STRONG vs SIGMA vs VECTOR vs ECLIPSE TANDEM RIGS

[Hooknswoop 19]

The canopies are close. The diferences are just prefences. Toggle pressure, turn rate, etc. Ir eally like not having any brake settings on the Icarus. Releasing the brakes on Sigmas can be 'troublesome'. I always got them released though.

Derek

[billbooth 10]

I think that "zero" stretch lines are a bad idea on tandem canopies. An unstable, 170 mph opening could be fatal with no stretch lines...especially if the passenger is an 85 year old grandmother. (4 people have died from opening shocks on solo rigs with "zero" stretch lines in the past two years.) It could even damage the harness. (Parachutes de France had two harness failures with Microlined tandem canopies.)

Tandem rigs are commercial vehicles, so comfort and safety for the passenger is our number one consideration. A smaller, lighter rig will always be secondary. "Zero" stretch lines are perfectly fine if you have a canopy which never opens hard...no matter what you do to it. However, I know of no such canopy.

[skydived19006 4]

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I think that "zero" stretch lines are a bad idea on tandem canopies. An unstable, 170 mph opening could be fatal with no stretch lines...especially if the passenger is an 85 year old grandmother. (4 people have died from opening shocks on solo rigs with "zero" stretch lines in the past two years.) It could even damage the harness. (Parachutes de France had two harness failures with Microlined tandem canopies.)

Tandem rigs are commercial vehicles, so comfort and safety for the passenger is our number one consideration. A smaller, lighter rig will always be secondary. "Zero" stretch lines are perfectly fine if you have a canopy which never opens hard...no matter what you do to it. However, I know of no such canopy.

I moved away form Vectran on my Icarus Tandem Canopies because of the short life, and opted for Spectra, I think 1100lb, maybe 1500lb. I know that Spectra does not stretch like Dacron, but seems like a compromise to me. Can anyone comment on Spectra with regard to Tandem Mains?
I have had a few openings that were a little “snappy” with the Icarus tandem canopies but generally the load was at or over 500lb so the fall rate was a little hot, and have never had the need to deploy at tandem terminal! I’ve seen some DZs offer a “base price tandem” form 7k, that seems to not leave much time to fix any “stability issue” throw the drogue and decelerate again by 4,500 feet to me. That said, even vary rare worst case I generally will have the drogue out 1000 feet off the AC.

Somewhat related I jumped solo a new Icarus 365 just as a new canopy test, I thought that was going to end up being my first cut away on a tandem rig. I started deployment above 6000 feet and it took over 2000’ to open, with me and the rig suspended was over 250lb. I didn’t cut away because throughout the long “snivel” I was decelerating the whole time. My greatest fear was that the reserve would have the same low wing loading opening “issue”. Something to consider when solo jumping a tandem canopy.

Am I hijacking here, seem to be getting a little way off the original topic?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[diablopilot 2]

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I think that "zero" stretch lines are a bad idea on tandem canopies.

Agreed. Can you just do something about the damn brake stows?

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However, I know of no such canopy.

I've got 2 that are working towards 2000 jumps between them with no hard openings.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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Agreed. Can you just do something about the damn brake stows?

This I find odd.

I've got about 500 tandem jumps, mostly on Sigma systems with Sigma 370 mains or an EZ-384 (I have about 30 on Icarus mains of various sizes and about 10 on the A2 and one on the Firebolt) and I've never really had a problem with the brake settings or releasing the brakes. They all haven't come unset 100% cleanly but never once have I had one that I had to fight with or that worried me.

What is everyone doing different that is creating the problems or am I simply that "lucky bastard" to only have 500 tandems, being a newby TI and not having experienced it?

Maybe its a weight thing? Due to my ape-like size (according to SM1 ) most of my tandems are close or right at 500lbs total weight.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

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What is everyone doing different that is creating the problems or am I simply that "lucky bastard" to only have 500 tandems, being a newby TI and not having experienced it?

Ah, but have you ever had the pleasure of jumping a tandem canopy that din't require you to dick with said stows?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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Ah, but have you ever had the pleasure of jumping a tandem canopy that din't require you to dick with said stows?

Yup, as stated in my previous post I have something like atleast 30 jumps on Icarus mains and 10-20 on the A2.

The A2 is the only one that can even come close to holding a candle to the performance of the Sigma main. I've stated my opinion on the various canopies I've used many times over...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

And as stated before the inconsistancies between Sigma 370 mains (the difference whith which they perform from one another) is another reason I like the Icarus/Eclipse canopies better. The Sigmas are nice, but not my favorite.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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And as stated before the inconsistancies between Sigma 370 mains (the difference whith which they perform from one another)

I have noticed that. We had an old Sigma main that we thought was nice until we got a new one, it sucked compared to the new one (although it was pretty good in its own right). We sent it in and had a loaner canopy for a while. It was test jumped and decided that it sucked by "they" didn't know why, so it was replaced for us from the factory.

Why and how, I have no clue, especially since the factory building the canopies for RWS is pretty squared away and consistant.

It almost seems like there was some sort of tweak, line trim or otherwise at some point in the past 4 years that has made a difference, but I do not know.

Eitherway, atleast it was shown and proven to me, if you have a "bad" one, the company takes care of you and fixes your problem.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[aironscott 3]

Wow I am very surprised at the variety of responses in this discussion. To me this is a no brainer. I am rated on Strong, Vector/Sigma, and Eclipses. I have done extensive rigging work on Racers. Done about 2500 tandems or so at several drop zones. Does any of this make me an expert on the subject? No, but neither is anyone else here. There is absolutely no comparison between a Sigma and any other rig. I don't mean to turn this into a Bill Booth fan club post but c'mon the Sigma is in a class by itself.

The good points have already been posted so I'll spare you the details. But (and I apologise in advance) I need to go negative here for just a bit.

Last season I did all of my tandems on new or nearly new Strongs. My god what pieces of shit these things are. Is Ted telling me that he can't make a drouge pouch good enough so instead he puts vlecro on the drouge itself??? And what happens if for some reason my right arm becomes disabled? I've got extremely limited options. I am ok with the new harness that Strong built but it hardly makes up for how poorly the old ones were constructed. And the SET 400? Please. Make a modern canopy. Luckily we had mostly Icarus 365s last year.

As far as main canopies go, its kind of a toss up to me between the Icarus and the Sigma as far as flight and landing goes. I do not like the no brake settings on the Icarus though. When I'm jumping Icarus, I just close my eyes on opening and count to 5. Once the thing is done dancing around, then I'll take over.
Usuall I enjoy reading and agree with Riggerrob's posts in this forum. And I won't change my opinion from one post. But did you really say that you would buy Racer tandems if you had the choice? Dude, they're Racers! However comfortable they may be, they're still Racers. As a rigger I don't mind them because they've made me some decent money over the years repairing them but outside of that I don't have a good thing to say.

So, in conclusion, go Sigma or go home.

Peace-
Aaron

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[efs4ever 3]

So, in conclusion, go Sigma or go home.

Yep.

When is RWS going to start licensing the disk drogue retention / release system?

I've seen the Racer, and it's all just more complex. Pay the piper for his invention and all systems will improve.

When I started this sport almost 27 years ago the first thing I marveled at was the "Three Ring Circus" release system on my instructor's Wonderhog.

Nevertheless I still ended up with a "Classiflyer" that had a system of solid levers on the riser; albeit a single point release system. Not for long.

See what works? Three ring release is still on all rigs. I can see Sigma type systems dominating in a decade.

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[billbooth 10]

I hope you're right.

[skydived19006 4]

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I can see Sigma type systems dominating in a decade.

Might take a score (two decades) for the patton to run out.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

What's a "patton?" Do you mean patent?

[skydived19006 4]

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What's a "patton?" Do you mean patent?

Nope, the 1970 movie staring George C. Scott, have you seen it?

Spell check helps me to look smarter than I really am, but the homophones nail me quite often.

Poor spellers of the world UNTIE!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[jumper03 0]

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I don't believe there's been any instances of bag strip when the recommended stowing proceedures were used (tandem tube stows on the locking stows, wide tandem bands on the rest). Although I could very well be wrong.

Alright - recommended by who? Where did this come from? I looked over the manual and didn't find any recommendation for what goes where. We use the big tube stows on the first two locking stows and then wide rubber bands on the other locking stows and non-locking stows. When quizzed about this, the guy who has been there the longest said he kinda, sorta remembers that is what the RWS guys said when they delivered the rigs and went over the packing.

Are you using tube stows on all four locking stows? I'm all for it if that is what they recommend.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[AggieDave 6]

It was a powerpoint slide show that I watched written by Bill Booth. In the slide show he recommended tandem tube stows for the two locking stows and tandem rubber bands for the rest of the stows.

If you want, we can pull it out so you can see it when you come and visit in a couple of weeks. Todd (my course director and DZO) has it on his "RWS tandem course" disk and he got it after viewing the siminar at a PIA a couple of PIAs ago (I believe).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydiverek 54]

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The Strong, like the Eclipse, has a separate drogue cutaway handle for those times when you have a total with drogue-in-tow.

OK, I am little confused here... By "drogue cutaway handle" you mean the "drogue release handle", right? (the one attached to canopy cutaway handle).

You cannot literally cutaway a drogue ONLY, on any tandem rig right? (so that the drogue floats free to the ground, like a freebag). Or can you???

Am I totally misinformed here ?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I have to check myself here, because I just thought about what I wrote and it did not make sense at all. Pulling the cutaway handle on my Racer cuts away the main and releases the drogue so you don't have a horseshoe malfunction. The drogue on my Racer is attached to the D-bag and canopy exactly like on a regular rig and the large ring on the bridle (the drogue attachment point) is released by pulling either of the drogue releases or the cutaway handle. I have no idea what the hell I was thinking when I typed that. Sorry for the confusion.

[masher 1]

So a drouge cutaway handle totally separates you from the drouge? so you'd go into tandem terminal? I thought that the drouge was securely attached to the bridle which was securely attached to the d-bag, which was attached to the canopy.

The DZ that I jump at uses Racers, and I thought the the drouge release that is attached to the cutaway handle was just a drouge release, not a drouge cutaway.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[jgarango 0]

You need to read Chuck's post again. He didn't say anything about cutting away the drouge. He said that cutting away the main releases the drouge. It means releases it from the 3 ring assembly, not from the d-bag or the canopy.

[skydiverek 54]

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You need to read Chuck's post again. He didn't say anything about cutting away the drouge.

He did, but later he edited his post. You just saw the post after editing. Next poster's question was concerning the pre-edited post...

[bodypilot1 0]

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I have no idea what the hell I was thinking when I typed that.

Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[jgarango 0]

Sorry about that. My bad!!!!

[airtwardo 6]

It would be my guess that the new Strong will look amazingly like a bigger Quasar. That's pure speculation on my part, but if it doesn't then they are really not listening to the consumer......at all.


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From what I 'hear'...it won't look like anything on the market today. Form & function of the back end bottom side will no doubt inspire some redesign for standard sport rigs too.


...From what I 'hear'

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~