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1335smaj

When Instructors go low-

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This weekend I heard/overheard an instructor chastizing a student (31 Jumps and cleared for unsupervised freefall) for not being able to keep up with the fall rate. The dive was planned to evaluate clean exit and forward movement to unassisted dock.
Well, if I have it correct the student was evaluated as a "no go" and assigned to another lighter instructor. The second instuctor declined and deferred the student to an unrated but competent jumper who wanted to jump and video the evaluation dive.
Is there anything wrong here?
From what I gather on the first jump the student piked straight down and forced the instructor to swoop. He punched it and went low (this is an assumption and may be incorrect) when he went low he blamed the student.
I remember a lesson in dressing for success to match fall rates, and I also remember a lesson in knowing your abilities and deffering students to better matched instructors if necessary.
Any comments?
All cats die. Socrates is dead. Socrates was a cat.

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According to USPA, it was wrong for an unrated jumper to take out a student. Morally I don't think it is wrong if the jumper was in fact competent enough; this is exactly how beginning freefly coaching works, and the dangers are certainly higher there in my opinion. As per the first jump, the instructor was completely at fault. If it is ever an issue of fall rate or backsliding or any other issue which a competent instructor/coach can at least overcome during that dive, then the I/C is responsible for not doing so. Especially troubling is that the instructor was chastizing a student for a problem, especially if the student shouldn't even be faulted. Even if a student causes a two-out by pulling at 800', the student should never be chastized. There is no benefit to be gained, except maybe the realization that there exists a poor instructor on that DZ.



I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

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You are correct in the Dress for Success. At 31 jumps did this person have an A license? If so, then them jumping with a non-rated person was fine.

If I, as in instructor, go low, then it is my fault. The student may have dearched and started float but I am suppose to be able to deal with that.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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My memory from when I was teaching is that late-students can be chastised for not bringing beer, farting in the airplane, ignoring things on the ground, and stuff like that.

Being a student is what they're supposed to do. Instructors should know enough to figure out when they're not the best person to help, as well as what they can do to help.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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My memory from when I was teaching is that late-students can be chastised for not bringing beer, farting in the airplane, ignoring things on the ground, and stuff like that.

Being a student is what they're supposed to do. Instructors should know enough to figure out when they're not the best person to help, as well as what they can do to help.

Wendy W.



That's what I teach em, but they have to bring me a diet pepsi.;)

If I question on whether or not I can stay with them, and they are "self supervising" without an A license, I will do everything I can to find them someone that won't have to question whether or not they can stay with them.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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No, there was no "A" license. That was where I started to have a problem with the whole thing. Additionally, I felt the poor guy got ripped for having to pay for the instructors slot and the "I" fell out of the dive. Then he had to jump with the other nonrated person and get evaluated by a jumper with less than 200 J's! Should you accept a "Go or No Go" from a non rated relatively inexperienced jumper?
All cats die. Socrates is dead. Socrates was a cat.

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The instructor has a rating. An "I" rating in two disciplines. You are correct in one sense, he is not rated as an AFFI. You still lose your bet. He is TI, SL/IAD I and as you bet a coach to boot. Some AFFI's have been known to fall out on occasion. That is why AFF students are briefed on contingencies if they lose one or more instructors. But your point is still taken.
My point if I have one is; if you go low on a student pay for your own seat, bow out gracefully, and let someone else teach the student. Reinforce what the student did well, retrain on the things done not so well and set the conditions for success and not failure. Don't assume he has another $20 for the jump, $20 for the instrcutors seat, whatever for the fee, and $25 for the rental of the FF rig. Treat him like it is the last jump he can afford and set the conditions for success prior to donning the rig and climbing in the plane. AFF or not the student is buying the best the instructor can offer.
Accomplished skydivers do one thing exceptionally well; Chase new jumpers away from the sport.
All cats die. Socrates is dead. Socrates was a cat.

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I think the biggest point Lawndart was trying to make is no self-respecting AFFI would ever blame a student for the instructor going low. He / she would probably go off and beat themselves up for the mistake they as an instructor made by being on the wrong jump, not dressing properly or just plain scrwing up in the air. I know where I would place the blame if I went low.
chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

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You're right,
Lawndarts point is well taken and agreed with. I was really arsed up about the ordeal at the time. I wondered why nobody else even seemed to notice. The student never knows. It is a really small DZ and some of the people there have never really jumped anywhere else. They just accept that is the way skydiving is and skydivers are. It would not have happened like that any other place I have been.
All cats die. Socrates is dead. Socrates was a cat.

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Was this "instructor" a coach or an AFF instructor?

I'm betting it was a coach.

Most AFF instructors dont go low, and the ones that do, don't blame the student.



Not cool. I'm just a coach, but I wouldn't blame the student. [:/]

Seems like it's more an issue of maturity than experience or ratings.

Lance

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Don't personalize a generalization just because you happen to be a coach. I never said all coaches blame students if they go low.

To put it in your words, AFF instructors are typically more "mature" instructors than coaches, because they have more experience, and hence they are less apt to unfairly blame a student if they go low.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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This weekend I heard/overheard an instructor chastizing a student



That just sucks... Maybe if the student almost killed someone by being intentionally reckless, he might deserve harsh words and a coach who refuses to jump again with the student...

But... I remember around 25 jumps not being able to catch up with my coach. He had a few hundred jumps and was new as a coach. He went low - actually he left first as it was a dive and dock and I could never close the last 25 foot gap as I flew above him doing my best arch, which was poor at the time. I had not been trained as well as I needed to be and did not realize that by keeping the eye contact my head was flat and not arched and thus slowed me down...

He assumed a prior coach gave me the skills I needed to know to keep my head real high and look for him out of the bottom corner of my eye. The coach told me, "It is completely my fault. I did not train you on how to solve this problem. Lets jump again and I will pay my slot."

Attitude is everything. On my worst skydives in terms of getting tasks done, my coach still came up to me and gave me a high five and told me what I did well, then volunteered solutions for what I needed to improve. I remeber my first coach jump post AFF, where I was unable to do what was assigned with grace, it was my worst dive to date at the time. I walked up to the coach upon landing with my tail between my legs with the AFF attitude "I failed that level" and thought, "Why is she laughing so hard and smiling? That dive sucked." We laughed hard at my mistakes (or novice skills) I wanted to jump again right away... Attitude is everything.

Sounds like this guy needs to learn how to work with people with novice experience and needs to realize that student's performance is directly related to how much training investment coaches give.

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To put it in your words, AFF instructors are typically more "mature" instructors than coaches, because they have more experience, and hence they are less apt to unfairly blame a student if they go low.



In so far that your average AFF-I will be a better flier than your average coach, that's probably true, but saying that a coach is more likely to chastise a student I think is an unfair generalization. Maybe that's how it ends up happening in the real world, but that doesn't change the fact that you are criticizing coaches as a group. Just because I negatively stereotype a particular race with no insult towards any one member of that race certainly doesn't make the negative stereotype right. You said that coaches are more likely to chastise students....that's not fair. It comes down to the fact that the individual instructor that is being mentioned is just a poor instructor; sounds like a poor flier too.



I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

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You said:

"Maybe that's how it ends up happening in the real world, but that doesn't change the fact that you are criticizing coaches as a group. "

If that is how it happens in the REAL WORLD, then how is it unfairly cirticizing?

Get a grip larsrulz. I'm not criticizing coaches as a group. I am a coach too.

I dont know what it is about the internet that makes it required that a simple single statement be over analysed and picked apart word by word.

If you think I'm criticizing coaches as whole, then you missed my point completely. So be it.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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I dont know what it is about the internet that makes it required that a simple single statement be over analysed and picked apart word by word.



People in glass houses...

Relax, dude, I think the point lazarus was trying to make was that coaches in general are not more likely to berate students, just that this particular INSTRUCTOR was not very good.

To play devil's advocate, on an unassisted swoop and dock, the student is supposed to be responsible for fall rate adjustment. Obviously I wasn't on this particular skydive, but if the instructor was two feet low and the student was unable to drop down, then the student should not receive a GO. Berating the student is not right, but perhaps not passing the student was.

- Dan G

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Hi Dan,
Good comment. Fall rate adjustment is expected, but so is setting the conditions for success. This is not to imply "doing the task" for the student, but simply making certain the task is doable.
What I believe happened is the student was tasked with a poised exit and forward movement to unassisted dock. No problem- Well, as the poise pulled off the student piked straight down and then over creating a significant amount of vertical separation. We should anticipate this shouldn't we? Anyway, to catch up the instructor/evaluator nosed it over and punched passed him in a steep no lift attitude. Again this created a significant vertical separation, enough that the student could not adjust.

Some things that I felt needed to be recognized at the time by those involved-

1. We all make mistakes. We should try to avoid them but they will happen.
2. Accept responsibility when they do. Don't blame others, or equipment, or anything else.
3. Talk about the dive with fellow instructors to gain insight on how to avoid the issue on future dives.
4. Don't make the same mistake.
5. Don't charge the student for your fees and your slot.
6. Grant the student the benefit of the doubt. Roll over and watch the stability and control of the student. Watch their efforts and evaluate what you can. Applaud them for their efforts to overcome your mistake. If they were stable withing 5 seconds, flew with relative ease and closed at least 10' (i.e. demonstrated 10' forward movement) of the distance to me on heading they did pretty darn good.
There are usually some really good things in every skydive right? Even if it is just the positive attitude during the ride up.
All cats die. Socrates is dead. Socrates was a cat.

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Yeah, I'm so throwing stones........

And my point was that IMHO he's wrong, a coach is simply more likely to berate a student than an AFFI. Why? They are newer to teaching, and some feel that they have more to prove. End of story. That does not mean I think every coach would berate, nor does it mean I am attacking coaches as a group.

But that isnt going to prevent a handful of people that have thier coach ratings from saying "Hey, I am a coach, so he must be talking about me, and I would never do that, so he must be wrong."

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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Yeah, you are throwing stones. Don't you find it ironic that you are critisizing people for berating others while in the same post berating lazarus for disagreeing with you? Probably not.

He made a point about being overly critical, you disagreed and jumped in his shit. Sounds like a glass house situation to me.

Anyway, to get back to the main topic. I agree that if the instructor was at fault for going low, then he needs to do everything in his power to still make the jump constructive for the student, including the debrief. I have told students that I fucked up in the past, and I'm sure I will again. I have never berated a student, although I have had some pointed discussions about safety issues. This particular case sounds like the instructor made a mistake, and then had an ego issue admitting it. Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher.

- Dan G

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Ok guys im just going to bring this thread back up just to clear some things up. It is totally possible that 1335smaj got the story a little messed up because he didn't hear it all, it happens guys. No hard feelings :)
But, just to clear things up, this guy has a really slow fallrate. The instructor who went with him started sinking right off exit, there was no swooping down to him. His thought process was that this is an "A" license check dive, and that this guy should be able to speed up his fallrate by now. The fact is that while this may or may not be true, some people cant afford to just lay base. He still charged him for his jump. Needless to say he didnt get his license.

I happen to be the other non rated instructor. I didn't have under 200 jumps when this happened as stated. I think I had 270 or 280. I'm 5'7 and 127 lbs. and I was having to slow down for this guy. He eventually got the dock as required, but did NOT track AT ALL. That was my reason for not giving him the license. On that jump he had to track away.

After my jump with him was over I went through everything with him, I went in our back classroom and explained why he turned on the hill and what to do to speed up fallrate. I went through the video, I went through everything I thought of. I do feel like the first instructor probably made him feel a little bad because there wasnt really anything to say except that he didnt get his license. We've all been there before, we've all felt crappy after a jump that we didnt do so well on.

This is simply a story that got a little twisted around due to miscommunication. It happens all the time. I hope this clears things up and with no hard feelings. B|


--I don't even know enough to know that I dont know--

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