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livendive

Head gear on AFF jumps

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As a new AFF-I, I'm mostly relying on what I learned in the course until I have enough experience to form my own opinions. One of the things I learned in the course was that we should wear open-face helmets and clear goggles to help put our students "at ease" in the air. Since I don't own an open-face hard helmet, I've just been wearing a frap hat, but a couple weeks ago was forced to rethink this position.

I was main side on a Level 2 at another DZ. Free arming, skydive was going well, till the reserve side had a little "issue"...lost the harness grip, grabbed the student's wrist, and then sank out, flipping the student onto his back underneath me. I picked up my arm grip & shook the student out onto his belly and ~1/4 second later the student decided that was enough freefall for him. With no wave-off he reached and pulled, while I was still holding both grips, making sure we were stable, and looking for the other I. Well this was a pretty good-sized (220 lbs), reasonably muscled student and he clocked me hard on the pull...and I mean HARD. He really rang my bell, and I'm still having some trouble chewing. Anyhow, it took me approximately 1 second of shaking it off to realize what had hit me, and then of course I saw his bridle wrapped under my right arm. I released with that arm and he had an otherwise normal deployment (minus that second delay) with me riding through.

That gets me to the point of this post. Given how hard that hit was, I've worn a full-face on each AFF jump I've done since, and I'm curious where this practice falls in public (other AFF-I) perception. So what do you wear on AFF jumps?

Other notes about that jump:
1 - I'm really glad I don't have a "glass chin"
2 - I really should buy an AAD for AFF jumps (hmmm...birdman suit...CYPRES...birdman suit...CYPRES...I need to make more money!)

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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Lets think about the signal for legs out on a release dive -- tongue out -- kind of hard to see thru a full face helmet and hard to hand signal if your tracking after them. You will get great response from a big smile or verbal OK that your student can read from your lips--this can only be done with an open face helmet

As for the AAD issue hmm... my life...a wingsuit

I am pro life on this issue - i won't do an AFF with out a cypres there are to many things that are not 100% in your control - in time you will learn to duck the thow as most try to knock your block off

edit to add It would be nice to trust that the reserve AFFI isn't going to do something stupid!


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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Lets think about the signal for legs out on a release dive -- tongue out -- kind of hard to see thru a full face helmet and hard to hand signal if your tracking after them.


If you are behind them (tracking after them), sticking your tongue out isn't going to help either, you will have to catch them, redock and give a hand signal.

I wear a full face helmet on AFF and always will. It was a "HOT TIP" by my course director.
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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When I started using a full face on Pff jumps about five years ago I got a bit of grief from our then chief instructor. The big disadvantage I have found has been when the student is spotting and they need a nudge to make a decision. Trying to talk, even with the visor up (Z1) tends to produce confusion and delay.
Ever since Phillip Ludwig got his nose broken by a student the aforementioned CI uses his full face.

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If you are behind them (tracking after them), sticking your tongue out isn't going to help either, you will have to catch them, redock and give a hand signal



Maybe I am wrong but why would you even want to give the legs out signal if the legs are so far out that you are having to chase the student from behind because they are in a track! Try legs in or legs up you should get a better response.

The only time you give legs out is in a back slide position if this is the case you are chasing them down face to face!

To each his own on what you wear - I see many benefits to the student with an open face I see very few benefits to me wearing a full face. I feel I can protect myself as AFF is very slow pace at this point and time--it didn't used to be-it was a blurr


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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If you are behind them (tracking after them), sticking your tongue out isn't going to help either, you will have to catch them, redock and give a hand signal.

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The only time you give legs out is in a back slide position if this is the case you are chasing them down face to face!



What he said...

I will always wear an open faced helmet (currently a frap) for AFF dives. I have been told countless times by countless students how much more relaxed they feel when they see my goofy grin during their dives. As far as protection, I treat every AFF student like I treat tandem students, they are trying to kill me and I need to do everything I can to ensure them a safe and fun time while they are.
Hope this helps...
Miami

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Full face.

Not many people will see a "tounge out" signal anyway.



I don't even teach a tongue out signal during AFF. When they get off student status and start doing RW, I teach that the tongue out means "arch harder, let's speed this thing up". During AFF (or any other student progression), if I ever find a student who can backslide so hard that I have to put my arms all the way back to keep up with them, I'm going to redock regardless. So far in my career, everyone's backslide has been sufficiently slow that I've been able to keep up with a driving "mantis" type position that allows me to still give hand signals right next to my collar bone or just outboard of my nipple.

Note: spiralling after an upside down spinning "student" is an entirely different story. ;)

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I'm not an AFFI (yet) but I wear a full face (Z1) on most jumps. A few months ago I was kicked in the jaw on exit. This happened even though I had the helmet on. The jumpers foot managed to hit directly under my chin where the helmet did not cover. I was dazed for a second and later experienced difficulty closing my jaw as you described.

Although I think a full face makes me safer, I found out that it doesn't completely protect you.

Rock

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While I too have been absolutely clocked in the face by students at pull time, I will never wear a full-face helmet on any student dive. At pull time on regularly-flowing skydives I rotate myself back beside the student and make sure my head is turned and out of the way. The ability to holler at a student to get him in the right position in the door, prompt him to start his hotel check verbally, then (in freefall) holler in his ear to "arch" (or pull or whatever else) when he fails to respond to hand and arm signals are more than enough reason to stay open face. On release dives when you are flying out front, the ability for the student to see you mouthing commands as you are simultaneously giving hand signals really helps too. At Raeford we are required to wear hard helmets when we are working (tandem and AFF) and we are also required to have CYPRES equipped rigs for AFF.

Chuck

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Jump what best fits your teaching style.....

If you like to smile or YELL at the students and expect then to read your lips, rather then hand signals.
Open face.

If you can communicate with your hands good, like a thumbs up for when they are doing good, or be able to track forward with the legs out signal where they can see it, or shake them for an arch when you can't release one hand, and you feel the need to protect your chin?
Full face with no face shield and goggles works fine.

Having what you need to possibly save your own ASS is what is BEST for the Instructor.
And with a knocked out Instructor, what good are you to a student?

And I can not say this enough to new AFF Instructors,
GET A F**KIN CYPRESS!!!!

I have seen an AFF Instructor on a Cat C, ON VIDEO, sit back and watch an AFF student of his spin so fast, and he continued to let him spin from the moment he wasn't able to hang on any longer, which was about 5 seconds after exit, until the student finally pulled himself at 3000ft, and probably would have just watched until his student Cyress fired IMO.
To top it off, after that ,on video, it shows him fly over to the camera man and high 5 him with a BIG grin on his face.

After he landed he told everyone to come watch the video and when I asked him why he didn't try and stop the spin, his reply was, "I dont have a Cypres and wasn't going to take the chance of getting knocked out!"

As much as I'd like to see you in a wingsuit, buy a Cypres!

Be safe.
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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Here is my take on this...I have always worn a fullface helmet on AFF jumps for these reasons: 1)My safety 2)Its just what I am comfortable with.

I think that a fullface can be used effectively if you teach the student what to expect ahead of time. For example, we dont teach the toungue out signal, instead we brief the students on a Cat C, for instance, "what do you think happened if you see both of your instructors out in front of you?" Answer from the student: I am going backwards? so we then ask them what makes that happen and how can you fix that??? So we are getting them thinking early on and I have never (knock on wood) had to get in a full track (Merlin CompSuit) to get to a student, so driving towards them while giving a legs out signal isnt typically a problem. If they are sliding so quickly then typically they are going to be sitting upright to the point of flipping over...needing a redock anyways.

As far as spotting...I will usually give them a briefing on how to spot on the ground and then I will have them just take a look out of the plane to see where we are getting out and then have them tell me where we were when we get back down as an introduction. When I have them pick the spot...I have them tell me where we should be getting out of the plane while we are on the ground according to todays winds. Then while we are up in the plane, I have them stick their head out and then look to me and give me a thumbs up or a nod that they think that they are in a good spot. I will either agree or disagree and give them a wait signal and then talk about it later.

The other thing is that students can see a smile through a helmet...they can also see your eyes light up. NonVerbal communication is just as, if not more, important than verbal communication.

Point being: A fullface isnt a problem if you set the expectations ahead of time:)
The other thing in the AFF course is that they tell you to dress for success. Some AFF Is have to learn to compensate for not dressing for success. But that is a whole different discussion. I see the benefits of a open face, but I dont think that they outweigh safety in my opinion. An openface helmet in the air or in the A/C doesnt substitute for a comprehensive briefing on the ground.

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If you are behind them (tracking after them), sticking your tongue out isn't going to help either, you will have to catch them, redock and give a hand signal



Maybe I am wrong but why would you even want to give the legs out signal if the legs are so far out that you are having to chase the student from behind because they are in a track! Try legs in or legs up you should get a better response.

The only time you give legs out is in a back slide position if this is the case you are chasing them down face to face!



In your first reply it appeared you stated you were chasing the student down which I assumed you were behind them giving them sticking your tongue out, which wouldn't fix the problem even if they could see you.
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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I used to wear a full face helmet, but I now just wear a hard helmet. but I've also seen how much a big smile:ph34r:can help a student relax. I too have been clocked in the jaw and learned that I need to watch because you never know what the students are gonna do. I have also made it my rule that I will never jump without a cypress on AFF jumps, or jumps with more than just myself because that one jump with out it could be the one you need it on.
If God wanted man to stay on the ground.
He would of put roots on them instead of feet.
loving life
GO-N-UP

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***Other notes about that jump:
1 - I'm really glad I don't have a "glass chin"
2 - I really should buy an AAD for AFF jumps (hmmm...birdman suit...CYPRES...birdman suit...CYPRES...I need to make more money!)

Blues,
Dave

***

so what is your limit as far as a K.O. goes? sounds like it was a glancing blow.....enough to disorient you for a few seconds? what if it was a knock-out blow? without a cypres you might hit the ground.....lights out. I agree that a cypres will not guarantee whether you live, but landing unconcious "with" a parachute is a better option.
Neither myself or Bobby had a cypres on one ill-fated AFF jump. bobby followed a student down. hers fired his didn't......I now have a cypres.
Stay Safe, glad your OK.
Jim Oke
The ground always, remembers where you are!

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2 - I really should buy an AAD for AFF jumps (hmmm...birdman suit...CYPRES...birdman suit...CYPRES...I need to make more money!)



I hope that is a joke, or I question your ability to teach this sport. :S

Another point to consider. If the other JM falles off, where he is should not be your main concern. As you found out, it's that unpredictable beast in your hands that should have your focus.

Welcome to the jungle, baby!


....p.s. I wear and aviator and clear Flex-Z goggles.

.....p.p.s. Expect a few fat lips during the learning curve. And a few more every now and then just as a reminder.;)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

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2 - I really should buy an AAD for AFF jumps (hmmm...birdman suit...CYPRES...birdman suit...CYPRES...I need to make more money!)



I hope that is a joke, or I question your ability to teach this sport. :S



Well, it was mostly a joke. Still, I don't see how the presence or lack of a device affects my ability to teach.

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Another point to consider. If the other JM falles off, where he is should not be your main concern. As you found out, it's that unpredictable beast in your hands that should have your focus.



Yeah, I understand that. It was just an odd (and very brief) moment. Stabilizing the student while wondering how the f&ck that just happened. I know I should be prepared for the unexpected, but got caught off guard. My bad.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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so what is your limit as far as a K.O. goes? sounds like it was a glancing blow.....enough to disorient you for a few seconds? what if it was a knock-out blow? without a cypres you might hit the ground.....lights out. I agree that a cypres will not guarantee whether you live, but landing unconcious "with" a parachute is a better option.



It was no glancing blow...it probably would have been a knockout punch for some people. Like I said, I'm still having difficulty chewing a couple weeks later. Still, your point is valid. An AAD is a sensible device for AFF jumps.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I hope that is a joke, or I question your ability to teach this sport.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, it was mostly a joke. Still, I don't see how the presence or lack of a device affects my ability to teach.



It's not the presence or lack of a device that concerns me. It's your decision making ability.

I read it as a joke. I'm just hopin' I'm right.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

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