Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

In response to all these posts, I don't necessarily think an AFF-I should lose their rating ... however, I am unsure what you mean by "dropped". Killed? Lost? Cypres fire?

Frankly, and I can only speak for myself here, if a student under my supervision went in, I would not continue to instruct, maybe even skydive. Lose a student during a skydive? I guess it all depends. Losing a student temporarily on a release dive, it happens. Did you get back in time? Were you there at pull time?

There are too many variables to consider. As far as trying goes, most of the AFF-Is I know and work with, work their butts off trying but I think we all try very hard to prevent things from happening. I think as far as what we do, we all strive for perfection eventhough we have to accept that we cannot be perfect all the time.

As far as tumbling students, I have had them and dealt with them. I have however also seen video of students I do not think I could stop or would seriously wonder how or if.

The one that comes to mind was on one of Skydive Chicago's best of AFF. The video was played after we earned our ratings as sort of a, you think we (the evaluators were bad...) WATCH THIS----->

They explained to us in the course that they were targeting specific skills and instructor abilities but that as much as they challenged us, they would never be able to replicate some of the abilities of young skydivers.

Anyway, this one student began doing rotational cartwheels in the sky and I mean vertical. He was boxed out in a vertical spin and his arms and legs looked like blender blades. Now, me personally, Yes I am going to try and do what I can to help the student until 2,000 feet, but aggressively attacking an out of control blender may not be the smartest way to handle it.

In a situation like that I may hesitate to dive in. Does that mean I am not trying? Not necessarily. Should my rating be pulled?

It is my opinion that we do what we can on the ground and hopefully have respect for what could go wrong in the air. Being a lifegaurd taught me about prevention being the best safeguard from emergency.

I think the bottom line is that we cannot ever expect a guarantee in the game of life. You have to fly if you are going to do AFF. I consider AFF a challenge sometimes and that is one of the reasons I enjoy doing it. I would hope that the people who earned their ratings demonstrated the abilities necessary. Glenn Bangs was my Course Director and he said it very plainly.

I believe the story went: An AFF I candidate offered him a very large sum of money for a rating. Glenn's position was, why would you want this rating when you do not possess the skill or ability? It is not like we are rolling a bowling ball down an alley. We are throwing ourselves out of airplanes at high speeds toward the ground.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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In response to all these posts, I don't necessarily think an AFF-I should lose their rating ... however, I am unsure what you mean by "dropped". Killed? Lost? Cypres fire?

The student either goes in or their AAD fires, i.e. the AFFI is unable to catch them.

Derek

[Tonto 1]

I'm 100% with you here.

Although I only have 1800+ AFF dives, I have yet to come across the student who does not pull - or be pulled out by the hard deck on a skydive. I'm fortunate that my build and weight allow for a great range of student weights from around 100lbs to 220lbs, and speeds from the high 90's to the low 140's. Dressing for success is the key. That, and being ready for the unexpected.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[skyjenn 0]

After years in the sports and hundreds of AFFs I had my first "no can get" in August, on a level one. Initially the rjm released right after exit, it was that bad...after tumbling, I got the student stable, but on his back as I reached across his chest to flip him, he tucked his knees and went into the fetal position. Not only did we go around, but with only one grip I finally slung off. I was stunned and proceeded after him. The other jm got him, but not stable; as I dove to assist, feet away, the videographer flew in front of me and I had to stop immediately to prevent a collision. As I dove again the student and jm began flipping and ended up in a sit with the student in the lap of the rjm held by a wrestling grip. As my dytter went off I realized I couldn't catch them and watched hopelessly as neither pulled and went lower and lower. Finally I pulled high and immediately started to look for them. As it turned out the rjm let go at 2,000' and pulled; the student saw him and pulled and at the same time the aad fired. The student landed with 2 canopies out, safely.

I beat myself up for a long time as to why I couldn't catch them. Sit flying is fast to start with and with 2 of them the speed was too much. The camera man was just doing his job. Lots of things happening here.

2 weeks ago I found myself in the same position, but this time he didn't get away! At the end of the day we found out that three of our affs were making repeated trips to the truck and we know they were drinking after the jumps; we had suspected before. Three affi's tried to figure if they were, but couldn't prove it, that's why we jumped them. One of them could have killed me as he barrel rolled into his pull. I was rjm and trying to ride out the pull after a horrible, horrible dive. I popped off and got out of the way as his lines came toward my face and avoided a potentially hazardous situation.

Although an affi should not repeatedly lose students, we do not all know what these students are bringing to the table. They lie, drink and plan stunts and sometimes we are at their mercy. Should we be removed simply because we didn't catch them, no, all factors must be considered and each situation is unique and should be assessed separately.

Thanks for letting me air this out!

[AFFI 0]

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After years in the sports and hundreds of AFFs I had my first "no can get" in August, on a level one. Initially the rjm released right after exit, it was that bad...after tumbling, I got the student stable, but on his back as I reached across his chest to flip him, he tucked his knees and went into the fetal position. Not only did we go around, but with only one grip I finally slung off. I was stunned and proceeded after him. The other jm got him, but not stable; as I dove to assist, feet away, the videographer flew in front of me and I had to stop immediately to prevent a collision. As I dove again the student and jm began flipping and ended up in a sit with the student in the lap of the rjm held by a wrestling grip. As my dytter went off I realized I couldn't catch them and watched hopelessly as neither pulled and went lower and lower. Finally I pulled high and immediately started to look for them. As it turned out the rjm let go at 2,000' and pulled; the student saw him and pulled and at the same time the aad fired. The student landed with 2 canopies out, safely.

I beat myself up for a long time as to why I couldn't catch them. Sit flying is fast to start with and with 2 of them the speed was too much. The camera man was just doing his job. Lots of things happening here.

2 weeks ago I found myself in the same position, but this time he didn't get away! At the end of the day we found out that three of our affs were making repeated trips to the truck and we know they were drinking after the jumps; we had suspected before. Three affi's tried to figure if they were, but couldn't prove it, that's why we jumped them. One of them could have killed me as he barrel rolled into his pull. I was rjm and trying to ride out the pull after a horrible, horrible dive. I popped off and got out of the way as his lines came toward my face and avoided a potentially hazardous situation.

Although an affi should not repeatedly lose students, we do not all know what these students are bringing to the table. They lie, drink and plan stunts and sometimes we are at their mercy. Should we be removed simply because we didn't catch them, no, all factors must be considered and each situation is unique and should be assessed separately.

Thanks for letting me air this out!

Thank you very much for sharing this experience with us - I will be giving this thought provoking post plenty of thought but my initial reaction is that you have been totally effectice in the way you expressed yourself in your explination of this situation.

Sincerely, thank you very much!

MAke it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Totally agree - once maybe twice can and does happen but if it is a regular thing it should not be allowed to continue.

BSBD!! -Mark.

Quote - No, AFFI's are hopefully doing their best but perfection should be expected of no one. Now if they do it on a regular basis or cannot fly their slot on a non-problematic student...

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[AFFI 0]

Thinking it was my second season as an instructor and I had one student deploy on his back at 8-9k. I released and he caught me by surprise, flipped onto his back and went to spinning. Around 6-7 seconds and I still was not there but was on my way to get him and believe I was on a good course to do so coming in on a steep diagonal trajectory from above, being only seconds away I remember thinking he was mine. It was so cool! I was going to get my first save! Not that I was hoping for it per se but all the hours of training for that moment left me with a sort of “eagerness”. He reached for his hackey and I put on the brakes as fast as I could, I certainly didn’t want parachute for lunch. Then the coolest thing happened – he looked at his altimeter, let go of his hackey and waved off they deployed his main while still on his back, his canopy opened cleanly. I was disappointed in myself because I did not get there in 5 seconds or less and lost a little sleep over it but the cool part was he did as he was trained.
This experience taught me a couple of valuable lessons early on, the first of which being the importance of through ground training that I learned from guys like Drill Sergeant Green, Don Yahrling and Scott Borghesse - because I am not superman and wont always be able to get there in time. Thank goodness for Otter altitude! Secondly it taught me to remain closer to students until they get my trust then after they earn my trust to try to fly just as tight once they start performing maneuvers, overall, to fly tight on them like I did my evaluators at the AFFCC. I had to wait 2 more years to get my next chance to make a save – on that one I was there in time, I learned not to be a gentleman and wipe the snot off of a students face in freefall because it might mess up their concentration. I have had to make additional "saves" since but overall opportunities to make saves haven’t come as often as I suspected they would early on but I have to stay prepared on every student jump because I never know when that opportunity is going to present itself.

Make it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

My God Jenn!

I just read your post and had to respond. Kudos to you girl. From one Jen to another. I have been there sister. Well, not quite there, but I can certainly understand. It sounds like that was a seriously scary skydive. All I can say is that I have had one or two of those myself.

You cannot blame or beat yourself up for what you did. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

Blue skies,
Jen

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

D,
I know an AFFI who was grounded because he was doing a recurrency with a guy who "apparently had a D license and 500 jumps". The AFFI thought since the guy was only 2 yrs uncurrent, it'd be like riding a bike..not so, he went to pull, became unstable, struggled to get stable, then went to pull again, then unstable....thus bled off lots of alti...finally the Cyprus fired around 700, AFFI followed him in freefall until then..then the AFFI pulled his MAIN at 700, which put him under canopy at 200. He was grounded because he first of all stayed below decision alti, secondly went to his main vs reserve. They were both very "lucky" to say the least.

_________________________________________

[Silverchic 0]

Thats nasty!

How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?

[cruzit 0]

Couple of years ago I was flying mainside on a level 1. He was flakey out the door and bucked and rocked through the practice pulls, so much so that I never let go of his high shoulder for fear he would flip. He settled down after the practice pulls and I thought "cool, he's going to do alright." Big mistake! I went ahead and let his shoulder go and reached for his wrist to help guide his hand for his pull. He looked down, bent almost double and threw me neatly over his and the reserve jumpmaster's backs...oh about 20 or 30 feet away. By the time I flipped back over and turned around, reserve and student had folded up and funneled dropping altitude like you wouldn't believe. I went head down but realized shortly I would never be able to catch them. I had no desire to eat the student's main, and we were well below his assigned hard deck, so even though it was a hard decision, I broke and let the reserve side have him. (the video is narly by the way). Fortunately, my reserve side pulled him out well above 2,000.

Yes, I made a mistake by letting his shoulder go, but who knew... Did it deserve grounding, I don't think so. I erred on the side of giving the student his opportunity to learn. Now, if it happened every time I jumped with a student that would be different.

J

[Trae 1]

Seeing huge heavy AFF instructors trying to skydive with lightweight studends can look very unprofessional.
Similarily lightweight instructors are going to have issues with very heavy students. Lead may solve some of these probs but better to maintain range by other methods eg heavy/ large I's and S's together . Lightweight I's and S's the same.
Horses for courses.

I've seen instructors who strapped lead onto their students in their efforts to get relative. This type of thing can be difficult to deal with if its the podgy CI wanting to jump with the pretty svelte female student.


As for letting go unintentionally ..shyte can happen .
If it was a regular occurance the instructor needs some more instructing/experience and perhaps sidelininguntil they re-prove themselves.

The reverse can happen too. I had my nose broken by a JM who was supposed to let go but didn't. He kept flapping up and whacking into me. If I'd let go I would have been the irresponsible one. End result a very uncomfortable skydive for all. I felt I could have easily dealt with the situation if he had let go as per training.

If instructors don't have highly developed freefall skills all sorts of undesirable things are going to happen ...often invisibly. It's so easy to blame the student and some low-skills rely on this too much.

Well run operations will keep a close watch on their new recruits. In the back blocks sometimes anything can happen.

[Lok 0]

Hi I find this thread searching around and reply even I am not an AFF instuctor, just for my experience during my initial AFF
dives (as a student) back on the days (2001/2002 in UK).

Hope read my experience be good for both AFF instructors and student parachutist.

I start AFF on Octomber 2001, did AFF 1 and 2 the same day and everything went perfect.

Did AFF 3 one month later, and everything went perfect except a very slight involved turn to one side.

I then didn't jump for about 3 months because of a very bad weather winter, small days (late arrival to the dropzone due to distance from my accomodation).

When finally I went for AFF level 4, my personal instructor was not available as he was teaching AFF to new student.
I was going to jump with an other instructor and I was very nervus because of the 3 months lay-off.....I have a perfect exit as before, but after the Instructor released me, I get unstable and start tubling.
He was superb, in my side always catch me and smiling to me, then I was able to get back from backfly on the stable position and pull by 5500ft.

When I landed, thank him for the life save, we had a debrief, and the instructor told me that we'll go to jump again AFF level 5 ( 4 and 5 are practically the same told me, so no need for rejump).
The next dive in the same day, was going to be memorable.
I was still nervous and during ground rest I was always practice stable position in the floor with hard arching continuously for 40-50 seconds.

When we went back on the altitude, I had a perfect exit, and when the Instructor released me, I was in perfect stable position (hard arching like the practise I have done in the floor), like I was skydiving for years........The Instructor was so fucking huppy, that released me and came in front of me in a distance about 5-6m for me.
Then after few seconds I get tired from arching hard and the one leg starting play, then I get in involved turn which very fast went to a spin...

I have seen many videos from bad aff student up to world class skysurfers and I can honestly say that no one outperform me in spining.

I must perform about 70+ 360 degree complete turns
between 11,500ft and 8000ft (approximately, exit altitude was 13,500ft).

The problem was not only the spining, but in fact my legs went up quikly first, and still remember shocked the instructor as I was removed from his area very quickly turning at the same time before starting the incredible spin.

During the spin, I was sure that those were my last seconds in life, that everything is over, and that was my mistake to get involved in this sport.
I was not able to read my altimeter, I was not able to look around (was like been inside a tunnel) I was starting take funny posistions thinking that the spin will stop but nothing happens, I did a first attempt to pull the ripcord, but that was for some reason impossible.........then I went on a last attempt puting a lot of force, and finally pull.....

The chute (spring system) opens through I was on belly fly (but spining like mad) and the twists stoped on my risers (canopy was a PD210).
I was still falling fast as the chute was half their area until I cleared the twists.
Then I looked at my altimeter and was 7000ft.
Due to high winds I land off the dropzone, doing several miles cross country to find a road to land after the valey.

After my landing I thought skydiving is not for me,
a truck from the dropzone collect me and we went back to the airfield, I smiled to instructor, he signed my logbook and this was the last lift for the day.

The next day when I waked up back in my university room, I remember my eyes were green all around with a red cyrcle each and this take one month to get off.

I never learned why happens that, doctor told me 'from the pressure'?

My next 4 AFF level 5 rejumps (one month later after my eyes cleared) went bad. This time with my personal instructor.
I was perfect in exit, pull always by myself but was unable to be stable the entire dive.
I have lost my confidence, simply.

The instructor was a superman always correct me from spin, tubling, back fly spin and combination of both.
He simply save my life 4 times even I pull myself.

Then he told me to do a skydive just stable possition (no turns etc) and relax.

I refugee, and dissapear for the next 4 years!!!!
I came back 2 times made the ground school then desapear again.
The third time ,winter of 2005, the CCI told me that is a waste of time and money for me to go back to the airplane............and that a windtunnel in UK was in final stage before open!!!!!
After 48 minutes in Bedford with my personal Instructor I finished AFF in 5 jumps in April 2006, 5 years and 6 months after my AFF level 1
My conclusions to students (maybe I am wrong check it first with someone who knows):

1) AFF is safe and exciting but try to book 7 days off your work, studies etc, to complete the entire course in one week................live for 7 days in drop zone, even in UK winter with bad weather I don't remember a person who was 1 whole week in the dropzone, who didn't finish his AFF.

2) When the instructor says 'skydiving is just RELAX' he/she mean it.
Just hard arch and good timing on the exit, and then relax..
If you are like steel, instructor is impossible to work and help you find your stable possition.

3) Read my story, to avoid doing stupid things during your training.

4) Never give away, skydiving is incredible sport, and worth the effort.


I am not able to give advice to AFF instructors.

Just my thoughts........: Bad students like me we always exist, no matter what you are teaching in the ground and how intensive.
From level 3 ground preparation, my instructor teach me how to stop a spin, an involved turn and repeated several times during the whole course.

If any student has months to jump between AFF level 3 and 4, better to repeat a level 3.

If you have a Tunnel in your area ask the student to come (if he can afford it) for 20-30 minutes training after AFF level 3, no matter if he was good or bad student in previous jumps.

Use every tool available to help people progressing in the sport.
In the wind tunnels happen miracles.

For any case, use a rig with spring-pilot chute
system, for AFF students.

............................................................

In my opinion AFF instructors (no matter where they have complete their course and in which country) are more capable persons than spacemen.
The instructor who lost me was a real life superman, and I still believe that no other AFF instructor (in this world) on his position could do better.
Every student cleared for AFF level 5, is responsible for his life, to pull his ripcord.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I can't believe that the DZ let you advance to the next level after more than 30 days since your last jump. Go that long at the school where I worked (until last year) and you were going to have to sit through retraining and re-do your last level at a minimum. Skydiving training (any method) is not something you can take three years to complete. If you are commited to learning the sport, then take the time to get through it in a prompt and timely manner!

[Lok 0]

Chuck

Thanks for your reply, you are totally right.

There are many things that went wrong with my AFF course but at least, at the end, I finished it, and I am free now to carry on with the sport.

I checked today my logbook:

My AFF level 3 was on 19 November 2001 and my AFF level 4,5 was on 18 January 2002.
So about two months brake and not 3 months as I mentioned before (I'll edit my previous post later).

You are tottaly correct about re-do my level 3 after 60 days off.
This is maybe the only faulse the Dropzone did to me, but maybe they didn't want to charge me for retraining and they thought that I can carry on with no problem.

The main and (probably) the only problem from this AFF tragedy, was me, through there is an extensive list of stupid things I have done.

Did the ground school and came back after one week to do the first 2 levels, then left again and came back an other day and so on..............even I had pay the full course.

Could easily took off a week from the university through was start of academic year ( no problem to don't attend lectures) and finish the course in 5 days as all the people are doing.
Never took particular interest to read the forecast.
Arrive to the dropzone sometimes too late, when the last lifts were all booked...........etc,etc,etc,etc...

As I said before I wrote my AFF experience, because i think is educational for students parachutist, to avoid repeating the same stupid things I have done......and maybe for AFF instructors, how to thread students under similar circumstances, so all the students/instructors will be safe and all the training courses will finish smouthly ( with no drama) even with some delay...

This can be a particular problem, especially for dropzones working only weekends, where are sometimes big intervals between student training and AFF levels.

I'll believe always, that AFF instructors ( thoose who graduate their course and are up to standars) are supermen, and superwomen.
An AFFI never lose its rating, maybe he can do some reevaluation jumps if for some reason,have one or more years
to do AFF dives with students (my opinion).

[wmw999 2,117]

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An AFFI never lose its rating, maybe he can do some reevaluation jumps if for some reason,have one or more years

Unless it's changed over hte years, an AFFI most definitely CAN lose their rating. I lost mine in the late 80's due to lack of use and currency. Even my card used to have the "expired" date on it, but I don't think it does any more.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Wendy, I think what you're talking about is more like, your rating went away because of a lapse in currency. I once held a SL JM rate which I basically let lapse for what sounds like similar reasons. Rather then what HnS was originally saying / asking...

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The student either goes in or their AAD fires, i.e. the AFFI is unable to catch them?

... where an AFFI gets his or her rating revoked for the reason(s) / scenario HnS was stating.

The scenario he brings up is a tough one. In my time in the sport, I've seen 3 AFFIs (or AFF Jumpmasters as we used to call them) chase a student down to the point where the student's AAD fired and the AFFI/AFF JM barely got under his (or her) main parachute in time to save themselves. I've also seen one JM chase a student down to the point where the student's AAD fired and the JM DID NOT get his main (he threw his main... didn't go reserve) out in time to save his life... line strech & impact; he was a quad for several years before he died of complications. I also know another SL JM that "lost" a student; after he put the student out on a SL jump, the student's main malfunctioned, the student didn't try to deal with it until a couple of hundred feet above the ground, finally cut-away (SOS), but too late, pretty much line strech and impact under the reserve & the student died. It screwed up the SL JM in question and it was a long time before he started jumping again and even longer before he went back to being a JM. He was probably the most ultra conservative JM I've ever know, which, on one hand is a good thing, but on the other hand, the way he came by it, sucks, to say the least.

I think HnS's orig question is a good one. I think the potential for an AFFI to have his or her rating revoked should exist, but I also think all the circumstances surrounding a student AAD fire or a student getting away from an AFFI should be looked at before just pulling their rating. Unfortunately, I think that when this happens... we all know it does from time to time... its handled a lot more quietly or "not talked about" maybe as much as it should be because, face it, we don't like putting ourselves or buddies on report, but this is at the expense of doing a better "investigation, cause & effect and what to do to prevent this in the future" exercise that would be of greather benifit to the JM, DZ, sport, etc.

However, good or bad, most every AFFI I've ever really gotten to talking to about this topic has a "hard deck" that they'll admit to, if pressed, in the back of their minds that they won't chase a student past. The proliferation of AADs certainly changes this as it adds the "safety net".

Even though when I came up in the sport, there were AADs on the student rigs I jumped (FXCs), I got off of student status and DID NOT have an AAD on my personal rig for several hunderd jumps before adding one... I can't imagine doing AFF in an AAD-less world or even direct-bag Static Lines.

[Lok 0]

For some reason (forum regulations) I can not edit my previous post........as I said the break between my AFF level 3 and 4 was 2 months (and not 3 as I said in my first post in this topic).

That was enough time for me to got nervus, but I met students parachutist, who took their AFF course in France ,after big break from their training, and jump immediately with one only instructor assist them......and they did well...

So, generally talking the only problem with my AFF course was me, did really bad and I was a poor student after AFF level 3.

I totally agree through with Chuck that maybe a repeat on AFF level 3 could have benefit my case, and I strongly recomend not big gaps between AFF training and levels.

Also one more edit!!! I start AFF octomber 2001 and finish April 2006, so 4 years and 6 months course!!!!!!!!!!

Also here some educative videos I found in youtube, regarding AFF goes bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC-CTwe-7dI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdogsTlYGnY



AFF instructors are the most capable persons in our world........they jump outside an aircraft!!!!!!!!with a first timer (who sometimes he/she never been before in an airplane) with only one day ground preparation!!!!!!!!!! and they have no clue how thoose first timers will react in this fantastic enviroment of 10,000+ft above the ground????and what they must expect from every student????........but they keep training new people in the sport using the same method (AFF), and many times they work with no money.

RESPECT

[4WayXena 0]

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It seems that folks are overlooking the other side of the coin here. I've seen little students that have through some work, gotten away from AFF-I's at different DZs due to their little size/light weight and flattening/de-arching due to fear or whatever.

Dress for success. I have worn camera wings on an AFF jump (without using the thumb loops). You have to be able to match the students fall rate.

I bought a firefly wing jacket for just that purpose so I can work with 120lb students (Me @ 215 exit weight) with great success. I don't recommend it unless you work out flying the wings first or with every Category A or every "problem child" Category D.

Having the wing jacket has doubled my capability to stay with smaller students. But also correctly assessing my capabilities as an instructor to safely stay with a smaller student is just as important a skill.

[SkyjunkySean 0]

obviously I'm not an instructor I just read everything here so I can learn as much as possible. Thanx for having the balss to post that. I blew my level 4 ( totally ) my fault. however I had an instructor I had never had or seen before & from the get go I knew I did not want him to be my instructor ( btw he is a very good skydiver) he just decided to change everything that my other instructors had taught me & I was finally relaxing. till this jump!....anyway jump went bad I sucked. came back the next day to repeat. he had no clue who I was ( even tho I had a cutaway on the jump).also there were mitigating circumstances that day. all this not withstanding he was to be my instructor on level 5 & against all my will I asked s & ta (my first instructor) if I could have a dnother instructor. she asked why & agreed it would be better. from what I have heard also I am not the first to make this request. anyway thanx again for posting your comment I second guessed myself for awhile about this