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riggerrob

Perfect size for TI?

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What is the perfect size for a tandem instructor at a Cessna DZ?

This question came up when I visited a single-Cessna DZ in Ontario recently.
One of the regular TIs turned to me and said "You're just a little guy."
In the end, I hauled all the biggest students that weekend, out of their narrow-body 182.

At 6 feet tall and 180 pounds, I have never considered myself small.
On the other hand. both of the TIs teasing me stood 6'2" and weighed 220 pounds.
I know a couple of other large, experienced TIs who refuse to jump from Cessnas.

To re-state the question: What is the perfect size for a tandem instructor at a Cessna DZ?

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I am a large Tandem Instructor. I don't like Cessnas, but will gladly do them because it's challenging. As long as the student is not HUGE, and I am cofortable that I can exit safely, I would rather the person got their skydive rather than get sent home disappointed (Cessna tandems usually happen during the week for me, when there are not enough jumpers to fill an Otter).

For those large experienced TMs at your DZ who won't jump a Cessna because they feel it's outside their personal limits, the Chief Instructo/DZO should honor their decision. On the other hand, some of them might benefit from training through the "unknown" by making two or three Cessna tandems with an experienced TM on the front.

IMHO, the "perfect size" is directly related to the flying ability of the Instructor, no matter how many tandems he has. It is also directly related to the choices that the TM makes during a jump. Chuck Blue, who is not a big man, is an exceptional TM and takes very large students with ease. This happens because 1) he is an exceptional belly flyer and completely understands the relationship between body position on exit and the relative wind, 2) he worked his way into it, slowly expanding his personal limits, 3) he doesn't concern himself with controlling the student's body position out the door, instead flying his own body, 4) he flies the exit first, then deploys the drogue.

Generally speaking, a fairly tall TM with lots of surface area and long arms has an advantage. 5'10" to 6'0" makes him very versatile. Body weight between 170 - 190 lbs makes him able to handle a wide variety of students.

Great question!
Arrive Safely

John

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Well, at 6'6" and 245# and do more Cessna's than Otters. Two criteria - 1) they can't be over 200# as me, gear and them = 25#'s less than my reserve max weight, 2) They be somewhat agile and do a couple of door dives with them to see if I'm going to have any "shimmy" out the door issues upstairs that I can correct on the ground.

To me the only perfect size is the one that's right for the student, instructor and rig. I've seen itty bitty females make for as great (and sometimes better due to demeanor) a TI as much as big muscular ones.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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I can't believe that someone would call you "small", Rob. Likewise, I find it fascinating that some big guys think they are better TI's simply due to their greater size and supposed ability to "muscle" a skydive. Narrow body Cessna 182's leave little room for any tandem instructor to get around the pilot, pivot around to the rear, and get out the door. I personally think I have a much easier time in Cessnas than guys your size (and John's size) do. To those who don't know me, I am five foot seven and 155 pounds.

chuck

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I find it fascinating that some big guys think they are better TI's simply due to their greater size and supposed ability to "muscle" a skydive.



Well said. All of my "interesting" exits that began to develop into side spins were small, lightweight, very fit females. It was executing proper procedures that made me successful with those, not any amount of size, muscle, or ego.
Arrive Safely

John

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According to you, I'm "ape sized" but I'm actually 6'1" 255lbs.

The LARGE majority of my tandem jumps have been out of a narrow body 182, I have no problems with it, but I am reasonably flexable so I can get around in the 182 without too many problems.

I feel like my strength gives me an advantage under canopy and in the airplane, but in freefall its all about skill, strength means nothing really.

I feel like with 500-ish tandem jumps I'm starting to figure things out, but I've still got a lot to learn.


If I was going to say a perfect size, I'd say me 20-30lbs lighter.:P
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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To those who don't know me, I am five foot seven , 155 pounds, and have a prehensile tail.



Ah, that is why they call you "The Number One Monkey"

:P

I'm 6' 210# and don't have any trouble out of the 182 or 206. I think the key is flexibility and strength. The lady who rated me is 5'4". She doesn't have a weight limit, but she won't take people who are much above 6'3" cause she can't get her feet to the ground before the passenger every time.

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I think the key is flexibility and strength.



I'd have to add finesse and technique to this also.

Using nothing but strength on tandems will lead to burn out at times.

I'm 5'10 170lbs, and after a few thousand tandems ranging from 85lbs to 275lbs out of a C182, they all have there different techniques for getting out the door.
GREAT preplanning with the student for the exit you wish to do is the KEY! ;)


Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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Narrow body Cessna 182's leave little room for any tandem instructor to get around the pilot, pivot around to the rear, and get out the door.


You can avoid the pivoting bit by boarding the plane backwards. :)(i.e. sit in the plane with the passenger in front of you facing the tail of the plane...)
Other than that, the only issue I have is total weight of the tandempair.
1. Get out
2. Check stability / get stable
3. Throw the drogue.

It's a walk in the park... :)
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I find it fascinating that some big guys think they are better TI's simply due to their greater size and supposed ability to "muscle" a skydive.


"Short people got no reason to live" - Randy Newman :P:P:P

(But, all joking aside, the fact of the matter remains that if you are tall and slender you WILL have more range simply due to the fact that your reach with your limbs {hands/feet} is better, which gives you an advantage when the situation calls for 'counterbalancing'. "Give me a lever that is LONG enough and strong enough plus a place to stand and I can move the earth" - nothing to do with experience, character, etcetera - just physics...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I'd have to add finesse and technique to this also.



Yes. Absolutely.

I have about 200 tandems now, and am finally getting enough experience to be able to finesse things more than muscle them.

The only problem with finesse and technique is they are pretty much only available through experience. A new tandem master will have to have flexibility and strength to get started, and he or she will have to have finesse and technique to stay in the game for any length of time.

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I'm not very large (1,75meters) and I do not like the C182 to do tandems from. Way to much climbing out.
I'm happy my dropzone operates 2 cessna's 206 (with side door).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

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at 5'2 i am small, i work quit often out of Cessnas and islanders, as an i.e. i tell other ti its not the size but the method you use, even at my size i find a cessna tight to jump from but with the correct method for me it is not a problem, its just a matter of finding the best way to exit for your size. i think if you adopt the best technique anybody can tandem.

anyway back to the question whats the best size? well the ti's body should be wide enough to fit between the seat and door, short enough to allow another tandem to sit in front, and the legs should reach the floor when you sit on the toilet:)
one question i get is what tandem is to big for me i always say its two big if i can not land it safely
blue skies
life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

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OK here goes, "size doesn't matter" (that will start a debate i am sure in the wrong direction:P).

But in my opinion; confidence, capability and experience matters.

At 5'8" 180lbs I have jumped a varied size range in the 600 tandems i have done.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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