How to catch a tumbling student?

[jheadley 0]

I have my coach rating and have started doing coach jumps with students. I'm having a hard time chasing unstable students, though. I had one student take 2000 feet to get stable, and it took me another 2000 feet to get down to his level in a dive. What do you have to do to stay with the student when he's unstable? I can't arch hard enough to follow with them that way, and when I try to dive at them, I have a lot of foward movement.

[outlawphx 1]

Well, you need to work on getting your dive more head down. You could also carve your dive around your student (think about water going down a toliet bowl).

[jheadley 0]

What are some things I can do to get my dive more head down?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I had one student take 2000 feet to get stable, and it took me another 2000 feet to get down to his level in a dive.

How did this student get signed off to jump by theemselves?

Derek

[LawnDart21 0]

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Well, you need to work on getting your dive more head down.

I'm a coach, I have 250 jumps, and you suggest that I go more head down to catch a student?

That will increase my speed of closure and decrease my visibility. Hmm, not exactly a recipe for success.

Perhaps a better solution would be to prevent yourself from being put in a position that requires you to go into a head down dive to catch the student.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[mattjw916 2]

I think he meant a "steeper" dive and not "headdown" in the freeflying sense. I have had to go almost "headdown" chasing flailers before but I prefer the stair-step method so as to minimize the odds of a high-closing-speed collision. At least that was what I was taught.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Deuce 1]

On a Coached jump, it should not be necessary for you to dock a tumbling student. In order to get off AFF, the student has to have demonstrated the ability to get unstable and then get stable again belly to earth. Your role as Coach is to refine their demonstrated ability to fly themselves.

That said, the biggest issue I have found with Coaches is that they don't have enough speed range on their bellies. When you need to speed up, you arch until your back cracks, put your feet on your ass, and bring your elbows to your sides and hold your hands in contact with your chest with your palms together in front of yourself like you are praying. As your accelerate you can use your hands like a foil to direct your movement.

Diving and stopping, one skill, is the most underacknowledged talent in skydiving, and a must for an instructor.

Do yourself a favor and go out and find your range. See how slow you can fly, and still have manuverability, and the same thing with how fast, on your belly.

I did my AFF with Jay Stokes, and the guys who tried to incorporate freeflying into the curricula failed.

Specifically, the way you stop a tumbling student is you dock them, as hard as you have to. If they are on their backs, you grab the nearer lift web, and the farther leg strap and rotate them towards you, using the chest arm to stop the rotation. You then shake them and get them to relax and show awareness of signals before releasing them again, or deploying them at the hard deck.

As a Coach, you should never be put into the position of having to deploy a student. Those issues should have been resolved prior to being released to solo.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

In working with freefall students you need to be very, very agressive and proactive. You must anticipate that the student is going to hose you and therefore you need to be on them from exit. Ultimately, you gotta do whatever it takes to stay with them while at the same time keeping your eyes on them so that you can anticipate their next move and, of course, give them a proper debrief. The old "chicken dive" position gives you the same velocity as a blind, head-down dive while at the same time allowing you to keep the subject in sight. For new jumpers who don't know what a chicken dive is, I will just say that it resembles the atmonauti position. There was an article on it many years ago in Parachutist. Anyway, that's what I do when someone zoos a solo exit or I miss the count when doing tandem video.

Chuck

[mikeat10500 9]

Try backsliding steep...the opposite of a dive...better visibility and backing away so not to be over top. When far enough back and down change to a delta towards the novice , down to their level, but don't get too close....crazy things can happen when people learn to fly. As already mentioned you must antisapate in advance.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[JohnRich 4]

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What do you have to do to stay with the student when he's unstable? I can't arch hard enough to follow with them that way, and when I try to dive at them, I have a lot of foward movement.

"Style tuck". Ask an old-timer to show it to you. It's like doing a "cannonball" off a swimming pool diving board, with your knees pulled up to your chest and your arms tucked into your sides. You'll go straight down, at a much higher fall rate. It takes a little practice to do that and stay stable, but it's a handy maneuver to have in your bag of tricks.

[Canuck 0]

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I did my AFF with Jay Stokes, and the guys who tried to incorporate freeflying into the curricula failed.

Can you elaborate on this or explain why?

Canuck

[GravityGirl 0]

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I did my AFF with Jay Stokes, and the guys who tried to incorporate freeflying into the curricula failed.

Can you elaborate on this or explain why?

Canuck

Yup. I want to know too. On many occassions I've had to get on my head to get to and stay with a student. I've docked and corrected students while on my head as well.

I also have good video of myself and Hookkit doing an AFF. Although you would swear it was a freefly dive... until I flip the student over.

Honestly, I don't think of what my body is doing. I just point my head to the student and get there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[rhys 0]

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Honestly, I don't think of what my body is doing. I just point my head to the student and get there.

zigactly

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[AFFI 0]

I like to free-fly, and I like belly flying too. The cool thing about AFF is we sometimes get to free-fly the top half and belly-fly the bottom half! AFF student saves can be very intense and happen rarely but when jumping with students the instructor must be prepared for such contingencies on every jump! It is going to happen if you do AFF. If you can’t make saves you shouldn’t be doing AFF, on the other hand it is important to recognize when a student is going to be out of your range, if someone is 100 pounds heavier than you are when you are wearing your maximum weight, perhaps this is a student that could be better matched with a heavier instructor. Like Clint Eastwood said, “A man needs to know his limitations”. Furthermore, AFF instructors are not superhuman! We can’t make every save every time so that is why ground training is so incredibly important. I have had students dump out of a bad situation a time or two (still with plenty of altitude) but getting a parachute overhead is a paramount.

That being said, Derek and a few others have stated one important fact, this was not an AFF jump, it was a COACH jump. I do not recall in any of the coach courses I have been involved with having saving spinning students as part of the curriculum because Coach rating holders are not supposed to jump with actual “AFF STUDENTS”. Have a plan for your main canopy deployment altitude and stuck to it. The person you are jumping with SHOULD NOT be an AFF student so let the person you are coaching be advised that your pilot chute comes out at a certain altitude and if they see your come out, then they got about 12 seconds left! It is not a coach’s responsibility to make “saves”.

I have heard stories concerning Coach rating holders doing actual AFF jumps with AFF STUDENTS; hopefully you have not been presented with such huge responsibilities at your experience level…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[jheadley 0]

I never said I was trying to "save" the student, I said I wanted to catch him, meaning get down to his level, so we can make the planned skydive...

[AFFI 0]

There are two maneuvers on the A License Proficiency Card from the USPA that ensures the teaching of this to USPA solo freefall students commonly referred to as the “Dive Swoop Dock”. It is stated: Dive a minimum of 100 feet after another jumper and dock safely without assistance from the other jumper (two times). It is part of our solo training program. The way we teach students if first learn the Delta Dive which is in its simplest terms, feet fully extended, arms swept back 90 to 45 degrees out from shoulders with exenterated chest presentation, chin up so you can see where you are going. This will give you a diagonal dive with less body presentation to the relative wind. Once you dive half the distance to your target go back to the arch so you can bleed off the speed you have gained in the diagonal. Ideally you want to come on level 10 feet from your target so you can approach horizontally to take the dock.

Lawndart21 wrote “Perhaps a better solution would be to prevent yourself from being put in a position that requires you to go into a head down dive to catch the student.”

If the FJC we teach the importance or avoiding situations before they become a problem so I think what Lawndart is eluding to is not letting a coach-ee put you in a position where you have to catch up to begin with which is good advice but it only applies all the time in a perfect world. In situations where I have to dive down to a flailing student the only thing I can say really works has been in my experience is repetitive practical exercise. I practiced doing it over and over again and finding out what worked best for me to obtain the objective safely without hurting anyone. When I had only 250 jumps and 2 years of skydiving experience under my belt I do not believe I personally had the skills to perform such maneuvers safely. I am a fat ass so I tend to stay beneath students somewhat since “getting down” is much easier for me than “getting up”. Making rapid adjustments in fall rate is paramount in avoiding separation from happening in the first place which comes with repetitive practical exercise so it all boils down to practice.

Advice?
Keep jumping, practice all flight orientations, dress for success, find a friend to make drill dives to practice your skills, stay within the guidelines of the USPA or whatever governing body issued you your coaches rating and be the BEST damn coach you can be!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

That's a couple of good posts by you in a row. Also, I would like to second that Bonnie said: I keep my eyes on the student and don't really pay attention to what my body is doing to maintain that proximity. It's just automatic when you are skydiving at the "very-experienced" level.

Here's what I can relate to you from my younger days: I remember very clearly thinking that I could skydive very well at around 100 jumps. Hell, it was then that I got my SLJM rating. I could do pretty much anything, but had to talk myself through what I needed to do with my arms and legs to get to that next point on an RW dive. At 200 jumps (when I got my SL-I), things started getting easier because I just had to remember what the point was called and my body would just sort of do it. I stayed very busy teaching SL students at the miltary club I jumped at, but then really got interested in four-way. At 500 jumps I had lived through a couple of reserve rides (one under a round) and could pretty much anticipate what a student was going to do, but still got smoked in the AFF course because I suffered from a "four-way mindset". What that means is that I was used to doing blind turns and having my teammates still be right there where they should be. I un-fucked myself most-haste and figured out that I had better be very proactive when dealing with any and all students. It was over 1500 jumps later that I finally went got back and got my AFF ticket. I had been chasing SL freefall students on their 30 and 45-second delays for many, many years by then and knew what it took to stay with a "loose canon". Nearly 1000 AFF jumps later I doubt that there is anything a student of any size could do to get away from me.

Chuck

[DJL 232]

A good way to practice chasing students is to shoot video. You're bound to work your ass off flying, you get used to the funny shit that students do, and someone else has to deal with all the important stuff.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Deuce 1]

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I did my AFF with Jay Stokes, and the guys who tried to incorporate freeflying into the curricula failed.

Can you elaborate on this or explain why?

Canuck

They had the minimum number of jumps and experience for the rating, and hadn't done hardly any belly flying since their own AFF.

Knowing how to move around all axis in a sit is useless when you are gripped on a level one that needs to arch.

The number of freeflyers that can stay with a release dive in a sit or head-down is very small. I just don't see the argument here. All skydiving experience improves any skydiver, but the AFF program as it is is a belly program. To be able to teach somebody how to move around and change their fall rates on their belly, the instructor has to know how to do that.

What the hardcore freeflyer instructor candidates would do when things went bad when Jay did his retard-student stuff and tumble out on them was go to a sit. It's hard to drive forward in a sit and then put arms out forward to take a dock on the student. It's more effective to arch hard, drive forward with legs and drive into the student to take the dock and unf*ck them. The other way they got undone was when Jay as the student was tumbling, they would go sit or head down to get to him and he'd "figure it out" and get stable and slow down and they'd rocket past him going into a big sit, or back flying, but that's not as slow as a flat belly flier. Also, usually in a slow sit, the flyers arms are behind them and wide, not a position that allows for docking.

In the end it's a muscle memory thing. If someone never owned a bumper suit, and have a total of 10 belly jumps, they are going to have a real hard time getting their AFF rating. That's not a criticism of freeflying, Bonnie.

[jlmiracle 7]

I have found knee flying for a bit to drop to their level works pretty good. I've used it many times as a late diver. If I find myself at a angle where I am going to over shoot my spot, I go on my knees to I drop more vertical and can keep everyone in sight. It's worked for me in both formations and AFF.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[packerboy 3]

I'm in the same boat, only I don't want an AFF rating. I want to get a tandem rating soon, but I have done nothing but freeflying since my own AFF program. My worry is that you have to be a coach to get your tandem rating and I am worried that I will fail that.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[skypuppy 1]

No sense wasting a lot of time worrying. Coach rating is pretty easy course. Buy the manual, read it, talk to Fuzzy or Tom, do the course.... You'll probably be surprised how well you do. It's at least as much a 'people' skill as a 'flying' skill.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Remster 24]

What are you worring about? failing, or not being as good a coach / instructor as you can be?

I'd recommend to you to get some solid belly skills if you want to go down the instructor route. I'm not saying get rid of the FF, but really, you do need to be able to make aggressive inputs in a belly position when instructing.

Remster

[bert_man 0]

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As a Coach, you should never be put into the position of having to deploy a student.

I just took the coach course this weekend, and learned that as a Coach (without an AFF-I rating), it is actually against the BSR's for you to deploy a student.

[dperrotta 0]

If not comfortable with head down or other recommendations, try the relative stable movement. Arms way back on your back, arch to get the chest as the forward part of your body and ARCH.

Id be cautious about recommending the AFF student turnover to a coach. The first thing I tell my coaching clients is that they are in charge of their jump and as a coach, I will not be there to save them.

Dennis