELL FOR ME.

[Scoop 0]

We are taught to leave it loose enough to be able to get a fist in between the strap and chest. It works fine for me and not caused me any anxiety. As long as its not loose enough to allow the straps to come off my shoulder, im happy
I do, however, practice my arch (standing up) prior to getting on the aircraft to make sure everythings where it should be when im jumping. ie straps not too tight. I find tight chest strap restricts my arch a lil bit

[Hooknswoop 19]

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How many AFF-Is gear up their students with a fairly loose chest strap with the theory that the student needs room to arch?

Hopefully no AFFI leaves it loose to give their student room to arch since you arch at the hips, not in the chest. The chest strap has zero influence on a student's arch. I have seen too many AFFI's teach students to arch in the chest and they do, but then they de-arch at the hips and are not stable.

Derek

[voodew1 0]

I don't leave enough room for a fist -- I tighten the chest strap to where it doesn't sag but it is not tight either.


On a second note
Does anyone use student rigs with universal risers?
(the risers that make out of sequence cutaway impossible)

Where I used to work we had them but where I am at now we don't

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[tdog 0]

Based upon the tandem that fell out of the harness, this morning I tried my rig on (custom made for me) and put my arms to my side and tried getting the shoulder straps to slide down my torso - as if I was in a head down or full on track premature deployment...

I found at my normal snug setting, no way to fall out that way... I found with surprisingly little "slack" in the chest strap that I could slide out of it if I pushed both shoulder straps off my shoulders and let them slide down my arms.


Convinced me that keeping the chest strap with no slack but not overly tight is the right thing to do, especially since on my rig it does not hinder any movement...

[GravityGirl 0]

That is what I was getting at Derek.

There is some myth out there that the chest strap should be loose to accomodate an arch.

I'm pretty sure none of us teach a student to arch with the chest. Put your rig on. Make your chest strap snug. Now arch with your hips. As far as I can tell, it does not interfere at all with a good strong arch through the hips.

I see the biggest problem is when an AFF-I is jumping with a smaller student. Slender or a small gril. Their own fear of going low makes them focus on the student arching. They tend to keep that chest strap loose. Well guess what? With the slender and smaller students in particular, there should be NO slack in the chest strap. ESPECIALLY the girls with the big boobs and small frame. The chest strap may appear snug over the breasts, but can easily slip over the shoulders.

Have you ever seen a student walking in from the field with a shoulder strap hanging off the shoulders? If so, the potential of them falling out through the shoulder straps exsists.

This has always been a pet peive of mine. And after this weekend, I think I'll be a bit more vocal.

AFF students pull in all sorts of fucked up body positions. Including head low, on their backs, etc. Please make sure their harness can accomodate an opening in any body postion.

That's it. Thanks for listening if you made it this far!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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How many AFF-Is gear up their students with a fairly loose chest strap with the theory that the student needs room to arch?

Hopefully no AFFI leaves it loose to give their student room to arch since you arch at the hips, not in the chest. The chest strap has zero influence on a student's arch. I have seen too many AFFI's teach students to arch in the chest and they do, but then they de-arch at the hips and are not stable.

Derek

Exactly, Derek. Good post.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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On a second note
Does anyone use student rigs with universal risers?
(the risers that make out of sequence cutaway impossible)

Where I used to work we had them but where I am at now we don't

I will start a new thread on this.

[bodypilot1 0]

Chest straps shouldn't be too loose, but they also shouldn't be adjusted too tight. Most of the time I have seen AFF-I's over tighten the chest strap of a student, the rest of the harness doesn't fit then either, and they are just trying to get away with using the, sometimes limited, gear that the DZ is supplying.
Students should be fit with a harness/container that fits them according to their body size and adjusted correctly. Most student canopies are fit into medium/large size harness/containers to accomodate a range of students, but one of the most important things an AFF-I needs to know is how to adjust the harness correctly to each student and when to say, NO THE STUDENT CAN NOT JUMP to the DZO/DMZ if none of the student gear fits the student correctly, and that it's not safe.

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AFF students pull in all sorts of fucked up body positions.

I'll second that!


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[AFFI 0]

It depends on a few factors.

The level where they are at in the progression and competency of the student’s performance.

How the rig fits, especially in the shoulder area, if it is loose in the shoulder the chest strap will be tightened enough to maintain a better fit on the shoulder and still not impede the students ability to arch.

The student’s body style, if I have some guy with a huge beer belly it has been my experience that they seem to fell belly to earth anyway, they have no choice, kinda like a badminton birdie.

If the rig fits well, the student is current with a couple jumps under their belt and has a normal body style than I prefer the chest strap not be so tight that is impedes their ability to arch. I personally teach students to arch from the hips as Derek pointed out in his most excellent posting but the chest strap on some fits can be made to fit so incredibly tight that it may impede their arch somewhat. How much, it depends on the individual, body style and such. I think the bottom line is proper fit and being comfortable and safe.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Shark 0]

I have to agree with Ed. I have them tighten their strap strap enough, but not too tight, nor too loose.

In this case we should each worry about our own students and not what other instructors or DZs are doing.

[lug 4]

Loose enough and no more so that the student can take a deep breath while standing up straight.

Memento Mori

[Pararigger 0]

I prefer it to be snug but I have seen many chest straps either so tight that the cutaway handle and reserve handles are almost touching, or they are so loose that the harness falls off the shoulders.

Have you thanked the rigger that saved your life!
IAD-I, AFF-I, Coach, MFFI566

[AFFI 0]

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In this case we should each worry about our own students and not what other instructors or DZs are doing.

Personally I find it beneficial to see what other U.S.P.A. Solo Freefall Instructors around the country are doing to better evaluate my practices utilizing a scale of comparison that may expose deficiencies in the way I am conducting my training. I have learned from the postings of other instructors and am thankful that there is such a forum that allows the collective genius to enable me the opportunity to better myself. I personally have learned from all the comments made in this string of postings.

Thanks Gravity Girl for generating some intriguing and thought provoking dialogue and to everyone else for giving me an opportunity to learn, thus making me a better instructor.

Make it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Shark 0]

How you gear up your student has no bearing on how I gear up my student. I am responsible for MY student, not yours.

That's great if you learn something from the Internet. I learn from other Instructors at the DZ or call my mentors should I have any questions or concerns. I also know and have jumped with several instructors on this board as well.

Do you teach at a large DZ?

[AFFI 0]

It is sometimes difficult to tell from written dialogue the tone in which inquiries are being made - don’t know if there is a chip on your shoulder or you are being friendly.

If there is a chip on your shoulder I don’t have time.

If you are being friendly PM me and well get to know each other.

[Shark 0]

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It is sometimes difficult to tell from written dialogue the tone in which inquiries are being made - don’t know if there is a chip on your shoulder or you are being friendly.

The Internet is what it is. I made a statement and you are free to agree or disagree.

Like many instructors I jump and teach everyday. I don't have many jumps as other instructors, but I have completed over 800 AFF jumps and taught close to 200 FJCs. (You can add around 500 tandems to that.) I'm not the greatest instructor and am still learning. Telling someone (here) how to gear up their student is not part of my charter.

Debating on-line is useless.

[AFFI 0]

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The Internet is what it is. I made a statement and you are free to agree or disagree.
Like many instructors I jump and teach everyday. I don't have many jumps as other instructors, but I have completed over 800 AFF jumps and taught close to 200 FJCs. (You can add around 500 tandems to that.) I'm not the greatest instructor and am still learning. Telling someone (here) how to gear up their student is not part of my charter.

Debating on-line is useless.

We are in total agreement - debate online is useless. Debate in any forum can go either way, if is argumentative than it is a waste of time, if there is a good exchange of information occurring than it is not – and this is only how I view the use of my time in my life, others might view it differently. I avoid debate on DZ.com as much as possible and stay out of the “chat” forums visiting only the Safety and Training, Instructor and Incidents forums as I do not have time for drama.
Learning however; be it online, in person, from books, over the telephone, listening to stories at the fire, letters, emails - basically any exchange of productive dialogue where exchange of knowledge is occurring and getting input on how others do things is not a waste of my time. It is simply information to draw upon and has nothing to do with the responsibility of how other instructors perform their duties in their daily practices with their students. If I came across to you as being confrontational than I apologize, it was not my intent whatsoever. I am humbly inquisitive by nature and have an affinity for varying knowledge, techniques and practices that allow me to consider contrasting methods of performing varying tasks. So I am not debating with you, I would rather to think of it as we are learning and exploring possibilities together so do not take any of my comments as confrontational but rather friendly and endeavor to have a mutually beneficial learning experience and look forward to any comments you and others will add that will further enlighten the readers of this forum that will make us all safer and better educated skydivers and instructors of skydivers.

I will send you a private message concerning my personal credentials.

Make it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[DanglesOZQld 0]

The "fist able to fit" works for me and I do not and have not had any problems with it. I have seen a lot of cases of students with the chest strap so tight as to make it impossible to arch properly.

As far as sitting in the plane there are some items on the harness that are loose until you stand or move prior to exiting. Without going into too much detail I usually tell the students why we don't want the chest strap as tight as steel and the leg straps reasonably tight.

BSBD!! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[ripcords 0]

For the slender gals and guys, it is important that they wear a rig that has a narrow enough yoke so that it keeps the rig on their shoulders.

The design of a harness is with the main lift webs as the main structural load bearing straps. If a chest strap is overly tightened, such that it causes the main lift webs to V-in, it will put additional stress on the chest strap. This can cause the strap to be cut and damaged by the metal adaptor.

Snug is good, overly tightened can be damaging and potentially dangerous.