S/L I question.. training your students to exit

[dubbayab 0]

here is a pic a a sloppy job by the JM. He trainded the student to climb out backwards, and the student got as PC in the face, this resulted in a student cutaway!

[dubbayab 0]

here is a shot of the students right arm caught in the deployment

[dubbayab 0]

here is a shot of the cutaway because the students right arm inapparently released the right toggle.

a bunch of shit happened on this one jump, a question to all I's regardless of method, one slip can cause a lot more than you think

[mark 102]

At different times in my SL-I career I've trained students to hang from the strut, make a poised exit from the step, make a poised exit from the door of a turbine aircraft, and dive out. I'm partial to the hanging exit, but had good reasons for and fair success with the other methods.

It isn't clear from your photos what kind of procedure "climb out backwards" is, or why it may have contributed to the result. Could you describe it with more detail, please?

Mark

[dubbayab 0]

surer mark, when training a student you want to remember the way the airplane is flying, and train them to climb out so that the static line is to there rear. here is a shot for you

I agree C182 struts are the BEST for S/L. I see it far too much when they try to do them from twins. It is time for AFF, lack of trained officials lead to s/l from twins............ at least sit thenm on the floor with feet out and the JM grab thei yoke and turn them in to the relitave wind sorta thing right?.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I don't understand what you are asking here. Are you asking how to have people exit SL from twins? We, out of our otter when we used to do SL and the Cessna was unavailable for some reason, would have them stand in the door just like an AFF student (poising with right foot forward, left foot back, head outside the plane looking at the port-side prop). We always have them hang from the strut of the C-182 with legs extended for both SL and IAD whenever they get used.

[mark 102]

I also still do not understand what "climb out backwards" means. The photos all show a jumper some time after exit. Do you have a photo of the jumper in the door or on the step?

Also, a back-to-the-wind exit is stable if the jumper is de-arched. That remains the method taught at the US Army Airborne School. It works well with civilian equipment, too, except there is no easy transition to freefall.

What method do you teach at your school?

Mark

[riggerrob 558]

I am still not clear what the question was ....

Even the best trained students can panic and do weird things.

For example - many years ago - I watched (from the ground) a girl tumble off the step, grab her deployment sleeve (predecessor to deployment bags) and hold it all the way to the ground. Fortunately her FXC 8000 got scared and opened her reserve.
All the other students in her class performed well.

[Icon134 0]

Not an Instructor but... thought I'd add.

You can train a student to exit several different ways and still end up with a student that jumps out and does something wrong...

I know I've always had problems on hill.

Scott

[mark135 0]

Why do you say the jm had sloppy training? Did you sit in on the training or just getting that idea from the pic?

I can promise you that you can train as well as possible and still have student do backflips, turn sideways, bounce off the step, need to be physically removed from strut, voodoo, hoodoo an all kinda wierd shit. (qoute from capt ron)

Pic is a good argument for direct bag rather than the static line assist that was used.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Agreed. As someone who has taught at dropzones which have used both systems, I am 100% in favor of direct bag for SL.

[coconutmonkey 0]

Need a better description of a 'Back-Out" exit. Like mark and SM1 said, lots o wierd stuff can happen with a student in the door. I'll second (or third) the motion for direct bag s/l.

Hearts & Minds
2 to the Heart-
1 to the Mind-
Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

[Courteney 0]

Hi there,

I'm not an Instructor yet, (maybe end of the year) but am a J/M. Was wondering about that S/L in the frame grab. It's pulling out a pilot chute attached to the bag right? What's the name of this system? And what's the thought behind it?
Btw, we only use the direct bag S/L so don't know any other type.

Cheers,
Courteney.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

That system is called "static line assist" or, in some places "PC assist" and, basically, it is a SL with a closing pin on it which attaches to the bridle with velcro (at every place I have seen use it) below the spring loaded PC. I have heard that some places use 80-test cord to attach the SL to the bridle, but can't confirm that.

Chuck

[riggerrob 558]

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That system is called "static line assist" or, in some places "PC assist" and, basically, it is a SL with a closing pin on it which attaches to the bridle with velcro (at every place I have seen use it) below the spring loaded PC. I have heard that some places use 80-test cord to attach the SL to the bridle, but can't confirm that.

Chuck

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80 pound break cord is the old-school military way.
Most modern PC-assist systems use Velcro.
However, I never liked any version of PC-assist, because it allows students too much time to back loop, barrel roll, etc. and interfer with deployment.

If you insist on using static-lines, then stick with direct-bag as that has the widest margin of error.

[RogerRamjet 0]

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Quote

That system is called "static line assist" or, in some places "PC assist" and, basically, it is a SL with a closing pin on it which attaches to the bridle with velcro (at every place I have seen use it) below the spring loaded PC. I have heard that some places use 80-test cord to attach the SL to the bridle, but can't confirm that.

Chuck

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

80 pound break cord is the old-school military way.
Most modern PC-assist systems use Velcro.
However, I never liked any version of PC-assist, because it allows students too much time to back loop, barrel roll, etc. and interfer with deployment.

If you insist on using static-lines, then stick with direct-bag as that has the widest margin of error.

Widest margin of error.... Agreed and the very reason the military uses it. The jumper can be in pretty much any position and the system still deploys.

I was the rigger at Z-Hills for two years in 1973-74 where we used the direct bag T-10 system. At the time, we were one of the busiest (if not the busiest) student training DZ's in the world. I made my entire living packing T-10's back then. We had 0 (zero) malfunctions during that time on static line drops from our 180, 182, and sometimes our C-47. I jumped there regularly for the rest of my 8 year career and to my knowledge they never had a S/L malfunction. Not saying it's 100%, but it's a lot closer than PC assist is.

In fact, the only S/L (gear related) problem I remember happening there was when the type-8 webbing securing the D-Ring to the pilot's seat broke and the static line followed the student (me) out of the plane.... The jump master (who changed his method of dropping S/L after that to holding a byte of the static line) clearly saw me going for the reserve handle when the main finally deployed on it's own. He cleared me for freefall on my next jump :)

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[dubbayab 0]

Back in this!.....been locked out for a while from this forum for comments I made to TK Hays in another thread. BY the way it is locked also.

Somewhere, and I not going to bother looking it up to give you a page # it state the Instructor should never let the load path of the static line cross his body, arm, etc, and also for the students body parts.

Everyone is asking about "backwards" and C-182 hanging strut exits........
So lets do this with a C-182....
Where I'm from the Student sits on the floor with his back/rig to the instrument panel. When the door is opened he turns to his left, and puts his feet on the step/hand on the strut.
If for some reason the Instructor allows him to pop up turn around and exit over his right sholder the already hooked up S/L will be across his body/stomach. Then when he let go of the strut the deployment will follow the S/L across his body and the result is in the pictures.

In other responses were talking about direct bag deployments. I have never conducted any but am opposed to them because Pilot chute assist results in slower, more on heading deployments than direct bag. Direct bag deployments usualy lead to line twist, and the worst pilot chute assist deployment usualy isn't as severe to the worst direct bag deployment by far! Also my school teaches the student not to grab the deploying pilotchute, with causes and results aftermath senerico's. There was a man go in a while back cause he grabbed his deploying pilot chute. He remained on his back till his FXC fired to which he grabbed that pilot chute also. Wasen't at my DZ, just a story, not sure it happened at!

WB

[riggerrob 558]

In other responses were talking about direct bag deployments. I have never conducted any but am opposed to them because Pilot chute assist results in slower, more on heading deployments than direct bag. Direct bag deployments usually lead to line twist, and the worst pilot chute assist deployment usually isn't as severe to the worst direct bag deployment by far! Also my school teaches the student not to grab the deploying pilotchute, with causes and results aftermath scenario's. There was a man go in a while back cause he grabbed his deploying pilot chute. He remained on his back till his FXC fired to which he grabbed that pilot chute also. Wasn't at my DZ, just a story, not sure it happened at!

WB

[Liemberg 0]

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I see line twists as the lesser of 2 evils.

A fatality more than 20 years ago at my first club comes to mind. There, the student grabed the pilot and held on, lines from the main got around the reserve container, FXC fired, reserve didn't deploy, end of story.
Should not have happened.
Could not have happened.
Highly unlikely.
Etched in my memory for the rest of my days...

So yes, from first hand experience, I'll trade line twists on 50% of all student static line jumps for the avoidance of just one such an event any time.

Since that time I have seen bruises in the arm pit, a fractured elbow and even a dislocated shoulder(!) all resulting from students exiting 'different from what had been teached' but at least they started with a huge canopy over their head. With a few line twists - granted - but on a 'student-tug-boat' that is something different than on our own highly loaded eliptical...

And (unbelievable but true) once we even had a student panic to such an extent that he landed backward with a line twist on his main canopy...
Don't know if he was Irish but he got away without so much as a scratch!!!

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The less you mention bad behaviour, the less likely students will behave badly.

In my more cynical moods I sometimes doubt that there is a relationship between what I teach and what the students actually do at 'le moment supreme'. Maybe this makes me a lesser teacher than I would like to be but I dont want to take full (moral) responsability for the 'funky' exits on a first jump course, even if they are as 'few and far between' as they are nowadays. Mentioning 'bad behaviour' can not be avoided there, if not for anything else than getting their attention ("You JUMP - that is something different from closing your eyes, letting go of the plane and hope for the best. If you can not cope with that, there is always tandem!")
We even go so far as to show a video of a static line student who ends up with his feet in the lines on deployment.
("Now that I got your undevided attention - meet the drill sergeant..." )

Your concept of 'not mentioning bad behavior' may be a good starting point, but there is a bit more to it, I'm afraid. You DO teach about trees and water and dangerous obstacles during FJC, dont you?
Well, there you go...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[riggerrob 558]

Your concept of 'not mentioning bad behavior' may be a good starting point, but there is a bit more to it, I'm afraid. You DO teach about trees and water and dangerous obstacles during FJC, don't you?
Well, there you go...

[Liemberg 0]

We do likewise, but nevertheless occasionally end up with students who land on top of obstacles, in water etcetera.

I once had a student who was exactly where she was supposed to be at 300 feet. Suddenly she made a 180 degree turn and landed with the wind, spectacularly crashing. Dumb luck caused her not to hurt herself (other than a few bruises). I asked her what she had been thinking.

"I saw the parachutes lying there (she was the third one to land) and was afraid I would land on top of one"
"So?..."
"You told us not to step on or walk over the parachutes..."

And indeed, in the hangar I HAD told her not to step on or walk over the parachutes...

Had another student that ended up over the (empty) visiting airplanes parking area.
He made a sharp turn to avoid the 'forbidden' area and cracked a vertebrate on landing...

So, in the heath of the moment selective hearing may surface and all our wise words and clever emphasis may go down the drain. Apparently sometimes we are teaching the 'mentally challenged' and unfortunately they don't have a sticker on their forehead...

(Which is why - back on topic - you shouldn't give them a pilot chute to grab in the first place...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[mark135 0]

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If for some reason the Instructor allows him to pop up turn around and exit over his right sholder the already hooked up S/L will be across his body/stomach. Then when he let go of the strut the deployment will follow the S/L across his body and the result is in the pictures.

Not sure how this is even possible unless the j/m is in back sleeping.

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opposed to them because Pilot chute assist results in slower, more on heading deployments than direct bag

Therein lies the problem: slower deployment.

students tend to panic when there isnt a parachute over thier heads. the faster it opens the better.

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Direct bag deployments usualy lead to line twist

OH NO!!!!!!!!! line twists on a manta is such a horrible thing!

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the worst pilot chute assist deployment usualy isn't as severe to the worst direct bag deployment by far!

How ya figure?

The things you list as a pro to the pc assist are in reality cons.
personally I can't think of a single reason to use pc assist. not to say there isnt, I just can't think of one.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[mjosparky 3]

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Back in this!.....been locked out for a while from this forum for comments I made to TK Hays in another thread. BY the way it is locked also.

I think you were banned for an un-cool pole you started and several personal attacks.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dubbayab 0]

>>I think you were banned for an un-cool pole you started and several personal attacks. <<


if anyone deserves it you do!

[riggerrob 558]

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>>I think you were banned for an un-cool pole you started and several personal attacks. <<


if anyone deserves it you do!

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Gentlemen!
Gentlemen!
Let's keep our tone civil in these forums.
Please?