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JohnRich

Tandem Passengers Under the Influence?

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Hi Aggie! I'm from Texas (a long ways from)! and I was wonderin'...do ya'll have gun racks in the back winder of yer plane too?:D



Why, sure! A .410 gauge shotgun with snake shot is great for getting recalcitrant static line students to let go of the strut! Yippie-ki-yeah!

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Why, sure! A .410 gauge shotgun with snake shot is great for getting recalcitrant static line students to let go of the strut! Yippie-ki-yeah!
__________________________________________________

You see, in Oregon that type of behavior just ain't P.C. and could get you in trouble with one of them Alphabet Agencies.

So, what we do is cover the struts with cooking spray!


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We just dipped the wing quickly. Enough times, and anyone would fall off :)
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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If EVERY tandem rider who jumped took up the sport, the sport couldn't cope with, or cater for the numbers......thats why tandem factories exist......

A lot of riders only want a ride.....and I've never seen anyone who desires to continue not being able to do so.......

Perhaps the US needs to reassess its definition of how a tandem is defined......it wouldn't actually change anything, but it might reduce some unwanted "obligations".......
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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The fact that it used the phrase "under the influence" OR a max of .04 suggests otherwise.



I'm not sure about your state's laws, but in TX "under the influence" can be 1 light drink or 100 hard drinks. It doesn't mean legally intoxicated (.08 here in TX), all it means is you took something (doesn't have to be liquor either) that impares your ability.



In California you are presumed not under the influence at less than .04, presumed under the influence at .08. In between your performance in any field tests will be the point of contention at the trial.

I read the codes listed in the same way. At .04 and up, you're automatically guilty. Below that, you would need to be showing signs.

But if I were in your shoes and saw a customer with a beer, I'd presume it's not the first one and question their attitude toward the safety training you'l be delivering.

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Perhaps the US needs to reassess its definition of how a tandem is defined......it wouldn't actually change anything, but it might reduce some unwanted "obligations".......



Sure, but then skydiving could be taxed as an amusement ride. You laugh, but the IRS is already trying to do that to a DZ in TX (not mine) and they're (as well as every other DZ and the USPA and the manufactures) are sticking to that a tandem student is a student and we treat them as such. Weither the student responds accordingly is up to the student, but there are much more sinister things afoot due to the IRS and their jack booted goons.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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A tandem rider is not "conducting" parachute operations....he's going for a ride....



Not as it stands in the US. A tadems student IS a tandem student. We treat them as such. Even if its not a Cat A or Cat B tandem, its still an intorductory tandem with training, similar to an introductory flight for someone wanting to persue their pilots license.


There sure are a lot of 'students' violating the headgear BSR these days.

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I personally agree with that statement, Ron, but is that really true per the codes you listed? The fact that it used the phrase "under the influence" OR a max of .04 suggests otherwise.




§ 91.17 states:
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§ 91.17
a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.



So while .04 BAC of #4 is true, you must also meet the other three. So thats no drinking for the past 8 hours, not under the influence, on any drug that is contrary to saftey.

So if you drank 9 hours ago and had 0.03 BAC...Guess what? While good under #1, and #4 you would still get busted by #2 and #3.

They wrote it pretty much to say, "Don't drink and fly."

Also, § 105.7:
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§ 105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs.
No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.



105.7 spells it out really easily. No one under the unfluence may conduct a parachute operation.

You agree that even one drink puts you under the influence.

So its pretty clear that the FAA would slam you for it.

BTW part of my job is dealing with the FAA on a now daily basis (Oh, Joy). The FAA has given my company its very own FAA Regional Saftey Inspector as part of the Air Transportaion Oversight System that came about due to the Valuejet crash in 97.

Once I fiqure out how cool this FAA guy is, I will ask him his take on this....Anyone wanna take bets?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Once I fiqure out how cool this FAA guy is, I will ask him his take on this....Anyone wanna take bets?



I wonder if the answer would be consistent. Again it's comes down to how a tandem passenger is classified, and under the influence (literal) vs under the influence (legally).

I'd bet that if there is any ambiguiety on it, the FAA guy will side with 'hell no.'

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Yeah but if a rule is consistently ignored, it either is a "bad" rule, or wasn't carefully thought through before implementation..........

Tandem IS just a ride.....and should be regarded as nothing more or less..........but it CAN be used for instruction as a bonus.........I'm certain Bill Booth wasn't thinking of instruction when he concieved the idea....

The rule is arse about face......

Either way it should be revised and either modified or deleted.........

People should not be subjected to stupid rules and shouldn't be "criminalised" for breaking them.............

What possible danger/threat/hazard is posed by a person who is going for a ride as a passenger, and has had one beer beforehand.....

Its a nonsense......and you all know it!!!....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Having done a few thousand tandems now...and dealt with all types of people..
I have no problem if someone has had a beer or two(or whatever) and wants to do a tandem..

Most times they are more relaxed and more co-operative..and generally happy...

Pent-up stressed out passengers are far more dangerous and unpredictable....

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You know you guys might not have a problem with your tandem passengers/students having a beer or two and thats fine. However, If someone gets hurt or worse your ass is going to be in the wringer so tight you wont crap for a year.
Do you really think that waiver will hold up in court if there is alchohol involved?

Your life, your choice.
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"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

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Tandem IS just a ride.....and should be regarded as nothing more or less



Then we will be taxed as "amusement rides".
Also the tilt-a-whirl at the state fair is not as dangerous and as potentaily deadly.

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What possible danger/threat/hazard is posed by a person who is going for a ride as a passenger, and has had one beer beforehand.....



Almost no physical danger. However the financial danger is pretty big.

I will agree with you on several points.

1. Stupid rules, or rules that are ignored should go away....But this is the FAA after all, so thats not likely to happen.

2. Most Tandem jumpers will never jump again. So it does not matter for the most part... However for those that continue it sets a bad example to let them start jumping with a buzz and then tell them they cannot drink and jump as an AFF student, or fun jumper. Unless you think licensed jumpers should be allowed to drink?

3. There is very little physical danger to allowing a tandem to jump under the influnece... However the legal dangers are quite huge. And at what level do you call it? One beer? a certain BAC?

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Its a nonsense......and you all know it!!!....



No, I agree with it. It would set a bad example and opens up WAY to many legal issues.

Is drinking that important?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I don't see the tax issue as relevant....politicians are already experts at seperating us from our hard earned cash...one way or another they know how to tax us......one of the two certainties in life...


Surely FAA have no say in FORMULATING skydiving rules, they just ratify the rules skydivers come up with......after all we are the skydiving experts.......we can change rules if they reduce our exposure to litigation....and we should if they don't compromise safety.....its ridiculous that we have to live in terror of litigation........with that sort of fear, what is the point of doing what we do......

If someone who takes a tandem ride then wants to train to jump solo, can't differentiate between the right and wrong time to have a drink then they are obviously too thick to be jumping solo......come on, people do possess some common sense........and we control them during jumping...we are dealing with adults, not babies here....

Never advocated, and never will, drinking and jumping, for solo jumpers, till after jumping is over for the day.......

For tandem riders.......maybe the borderline could be "advised" as the same as drink drive levels........no way am I advocating taking people who are off their faces......but I'm not worried about a couple of beers or a glass of wine, or even a shot or two of spirits........We still can reserve the right to refuse them if we think they've overdone it......

Shit...I don't want someone chundering all over me any more than you do.....

People can take all sorts of medicines, quite legally, all sorts of chemicals, and several sorts of alcohol, lie on a waiver form, and conceal it from us to our face........but we are then liable for their deception???......its bullshit, and wrong......and the worst thing is: we've basically made the rod for our own backs.....

All I'm saying is tweaking a few minor rules would remove us from the firing line and expose us to a little less potential flak.....and why not???.

Common sense rules....that all....and no...drinking isn't that important.......certainly not important enough to have us living in fear of it......
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I don't see the tax issue as relevant....



Then you don't actually understand what is at stake.

If tandems are taxed as amusement rides (which they're not, IMO), then it will overnight double the price of a tandem and the videos. If they tax tandems then there's already talk of them taxing jump tickets, so your lift ticket will literally double over night. Nevermind that with less tandem traffic, those nice Otters will be really hard to pay for (you buy a plane for your student base, not your fun jumper base if you're a DZO, since its the student base that really pays the bills, the money made from fun jumpers barely maintain some bills).
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I don't see the tax issue as relevant....politicians are already experts at seperating us from our hard earned cash...one way or another they know how to tax us......one of the two certainties in life...



The USPA had to fight an attempt at the Government to make Tandems joy rides and therefore taxable as such. (One of the few things I think the USPA has done well).

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Surely FAA have no say in FORMULATING skydiving rules



They have all the say they want. The FAR's were not written by the USPA the FAA wrote them. All they did was think "airplane that falls". Thats why most of the FAR's deal with planes, certifications, and equipment.

Like it or not the FAA decides if someone can be under the infulence...And they are not likely to change their opinion.

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we can change rules if they reduce our exposure to litigation....and we should if they don't compromise safety.....its ridiculous that we have to live in terror of litigation........with that sort of fear, what is the point of doing what we do......



The FAA does not give a rats ass about your fun. They are about safety. Show me ONE extreme sport where alcohol is allowed by the participants.

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If someone who takes a tandem ride then wants to train to jump solo, can't differentiate between the right and wrong time to have a drink then they are obviously too thick to be jumping solo......come on, people do possess some common sense........and we control them during jumping...we are dealing with adults, not babies here....



I could list 5 well known organizers off the top of my head that jump stoned.

There was just a bounce in NJ of a guy that was twice the legal limit. We had a good canopy pilot drink half a bottle of alcohol and try to perform a night hook turn in MS. These are just two off the top of my head.

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People can take all sorts of medicines, quite legally, all sorts of chemicals, and several sorts of alcohol, lie on a waiver form, and conceal it from us to our face........but we are then liable for their deception???......



Nope if they LIE then why would we be at fault? We are not cops, we are not responsible for determaning if someone is legal to drive/jump...But you want to make it so we ARE responsible. So if we make the wrong call it will be your ous ass in the sling. After all we knew they were drunk and we let them jump.

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All I'm saying is tweaking a few minor rules would remove us from the firing line and expose us to a little less potential flak.....and why not???.



The FAA does not see that as a "minor" rule.

Why not? Well it opens us up to a whole new level of litigation risks.

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Common sense rules



I know several stoners that would say that being stoned an jumping is just fine.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Why would it double?



I'm only going off of what I know of whats currently going on with the IRS in TX. That's where the number came from.

For us, the only video we sale is a training video to debrief our student. We set it to music to make it more enjoyable to watch and such, but its a training video.

Taxing things in skydiving outside of sales tax is a BAD idea, it opens up more doors for more things to be taxed.[:/]
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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"8 Hours dry or no fly."

-Works for skydiving and flying, and most of us know that there are limits to this as well such as the sensible (hopefully self regulated ones) that would tell you *sometimes* you need to take the whole next day off not just the 8 hours from last beverage!!! BSBD! -Mark



"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

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