0
skydived19006

Coach rating with Static Line/IAD Progression

Recommended Posts

Most of the “Coach” responses I’ve seen posted here are with AFF training in mind. If you say that a Coach can only participate in the F, G, and H, with the Static Line progression that amounts to the last 6 skydives of 30 (5 static line, 25 free falls)

Look at the BSR 2-1-E-4 (c)

c. All students must jump under the direct supervision of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until demonstrating stability and heading control prior to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation. [E]

If this is the criteria, in a Static Line Progression once a student complies with this requirement a Coach could start working with them (under an Instructors supervision). The ISP may specify when these maneuvers are “typically” done, but I see no reason why they couldn’t be worked in at an earlier stage of the training.

Comments...

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The categories work roughly like this:

Cat A: Intro - 2 s/l jumps
Cat B: PRCPs
Cat C: First freefall (5 sec delay), two 10-second delays. Goals: hover control, solo pull
Cat D: Turns
Cat E: Recovery from instability

To put intentional disorienting maneuvers in earlier than Cat E would mean including them before turn training was complete. I don't think you intend that.

Could you elaborate more on what you had in mind?

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.. I'm a s/l I . If a student took all 5 of the first set of static line jumps they would have 0 freefall time. The mistake you are making is.... even though those s/l jumps do not count as free fall jumps they still count as catogory advancement. a s/l jumper student could be cleared as soon as 8-10 jumps and start working wiht a USPA coach. They have to demonstrat stability after 5 seconds of an intentional instability move and do not break the hard deck, front flip.etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's my thought, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

If you can get your coaches rating, is it pretty safe to assume that you could most likely pass a SL/IAD course once the minimums were met? (Minimum number of coach jumps, teaching, etc).
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes if you can get your coach you more than likely be able to pass the Instructors test. S/l or Tandem, AFF. We all take the same Instructor test, 25 questions. Then we take the method specific portion 25 questions. Unless it has changed.

I would be cautious about comparing a coach to a S/L-IAD instructor. OR any other Instructor.:)
I have noticed a lot of the general community is that the Coach is a NEW AND IMPROVED JUMPMASTER. Let's let the coach teach the entire FJC-packup all the Student gear(including rigging the staticline) spot, put out the students, debrief, and sign the log book. Everything, right? Form A-H

I have also seen a lot of mistakes by some coach's It wasen't entirly their fault, They should have taken the responsibility and stated when asked " I'm not raited to do that" in stead of "OK- I'll do it"
Mis-routed Tandem closing pins, misrouted droug release,- Forgot to connect the Static line assist, Static lines connected to seat belts, students put out in clouds can't find the DZ. and my favorite... Student container open, deployment while hanging on the strut.
I told the S&TA very calmly, in a phone conversation, informed him of what was going on, an that I was concerned. He replied "Everything will be ok, no one got hurt". Nothing has changed, so my guess is that BSR got waivered. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Forgot to connect the static line assist, static lines connected to seat belts, students put out in clouds can't find the DZ. and my favorite... student container open, deployment while hanging on the strut.



In almost 25 years as a static line instructor, I've seen all of these done, some more than once, always by a static line instructor, never by a static line jumpmaster (when there was such a thing) or coach. My personal favorite: instructor fell out of the airplane, leaving his static-line student hanging on the strut.:D

Coaches teaching the FJC? A coach may teach the generic portions of an FJC, which means 90% of a static-line FJC: everything except "Put your feet out, climb out, look up and go!" It isn't hard to teach a prospective rating holder how to teach static-line exits. I agree it's a BSR violation for a Coach to teach exits to students. Whether it's a safety issue depends on the individual teacher, not the rating he or she holds.

Coaches packing student gear and rigging static lines? You are right -- coaches shouldn't be doing that. Neither should Instructors. There is nothing in any Instructor Certification Course that authorizes Instructors to pack student gear or rig static lines. If you are doing that without a rigger ticket or the direct supervision of a rigger, you are in violation of FAR 105.43(a), which is legally more serious than a BSR violation.

Coaches spotting? They teach the canopy control portion of the FJC, and they supervise Cat F/G/H students spotting, so they're capable.

Coaches dispatching static-line progression students (on static line or freefall)? There are some static line handling skills that every new static line handler needs to learn, but that's true whether they have 50 jumps, 100, 200, or 500. As for observation skills, a coach able to observe student body position on a Cat F/G/H skydive is certainly able to observe a student's body position on a short delay while the coach remains in the aircraft. Again, I agree that it is a BSR violation for a coach to put out Cat A/B/C/D/E students, but whether it is a safety issue depends on the individual, not the rating.

Coaches debriefing? They can debrief a Cat F/G/H jump, all of which have more going on than a static-line Cat A/B/C.

It wasn't so long ago that a 100-jump C-license holder could put out static-line students at any point in their progression. From a safety standpoint, what's changed?

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, no. An instructor may not assemble or pack for anyone except himself or herself.

FAR 105.43(a) (reprinted in SIM Section 9-1):
"The main parachute must have been packed ... by a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with the parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger."

Also FAR 105.47(b):
"No person may attach an assist device ... to any main parachute unless that person is a certificated parachute rigger or that person makes the next parachute jump with that parachute."

Check out FAR 105.47(a)(2) while you're at it. When was the last time you saw this checked?

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It wasn't so long ago that a 100-jump C-license holder could put out static-line students at any point in their progression. From a safety standpoint, what's changed?



Well a fatality in Texas about a year and a half ago happened.

SL progession, women was on 5 second delays and had 23 jumps (bing bing, warning sirens should be going off), The non-rated JM was JMing because the boyfriend DZO said it was ok. She had about 120 jumps and was a total skygod, a bitch about it as well, she could learn nuthing from no one, even her 4000 jump boyfriend.

Anyways, did she review emergancy proceedures before the jump? NOPE.

What did the student do?

Chopped linetwists at about 400ft. The RSL pulled the reserve pin, but there wasn't enough canopy out to save that poor lady.


Would a rated JM have changed that scenerio? Well, not necissarly, but a rated JM might have been worried about such a slow progressing student and spent extra time on emergancy proceedures or even told the student that they shouldn't skydive.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Touche. I should have said "100-jump C-license holder with a Jumpmaster rating."

The original thread started by asking about a Coach performing the duties of a static-line Instructor. Your example, though sobering, doesn't address this issue. I do agree with you on this: an individual who has earned an instructional rating is more likely to be in tune with the safety and training requirements of students.

The key for any new rating holder is the same as the key for skydivers at all levels: adequate, tactful supervision. It is morally wrong to fail to supervise new instructors as they begin to exercise their new privileges, just as it is morally wrong to allow newly-minted "A" license holders to jump in conditions which exceed their abilities. If the DZO allowed a non-rated or newly-rated Coach or Instructor to perform duties without supervision, he bears a large part of the responsibility for the consequences.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How difficult is it for a person currently holding a S/L I to get additional raiting of IAD?
Do you have to retake a whole course? Or can an i/e give it to you one on one?

I think there are only 4 different questions on the test, and 2 practical jumps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's a link to the SL/IAD Proficiency Card. You have to do the items without a star, but SL and IAD are similar enough that if you have one rating, you should be able to add the other rating in a very busy half-day or so.

Check out the exact requirements for course directors and candidates in IRM Essentials.The course director has to have been an IAD Instructor for at least three years, and put out at least 100 students, plus some other small stuff. There is no minimum course size, so one-on-one is okay.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If the DZO allowed a non-rated or newly-rated Coach or Instructor to perform duties without supervision, he bears a large part of the responsibility for the consequences.

_________________________________________________

The SIM clearly states this and any lawyer that can read will utilize this to the ultimate demise of the DZO, the S&TA, the pilot, the A/C maintenance people, the airport authority, the initial instructor, and anyone else breathing at the time of an incident. It just makes no sense to cut corners and save costs, even in the abscence of qualified people to put students out of the plane. It cannot be that hard to use a telephone. Direct supervision also means the supervisor is in the A/C or in the class. NOT just in the john or next door. Drop Zones need a comprehensive plan that includes all of their coaches and instructors that clearly supports and follows the guidelines set forth by USPA. A plan that puts the instructors and coaches in charge of contacting students, arranging continuing training and openly recognizing and praising students in their progression. The plan should also encourage those who think they might wish to become coaches or instructors, to work hand in hand with current staff and learn first hand, safe student practices. This also helps to keep coaches and instructors current in their teaching. Coaches should be encouraged to teach as often as possible, not simply overlooked or replaced by non-rated people. The best way to truly understand skydiving is to teach it. I have learned tons of great teaching techniques by simply watching other teachers in class. This plan will also give "energy" to the DZ and to all involved and it would inspire those who observe it in action. Everyone wins.
"It's very important at this point that you don't simply become a passenger." Flight instructor Dennis Anderson speaking about life and crosswind landings.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Direct supervision also means the supervisor is in the A/C or in the class. NOT just in the john or next door.



As I understand it if a Coach is "working" at all, it’s all under the "supervision" of an Instructor rated in the method (ie. Static line instructor can’t go out and do a “harness hold jump” with a student who’s having stability problems). I didn't know that the Instructor had to be on the airplane with the Coach. I thought that the Instructor was to review the students log book, reference the SIM/ISP as to what the student should be doing, review the oral questions if that had not been done (the oral quizzes should be noted in the student’s log book as well) (or maybe let the Coach review the oral quiz), consult with the Coach and student with regard to the jump freefall, and canopy progression. Coach goes and does the jump (instructor not in the Airplane). Get back with the Instructor after the jump to debrief, and sign off the log book.
Is this generally what happens? I'm of the impression that a lot of the ISP is often disregarded, especially the oral quiz which is to be given at some point in each and every section before proceeding to the next. I've been around a lot longer than the ISP, and I've personally never seen every "t" crossed, and every "i" dotted.
As for a Coach conducting a FJC, they can do everything except the “method specific”, or “the generic portion”. It has been stated that that is in a SL training method, everything except the exit, and static line handling.

Comments?
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>>>As I understand it if a Coach is "working" at all, it’s all under the "supervision" of an Instructor rated in the method (ie. Static line instructor can’t go out and do a “harness hold jump” with a student who’s having stability problems).
------------------------------------------------------------
A coach can do anything under the dirrect supervision of an Instructor raited in that meathod, present, and attentive to the coach. an example would be to put a Tandem student in their harness in the presence of an T-I, and then have the T-I check it. A coach can only make jumps with students in the cat. F,G,H. A coach can make gripped exits with students in these catogory also. These jumps are mostly learning tracking, floater exit positon's, Diveing exits, and how to swoop into a formation. A coach can fill out a logbook for these jumps, but the A license proficiency card requires a I to sign off.

The term "harness hold" to me means AFF. OR that an AFF-I is going to pull the student out. How ever if there is a student who has been cleared for freefall self supervision, (usually AFF-7 compleated) Any Instructor may take gripped exits with the student, but only an AFF-I may pull a student who has gotten in trouble.

If a DZ staff isn't keeping up the Students A license Proficience card I believe it would be harder to make the distinction from catagory to catogory, so then how does the staff know when a coach may take over the student training..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jumpmaster...... What was a jumpmaster's duities in regards to S/L- IAD? We are all aware that the USPA grandfathered all JM to I's. I know that JM had to take a course called the BIC. I was wondering because I have seen alot of JM conducting a class, and conducting S/L jumps, before the coach was created.
DID the JM have more duties? or Less restrictions on there raiting than Coach's have now?
How would the equation read...
JM=coach, JM>coach, JM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A static line jumpmaster might have earned his or her rating by attending a Jumpmaster Certification Course, similar to an ICC, but oriented to jumpmaster duties. A jumpmaster could do everything an instructor could do except teach the First Jump Course and authorize students to advance to longer delays. In practice, jumpmasters would tell their supervising instructors that the student should go to longer delays and instructors would just rubber-stamp the recommendation.

In particular, a 100-jump newly-rated Static Line Jumpmaster could take up a load of students who'd just completed their FJC. The jumpmaster would organize the load, handle static lines, spot, observe, debrief, and sign log books.

There was no freefall skill demonstration required for the rating.

Since there was no restriction placed on who could jump with a student "clear to self-jumpmaster," jumpmasters (who might not be able to fall stable since that wasn't a requirement for the rating) could jump with students at any stage of their training.

Bottom line:
A coach may teach almost all of a Static Line FJC; a jumpmaster was permitted to teach none.
A coach may not jump with anyone in Cat A-E; a jumpmaster was allowed to instruct at every level of student traiing.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK thanks for clearing that up, I was never a jumpmaster, I started at coach.

When I was a student I would here the term's Tandem Jumpmaster, or AFF jumpmaster associated with individuals whom I thought were Instructors. They were all surprised when they received their new mebership cards, and were bumped up to Instructors.

Thoes who were already I's had #'s like I-98....They said they only had to use their D# now instead of their I #.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Direct supervision also means the supervisor is in the A/C or in the class. NOT just in the john or next door.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As I understand it if a Coach is "working" at all, it’s all under the "supervision" of an Instructor rated in the method



There is a defined difference between supervision and direct supervision. A coach is always working under the supervision of an Instructor. Supervision is available, Direct supervision is right there watching. (In a nutshell).


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Back in the good-old-days, USPA Instructors taught the first jump course and made major decisions, like when a student was allowed to do their first freefall (static-line progression).
Old-school jumpmasters did most of that, but needed an "I" to supervise (sitting in classroom) them teaching the FJC and approve first FF decisions.
Coach was a vague term before Skydive U and USPA started issuing coach ratings. Anyone could hang out a "coach" shingle. Quality of coaching varied widely. Hee!
Hee!

Circa 1980, CSPA started calling old-school jumpmasters "Instructor A" and old-school instructors "Instructor B." This was more of a legal definition as both of them worked with high-risk first-jump students.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does it seem ironic to anyone else that as an I we teach the life saving skills. I's tend to be more skilled in skydiving and for obvious reasons bust work with beginner students (AFF may have to catch students, get them stable, save their life, etc.). Once a student has these basic skills, we pass them to coaches. The coaches, often less skilled, teach them more how to skydive (take grips, fly with others, track, etc.)

The program works, I just think it is a bit ironic that the more skilled are teaching the beginning skills and the beginning instructors (coach) are teaching the more advanced skills. I understand the why's, I just think it is kind of funny.


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes it seem's ironic, however the student will soon be jumping with your upjumpers who are not I's or coaches.;) They will not be with an I for their entire jumping carrer. With the coach's they are learning how to conduct themself safely with others or in groups.

With the beginning, the Instructor is training them to save their life on the skydive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0