Liemberg 0 #1 January 30, 2005 Since Rob appears to be to lazy , I'll make the poll a few people asked for in the tandemmasters handcam thread. Please DO remember that as a species we skydivers have a tendency to make it more difficult for our heirs to get a rating. One note on option four: Skills may be difficult to measure but doing tandems I never regretted that I'm over 6 feet tall. I DO shy away from heavy passengers though, especially on no-wind days. I wouldn't if I had more upper body strength. Both (length and upper body strength - 'Now give me fifty push ups, you maggot!' ) CAN be measured... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 30, 2005 I firmly believe that physical conditioning is paramount to being a long term successful TI. If for no other reason, if your body is strong, then it can take the abuse. However, skill can and will overcome brute strength on the skydives. The class I is supposedly supposed to take care of the physical side of it, but then again, if you can make to the Dr's exam table under your own power with out running into too many walls then you'll pass.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #3 January 30, 2005 QuoteHowever, skill can and will overcome brute strength on the skydives.Really? Are you saying that there are jumps that do not require both? QuoteThe class I is supposedly supposed to take care of the physical side of it, but then again, if you can make to the Dr's exam table under your own power with out running into too many walls then you'll pass. I don't think so! I think you are confusing a "Class I" medical with a Class III medical. There is a huge difference between the two and only a Class III is required by the FAA for doing tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #4 January 30, 2005 I had exactly 500 when I got the rating. I've done just over 300 tandems now and everything has gone pretty smooth so far. On the other hand, there's a guy that had about 700 when we took the cert course together. He's a good belly flier and does a great job on video, but he absolutely sucks at doing tandems. He's probably done as many as I have now and he still sucks. It's like "READY, SET, DROGUE!!!". (I've seen some scary shit that I won't get into) Then he spins like crazy all the way down to pull time. I hate doing video of him because the students look at me all disappointed and say "Howcome you didn't get my face on there?" I don't think you can put the same number on it for everyone. I think you should just have to do it with the examiner until you show that you can do it right. That's my newby opinion anyways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 January 30, 2005 QuoteReally? Are you saying that there are jumps that do not require both? By no means. I was basically implying that there are some TIs out there that couldn't even bench their weight (which is very light) and they seem to get things done. I personally like the ability to flat out brute strength some situations and I've had to rely simply on strength a couple of times. For instance, I've use rear risers to get orientated after deployment on literally every tandem I do. I don't really have to, BUT the last time that I was doing tandems at a very large DZ in Texas the ability and strength to quickly rear-riser tandems came in handy...when there's 9 tandem pairs on an Otter, things get crowded after deployment sometimes. There's more then one TI that I know that can't even complete a simple task such as using the rear risers to get around without using both hands and everything they've got. QuoteI think you are confusing a "Class I" medical with a Class III medical. There is a huge difference between the two and only a Class III is required by the FAA for doing tandems. The Class I is the "high end" with more tests, its good for only 6months and is required for pilots with a commercial ticket working in that capacity. The Class III is the very easy low end flight physical, which is required for a pilots license OR a tandem rating (according to the manufactures). The Class III is a joke, that's what I was getting at as well. Joking that as long as you're not so blind that you can make it to the Dr's exam room without running into too many walls and someone didn't have to carry you there, then you'll pretty much pass the low end Class III ticket. Sorry, should have been more clear instead of making my point with a joke.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #6 January 30, 2005 After your 40 yrs old the Dr. is required to do a prostate exam. Now your class 3 medical is only good for two yrs. Once your 50 yrs. the class 3 is good for only a year. I cought your joke, but I do not find anything funny with a Dr. puttting his fingure in my rear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ematteo 0 #7 January 30, 2005 Personally, I think time in sport is as important as the 500 jump requirement. Lot of folks come up fast in this sport but it takes a while to see (and internalize) some of the scary things that can happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #8 January 31, 2005 Is there any evidence that the 500 jump min has caused problems? Has anyone ever collated the known tandem fatalities by jump numbers? Bill B, you out there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #9 January 31, 2005 No/Yes, It is on the RWS web site. For the 34 tandem fatalities shown. only three were sub 1000 jump tandem instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #10 January 31, 2005 By no means. I was basically implying that there are some TIs out there that couldn't even bench their weight (which is very light) and they seem to get things done. I personally like the ability to flat out brute strength some situations and I've had to rely simply on strength a couple of times. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now listen sonny boy. Back when I was your age - and could bench press my own weight - I used to muscle my students around the sky. Now that I am old (19 years later) and lazy, I prefer to talk them around the sky. Though I would like to see some sort of physical fitness test. For example, when I earned my PFF rating, the Course Conductor (a wiry little bastard) insisted that PFF Instructors be able to do a minimum of 10 chin ups. Back then, I was not strong enough for his standard, but have practiced enough that I can do 10 or 12 in a row now. And I agree with you that the more muscle mass you have, the more of a beating you can take. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #11 January 31, 2005 QuoteBack when I was your age - and could bench press my own weight - I used to muscle my students around the sky. But the weight increased? QuoteThough I would like to see some sort of physical fitness test. What do you think the standard should be? A USMC PT test is a good judge, but that's way overkill. Should there be exceptions to the PT test for age, experience or medical conditions? Should TI's be required to retest every couple of years? How much and how far should it go?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites propilot 0 #12 January 31, 2005 Well, just for the record, commercial pilots to not necessarily need a class I to exercise commercial priviliges. your 182 jump pilot only needs a class II. Also, none of the med certs have much anything to do with physical capacity to lift/etc. my class I consisted of an eye test, urine test, and getting fondled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #13 January 31, 2005 Quotemy class I consisted of an eye test, urine test, and getting fondled. Hence the fifty push ups... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybum1 0 #14 February 1, 2005 "Then he spins like crazy all the way down to pull time. I hate doing video of him " So did you try to talk with "that guy" and try to help him to stop the spin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NSEMN8R 0 #15 February 1, 2005 I've told him why I think it's happening. I try not to make too big a deal about it because he's such a nice guy and you can tell he feels bad when he sucks. Plus I don't feel like it's really my place. The DZO/S&TA and some of the more experienced guys have had some talks with him though. I didn't really mean to dog on him that much. I just wanted to show that some people just won't get it no matter how many jumps they have. He's as strong as a horse too, but it hasn't helped. I don't think jump numbers should carry so much weight. And one of the best, most experienced TIs I know is 5'9" and 145lbs. I think it should be really simple. If you can prove to an examiner you can do them right then you should be able to do them. If not then you shouldn't. Regardless of jump numbers or physical strength. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cpoxon 0 #16 February 1, 2005 QuoteIf you can prove to an examiner you can do them right then you should be able to do them. If not then you shouldn't. Regardless of jump numbers or physical strength. That's tricky. Doing your drills in a controlled environment (i.e. with a bag on the front or an experienced skydiver who knows how to arch, keeps their limbs to themselves and that it is in their best interests not to cause any problems) doesn't really prepare you for a live, unpredictable punter on your front. I guess you are right in that it's down to trusting the examiner's judgement. My tandem skills improved by doing tandems. It's like learning to drive a car; you can demonstrate the skill and knowledge enough to be let out on your own but that initial period is risky. You can't beat experience and there really is no substitute for having someone on the front of you? Is there anyone out there who can say they didn't have a tandem early on in their career that they struggled with? If you can, how many jumps did you have when you started to tandem. Might make an interesting poll along with "Do you think you had enough jumps/experience when you started tandeming" Also, how many people out there had people on the front give them a hard time during their course? I've read several posts on here where friends have gone along and made it difficult for the instructor candidates. I have the impression that this doesn't happen in my country a great deal. Another tricky situation. AFF instructors are worked hard on their courses since most examiners are only doing things that they have had real students do to them but I think the risks are different. At the end of the day, there is a hard deck and all the parties are independent. With tandems, you have two parties connected, with the added complications of equipment such as drogue and handles, as well as decision trees. Like with the AFF, you should be able to handle whatever a student can throw at you but I'm not sure the course is the right place to do it. Perhaps some tandem "consolidation" jumps are the answer; once you've proven you can do your drills, controlled instability and tandem terminal and passed your course, then go out with a friend to make life difficult for yourself. Anyone doing this unofficially?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #17 February 1, 2005 QuoteAnyone doing this unofficially? Since I don't know what the course lay-out is nowadays, I'm not sure. It used to be that you did the course, got the rating, made five jumps with licensed skydivers and were let loose at the general public. Expecting the unexpected however, comes from real live confrontations with the unexpected... And then (once 'tandem-zen' A former student of mine, who was a free-style jumper AND a ballet dancer used to be asked a lot by one tandem-examiner to be the passenger for his candidates - since that small girl could throw things at you you would never expect with 'legs where they don't belong' (like one leg stretched out sideways) ... To me it seems like a no-brainer that given the choice of "making a couple of fun rides with your friends" or "it is paid for / have to do them anyway - I might as well get myself trained in the best possible way", smarter candidates would choose the latter... Also, keep in mind the distinction between what is dangerous (throwing the drogue while unstable, get into side-spin on exit) and what is inconvenient (not keeping the heading under the drogue) Like in all other aspects of life, there is some 'on-the-job-training'; It would be nice if f.i. surgeons only were allowed to operate on their own once they had done 15 operations on their own - but that is impossible. The good news is that there is lots of video - it comes with the teritory... Reviewing those video's with a highly experienced TI in order to improve your technique seems like a smart plan. Im confident that this is done almost everywhere... edit: almost caught by the spelling police... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #18 February 8, 2005 QuoteAlso, how many people out there had people on the front give them a hard time during their course? I've read several posts on here where friends have gone along and made it difficult for the instructor candidates. The first two jumps when I went through the course involved perfect students. The examiner put mild screws to me on my no-drogue jump but shaped up when I demonstrated control. I don't do anything particularly bad when I'm out front. The obvious fetal on exit, mild tracking during freefall and/or droguefall (not enough to put us so head low that there's risk of entangling the drogue bridle), and taking them for a few turns in droguefall. In my opinion, you wouldn't want to actually scare the candidates (that could be dangerous). You just want to give them a little taste of potential problems and let real students give them their fill. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites douwanto 22 #19 February 9, 2005 I believe There needs to be a base jump ## as well as the time in the sport requirement. If you dont have a minimum jump number then all the 20 jump wonders would be the best TI in the world just ask them. The time in the sport helps weed out the 500 in a year skygods who learn it all today and have no practical experience. These 2 in combo are a good start to attaining the skills needed to be a competent TI if the person has what it takes it is now up to the TE to check them off and give them the thumb up. The medical is a joke you could get it with 1 leg and half of a back. My 2 cents. Chris Whitley Vector, Sigma, Strong Jumps 1830 Tandems 830 FF 610 RW 220 Camera 170 Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites overmyhead 0 #20 February 15, 2005 you miss one !!!! xx jumps + skills / pass a stupidity test Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #21 February 15, 2005 Quoteyou miss one !!!! xx jumps + skills / pass a stupidity test Usually the xx jump requirement is already an indication of the stupidity level. If you are really stupid, you will probably not manage to make at least 500 or 1000jumps. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #22 February 15, 2005 Quoteyou miss one !!!! xx jumps + skills / pass a stupidity test The fact that you - with that many jumps and fully aware by now about the thousand things that could go wrong - are willing to give it a try with another living person strapped to you... That IS the stupidity test! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites douwanto 22 #23 February 18, 2005 Quote The fact that you - with that many jumps and fully aware by now about the thousand things that could go wrong - are willing to give it a try with another living person strapped to you... That IS the stupidity test! Right on Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ematteo 0 #7 January 30, 2005 Personally, I think time in sport is as important as the 500 jump requirement. Lot of folks come up fast in this sport but it takes a while to see (and internalize) some of the scary things that can happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #8 January 31, 2005 Is there any evidence that the 500 jump min has caused problems? Has anyone ever collated the known tandem fatalities by jump numbers? Bill B, you out there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #9 January 31, 2005 No/Yes, It is on the RWS web site. For the 34 tandem fatalities shown. only three were sub 1000 jump tandem instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 January 31, 2005 By no means. I was basically implying that there are some TIs out there that couldn't even bench their weight (which is very light) and they seem to get things done. I personally like the ability to flat out brute strength some situations and I've had to rely simply on strength a couple of times. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now listen sonny boy. Back when I was your age - and could bench press my own weight - I used to muscle my students around the sky. Now that I am old (19 years later) and lazy, I prefer to talk them around the sky. Though I would like to see some sort of physical fitness test. For example, when I earned my PFF rating, the Course Conductor (a wiry little bastard) insisted that PFF Instructors be able to do a minimum of 10 chin ups. Back then, I was not strong enough for his standard, but have practiced enough that I can do 10 or 12 in a row now. And I agree with you that the more muscle mass you have, the more of a beating you can take. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 January 31, 2005 QuoteBack when I was your age - and could bench press my own weight - I used to muscle my students around the sky. But the weight increased? QuoteThough I would like to see some sort of physical fitness test. What do you think the standard should be? A USMC PT test is a good judge, but that's way overkill. Should there be exceptions to the PT test for age, experience or medical conditions? Should TI's be required to retest every couple of years? How much and how far should it go?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #12 January 31, 2005 Well, just for the record, commercial pilots to not necessarily need a class I to exercise commercial priviliges. your 182 jump pilot only needs a class II. Also, none of the med certs have much anything to do with physical capacity to lift/etc. my class I consisted of an eye test, urine test, and getting fondled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #13 January 31, 2005 Quotemy class I consisted of an eye test, urine test, and getting fondled. Hence the fifty push ups... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybum1 0 #14 February 1, 2005 "Then he spins like crazy all the way down to pull time. I hate doing video of him " So did you try to talk with "that guy" and try to help him to stop the spin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #15 February 1, 2005 I've told him why I think it's happening. I try not to make too big a deal about it because he's such a nice guy and you can tell he feels bad when he sucks. Plus I don't feel like it's really my place. The DZO/S&TA and some of the more experienced guys have had some talks with him though. I didn't really mean to dog on him that much. I just wanted to show that some people just won't get it no matter how many jumps they have. He's as strong as a horse too, but it hasn't helped. I don't think jump numbers should carry so much weight. And one of the best, most experienced TIs I know is 5'9" and 145lbs. I think it should be really simple. If you can prove to an examiner you can do them right then you should be able to do them. If not then you shouldn't. Regardless of jump numbers or physical strength. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #16 February 1, 2005 QuoteIf you can prove to an examiner you can do them right then you should be able to do them. If not then you shouldn't. Regardless of jump numbers or physical strength. That's tricky. Doing your drills in a controlled environment (i.e. with a bag on the front or an experienced skydiver who knows how to arch, keeps their limbs to themselves and that it is in their best interests not to cause any problems) doesn't really prepare you for a live, unpredictable punter on your front. I guess you are right in that it's down to trusting the examiner's judgement. My tandem skills improved by doing tandems. It's like learning to drive a car; you can demonstrate the skill and knowledge enough to be let out on your own but that initial period is risky. You can't beat experience and there really is no substitute for having someone on the front of you? Is there anyone out there who can say they didn't have a tandem early on in their career that they struggled with? If you can, how many jumps did you have when you started to tandem. Might make an interesting poll along with "Do you think you had enough jumps/experience when you started tandeming" Also, how many people out there had people on the front give them a hard time during their course? I've read several posts on here where friends have gone along and made it difficult for the instructor candidates. I have the impression that this doesn't happen in my country a great deal. Another tricky situation. AFF instructors are worked hard on their courses since most examiners are only doing things that they have had real students do to them but I think the risks are different. At the end of the day, there is a hard deck and all the parties are independent. With tandems, you have two parties connected, with the added complications of equipment such as drogue and handles, as well as decision trees. Like with the AFF, you should be able to handle whatever a student can throw at you but I'm not sure the course is the right place to do it. Perhaps some tandem "consolidation" jumps are the answer; once you've proven you can do your drills, controlled instability and tandem terminal and passed your course, then go out with a friend to make life difficult for yourself. Anyone doing this unofficially?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #17 February 1, 2005 QuoteAnyone doing this unofficially? Since I don't know what the course lay-out is nowadays, I'm not sure. It used to be that you did the course, got the rating, made five jumps with licensed skydivers and were let loose at the general public. Expecting the unexpected however, comes from real live confrontations with the unexpected... And then (once 'tandem-zen' A former student of mine, who was a free-style jumper AND a ballet dancer used to be asked a lot by one tandem-examiner to be the passenger for his candidates - since that small girl could throw things at you you would never expect with 'legs where they don't belong' (like one leg stretched out sideways) ... To me it seems like a no-brainer that given the choice of "making a couple of fun rides with your friends" or "it is paid for / have to do them anyway - I might as well get myself trained in the best possible way", smarter candidates would choose the latter... Also, keep in mind the distinction between what is dangerous (throwing the drogue while unstable, get into side-spin on exit) and what is inconvenient (not keeping the heading under the drogue) Like in all other aspects of life, there is some 'on-the-job-training'; It would be nice if f.i. surgeons only were allowed to operate on their own once they had done 15 operations on their own - but that is impossible. The good news is that there is lots of video - it comes with the teritory... Reviewing those video's with a highly experienced TI in order to improve your technique seems like a smart plan. Im confident that this is done almost everywhere... edit: almost caught by the spelling police... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #18 February 8, 2005 QuoteAlso, how many people out there had people on the front give them a hard time during their course? I've read several posts on here where friends have gone along and made it difficult for the instructor candidates. The first two jumps when I went through the course involved perfect students. The examiner put mild screws to me on my no-drogue jump but shaped up when I demonstrated control. I don't do anything particularly bad when I'm out front. The obvious fetal on exit, mild tracking during freefall and/or droguefall (not enough to put us so head low that there's risk of entangling the drogue bridle), and taking them for a few turns in droguefall. In my opinion, you wouldn't want to actually scare the candidates (that could be dangerous). You just want to give them a little taste of potential problems and let real students give them their fill. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #19 February 9, 2005 I believe There needs to be a base jump ## as well as the time in the sport requirement. If you dont have a minimum jump number then all the 20 jump wonders would be the best TI in the world just ask them. The time in the sport helps weed out the 500 in a year skygods who learn it all today and have no practical experience. These 2 in combo are a good start to attaining the skills needed to be a competent TI if the person has what it takes it is now up to the TE to check them off and give them the thumb up. The medical is a joke you could get it with 1 leg and half of a back. My 2 cents. Chris Whitley Vector, Sigma, Strong Jumps 1830 Tandems 830 FF 610 RW 220 Camera 170 Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
overmyhead 0 #20 February 15, 2005 you miss one !!!! xx jumps + skills / pass a stupidity test Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #21 February 15, 2005 Quoteyou miss one !!!! xx jumps + skills / pass a stupidity test Usually the xx jump requirement is already an indication of the stupidity level. If you are really stupid, you will probably not manage to make at least 500 or 1000jumps. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #22 February 15, 2005 Quoteyou miss one !!!! xx jumps + skills / pass a stupidity test The fact that you - with that many jumps and fully aware by now about the thousand things that could go wrong - are willing to give it a try with another living person strapped to you... That IS the stupidity test! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #23 February 18, 2005 Quote The fact that you - with that many jumps and fully aware by now about the thousand things that could go wrong - are willing to give it a try with another living person strapped to you... That IS the stupidity test! Right on Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
