S/L & IAD students position in Cessna 182?

[riggerrob 558]

Where do your static-line/AID students sit in the Cessna 182 just before they climb out?

Most of the DZs that I have worked at had students kneeling - facing forward - by the door, while the instructor knelt with his back to the instrument panel.

I also worked at one DZ where they had students sit with their back to the instrument panel - facing aft -and the instructor kneeling (facing forward). I found it cumbersome sliding the next student past the pilot and I, etc. They never could explain their logic to me, except to say "that's the way we have always done it."
Why?

[Punky_Monkey 0]

When I did my static lines I sat with my back to the instrument panel and the instructor sat facing me. It was kind of a pain if you were not the first one out having to slide up there.

But on the postive side I think I got comfrotable with the "door" a whole lot faster this way since I didn't have a lot of plane between me and the open air when the time for spotting came. All that exposure to the open "door" did wonders for someone like me and a door issue.

Just my 2 cents as a student.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[pilotdave 0]

I'm no instructor and I did AFF, but 2 of my last 3 jumps were IADs, playing student for a couple instructors to get recurrent for the winter. They don't regularly do IAD at my DZ, so this was the first time I've ever even seen an IAD jump.

But they had the students sit up front, back to the panel. Then they had us swing our feet out, onto the step. From their position in the back of the door, they could use their foot to actually guide mine onto the step. Once my feet were out, I turned and grabbed the strut and climbed out.

I did AFF 1 out of a 182 and I remember that the climbout was the hardest part of the whole thing. This way, starting off facing backwards, seemed a lot easier than trying to step out poised like I would for a normal 182 jump.

It was fun, but I'm still glad I did AFF!
Dave

[peek 20]

If I as a JM was kneeling with my back to the dash, I can't imagine not being in the way of the student getting out.

Other JM's less "aware" of the dash could also break things sticking out of the dash with their rigs. This would probably be my biggest concern.

It just seems easier for the student to be sitting with their back to the dash. The JM just leans back a little and is completely out of the way.

Yes, there is absolutely more difficulty getting the next student into postion with the latter. Part of the training must emphasize not moving around until the JM tells you to.

[BIGUN 1,049]

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I also worked at one DZ where they had students sit with their back to the instrument panel - facing aft -and the instructor kneeling (facing forward). I found it cumbersome sliding the next student past the pilot and I, etc. They never could explain their logic to me, except to say "that's the way we have always done it." Why?

I do it this way for two reasons, 1) I can do another complete JMPI on the way up - better, 2) In the event of an emergency, I have better control of the door being right handed and/or in the case of an emergeny exit.

With my back to the instrument panel, I could inadvertantly bump something with my rig and make an otherwise friendly pilot a little torqued.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DeNReN 0]

I am not a instructor. (student with a solo lic.)

My home DZ does IAD not S/L.

We have the JM kneel with back to the IP...on set up for jump run the JM has the student move up for final gear check...student leans forward(to kiss the floor)..for pin check...student back to kneeling upright...JM removes PC from the belly mount pouch and folds the bridel and grips the harness at the students left hip with PC in hand....after spotting the JM signals ready and the student slides right foot to step...left hand to strut....left foot out (crossing over the right)...JM begins to move out with student...student releases death grip from door frame and moves right hand to strut...JM continues to slid out as the student shimmies out the strut for a hanging exit...JM has left arm around strut and still holding onto student as they prepare to release....student is in a good position(hopefully)...JM signals to release....student lets go of strut...JM lets go of PC and student...JM watches deployment and slides back in.....repeat.

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If I as a JM was kneeling with my back to the dash, I can't imagine not being in the way of the student getting out.

Peek although you have infinate more knowlage and experiance than me.....I have seen this method used with several rather large 1st jump students...JM's nore students had any problems..."easy as pie"...would be a good way to describe the climb outs.

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Other JM's less "aware" of the dash could also break things sticking out of the dash with their rigs. This would probably be my biggest concern.

Wouldnt most pilots rather have a JM (experianced skydiver) with there back to the IP rather than a nervous or excited 1st jump student??????(seems the lesser of 2 evils to me)

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With my back to the instrument panel, I could inadvertantly bump something with my rig and make an otherwise friendly pilot a little torqued.

BIGUN as I stated to peek....and I hope you will agree....that a 1st jump student is more likely to "bump" something on the IP than a highly experianced instructor.



As a student I dont have any right to post in this forum or have my oppions respected...I have only witnessed one deployment method...and cannot picture a IAD being done with the student back to IP(S/L sure...can see that)...Please help me learn and describe how a IAD is done with student "back to IP"

Again I bow to superior knowlage and experiance...and humbly ask not to be flamed too bad....but I am with riggerrob and his desire to to gain knowlage on deployment methods as one day I hope to share this sport with others in a more professional manor.

[dterrick 0]

Happy Christmas Rob!

I'm a touch surprised this is even a subject for discussion. One only reads up to page 10 in the CSPA IA manual (part 2.3) before it specifically states " in all cases the instructor is kneeling beside the pilot facing the rear of the aircraft". It's further aknowledged there may be some "minor variations" on climbout technique, but that's as far as "the book" goes on deviations.

A half-season in the JM seat doesn't make me an expert by any means but I know enough to wonder why anyone would deviate so drastically from the established practice... and if the deviations are so good, why we aren't all doing it that way. Maybe it's because it's fairly new and fresh; maybe it was my excellent teachers; every procedure we're taught today has a logical basis. Could these "alternatives" be very old-school procedures leftover from s/l or dynamic exits?

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[sabre97 0]

At my DZ we do IAD. We have both yokes still in the plane. So we have the student sit along side the pilot, with the instructor sitting back to back with the first student out. At about 1500 ft AGL the instructor gets up and checks his gear. Then he checks the students gear. At about 3000 ft AGL we get the student up. Being behind the student you can assist the student to his knees. Once the student is to his knees we remove his pilot chute and tell them " I have your pilot chute." With the pilot chute in your left hand, you check with the pilot for the door. If the pilot said OK, you tell the other students in the plane to protect your handles with your left hand across to the cut away handle. At this point you call door. After taking the door, you transfer the pilot chute to your right hand. After that your put your right foot out on the step and tell the student to stand by. On the stand by command, the student puts their right foot along side your foot and their right hand on the rear door jam and their left hand on a handle we have on the front of the door jam. At this point the student has three points of contact with the plane. With the pilot chute in my right hand , I usually hold the students yoke with my left. When we get over the spot I will instruct the student to climb out and hang, left hand first. We have found that after hanging, the student checks-in. Then we say skydive, and the student looks forward, tilts head back and releases the strut.
We have found that since we have the student check-in, they are remembering the start or the top end of the jump.

[Superfletch 1]

I teach IAD and have my students sit with their back to the IP. #2 is behind the pilot and #3 is behind me with back to rear wall. My students all jump Dolphin Containers with BOC and ROL pockets. When jumping IAD I pack the PC in the ROL pouch. On jump run I ask the student if they are ready to skydive. Once I get a positive response I then reach down with my left hand and remove the PC from the ROL pouch. From there I slip it up behind the student exposing only enough bridal to reach their shoulder where I hold it until the time in which I release it into clean air under the airplane. At this point I take the door from the pilot, observe my spot then open the door. As soon as the door is open I block the door by holding the door frame with my right hand. This helps to keep my students a bit more calm since I am between them and the outside of the plane at this point. I then instruct the student to put their feet out and stop. At this point I want them to reach out with their left hand and grab the strut. Once they do this I release their feet from between my knees and let them swing their feet out onto the step. This ensures that at all times my student has three points of contact with the plane. Hand on strut, butt on floor and feet on step. I can check their pin at this point with my left hand. I then intstruct them to climb all the way and hang. I remove my blocking arm and switch hands with the PC at this point INSIDE the airplane and out of the propwash. The student reaches out with their right hand and grabs the strut. Now with my left hand free I can reach down and grab the back corner of their rig and actually lift them and help them out. This works real good for small girls having trouble pulling themselves around. Once on the step they move to the end where they check back with me (giving me catch up time if I need it). From there they get the affirmative nod where I have them do their cross over and lower themselves into a hanging position. After they exit, I climb back in and shut the door. I have #3 slide over to their left... I scoot to the back of the plane beside #3 and then have #2 slide into place beside the pilot with their back to the IP. #3 then moves into the position #2 previously held and the whole thing starts over... Works very well.

Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher
D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I
Videographer/Photographer

[JYorkster 0]

I have taught both IAD and Static Line, and have used both instructor back to IP and student back to IP. Having seen both in action, now I will only use instructor back to the panel...

Think about a fully loaded 182, and think of CoG when the first student has left. If the instructor is facing forward, he/she will have to move backward to allow student #2 to get into position. Now ALL the weight (2-3 students and instructor) are aft of the pilot. Add an inexperienced pilot trying to build time and you're asking for trouble.
Also, with the instructor facing forward, he/she has less direct control of all the students and is exposing his/her rig to students. He/she is also blocking the door in case of emergency, requiring the instructor to leave with students still in the airplane in order for everyone to exit. I'd prefer to be facing the students and be able to 'verbally encourage' (GO! GO! GO!) them to get out in case of emergency. Certainly, I'm not going to ride the plane in yelling at a student, but I don't think I should be the first one out the door either.

We have put out very large first jump students wearing a very large rig (300 sq ft main) this way with no difficulties for the student getting out.

Just my 2 cents...but ask your pilot which he/she prefers and why.

Rock

[killler 2]

The first thing I need to say is... Flying with the control yoke still installed is asking for trouble... If the aircraft was to pitch over and a body gets pushed against that yoke the pilot has a mess to deal with, Now add in a jumpmaster with his back to the "IP" and you have a nightmare....

The jumpmaster should be kneeing with the students back to the "IP"... The jumpmaster has control of the student and the door... If there is trouble the Jumpmaster can open the door and get the student out and then get the others out... The weight and balance is not a problem when the first student exits and the second student is still sitting with his back to the pilots seat.... The jumpmaster just moves the student to the side and then up to the dash for the next jumprun....

I had a student freeze on the step and had to go out and bring them in.... The things that can go wrong up there are countless....

Killer....

[dropzonefool 0]

My thoughs are....having the student sit with their back to the IP, instructor holding the students feet. The student has to reach out with left hand and grasp the strut, before Instructor releases feet, and then the student can turn and place feet on step.

After first student exits/jumps, instructor reels in SL- Pilot closes door, turns on power and goes around for another pass. When Instructor turns around to face tail/students the one on the(his right) moves forward behind pilot seat lookin forward on knees. The I does a gear check. Student #3 sitting on I left moves right where student #2 was sitting. The I then moves back a little bit where student#3 was, and student #2 moves into position back to IP leading. And so on. That is how we do it. I'm not saying it better or worse, I think both ways have pros and cons.

Bigun, I know you didn't post this but I do not see a problem with the CG's, and a heads up Instructor will realize a new/inexperienced pilot, and at least give a briefing prior to taking up 3 students on a 182.

Also our Video guy sits in the back of the plane and videos the tandem hook up, expresion on face when door is open, then crawls out past the students feet, The T-I briefs the student and helps move the student closer to the pilot seat for this. Once the vidiot is out then the T-I starts with left foot out etc...
The T-I also sits with his back to the IP.
It's only .02 cents worth. Every DZ/Instructor I feel has the right to opperate the way they feel most comfortable and safe.

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[bch7773 0]

our DZ does static line, and we always have the students sitting with back to the instrument panel... it makes the climbout easier for them, as they can just swing their feet out, then grab strut and swing their body out... if they are kneeling, facing the prop, they have to reach out and expose a lot of their body into the prop blast to grab the strut... i would be afraid a lot of first jumpers would slip off.
also, it is much easier for the instructor to spot when they are kneeling facing the front, then facing the tail IMO.
The C.G. concern after the first student exits is valid, but we have never (as far as I know) had a problem with it... i will have to talk to our pilot about this... normally we move the second student up as soon as we can.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[killler 2]

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The C.G. concern after the first student exits is valid, but we have never (as far as I know) had a problem with it... i will have to talk to our pilot about this... normally we move the second student up as soon as we can.

The CG is not a problem in the C-182 class aircraft when the seating is done with the second student sitting with his back to the pilots seat... The jumpmaster's weight is on his knees with is in the normal area of the front seat... The movement of the students always is in the CG envelope... The CG is always moving to nose heavy not the other way... The other thing is the pilot "SHOULD NOT CUT THE POWER WAY BACK" on climbout... The pilot needs to keep from looking at the student and getting involved to the point that the plane departs on him... If you are a jumper and you hear the stall horn, The pilot is not flying the airplane in a safe manner... I never let the Airspeed get under 75mph and like it at 80mph... Thats the way I trained all my pilots to fly and never had a problem.... The "BIG" cut with the stall horn singing is not safe or needed....

The crash in Homestead FL was caused by the pilot cutting the engine way back to help a student in her climb out and then failing to recover the stall.. The student was thrown from the strut in the stall spin and said that Tom (jumpmaster) was pushing the throttle in .... The jumpmaster needs to be on top of things in the aircraft at all times....

Killer.....

[riggerrob 558]

Tangent ...
Reducing power - as a student is climbing out - is largely a psychological game.
None of the pilots do it at Pitt Meadows.

[quinny 0]

Hi Rob!
Long time no see! We have the first student to enter the aircraft to sit on their butt with their back to the pilots seat and their legs straight out. Everyone else then is on their knees facing the IP. The Instructor is on his/her knees facing the tail.

Also someone wrote that there students put there right arm out onto the strut first after getting in the door. I have found that this presents a large surface area to the wind and makes it more difficult for students to climb out. If they put there left hand out onto the strut first, then right foot onto step then right hand then left foot it makes the whole process easier for the student. Climbing out generally seems to be the most intimidating thing for our students.
Would love to hear anyones thoughts....[email]

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[Canuck 0]

I've done hundreds, maybe thousands, of IAD dispatches from the kneeling with back to the IP and student kneeling facing me position and can't imagine any good reason to do it any other way. I'm actually very suprised at the results of this poll. Reasons for why I think it makes the most sense:

1. I trust myself against the IP more than a FJS. They are wearing a much larger and more cumbersome rig, are less aware of where that rig is, and almost always are less familiar with ac controls.

2. From this position I can easily communicate with the pilot, including eye contact, at all times.

3. I can see and communicate, including eye contact, with all my students on the load at all times, even while in the process of climbing out with one.

4. This position gives me really nice access to the step and the strut, my two points of contact/balance during dispatches.

5. It's the least amount of movement for the student during climb-out.

Canuck