STRONG vs SIGMA vs VECTOR vs ECLIPSE TANDEM RIGS

[riggerrob 558]

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It would be my guess that the new Strong will look amazingly like a bigger Quasar. That's pure speculation on my part, but if it doesn't then they are really not listening to the consumer......at all.


***

From what I 'hear'...it won't look like anything on the market today. Form & function of the back end bottom side will no doubt inspire some redesign for standard sport rigs too.


...From what I 'hear'

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Strong's new ELAN tandem rig did not debut at PIA 2005, but I did hear a few hints from factory reps. Back in January 2005, they still wanted to "iron out a few wrinkles) before showing it to the public.
First off: they did not listen to customer suggestions - over the last 13 years - about making it look like an over-grown Quasar.
ELAN prototypes have one-pin Pop-Top reserves with exposed freebags.
ELAN will also have a radically different version of 3-Rings to release main risers. There will only be one cable sewn to the release handle, which will release the right riser. As the right riser leaves, it will pull a second cable to release the left riser.
According to Bill Booth: "That infringes on my patent. I tested that configuration many years ago and did not like it, just cannot remember why???"

[billbooth 10]

The main reason I didn't like that one sided cutaway setup, was that if the RSL accidentally disconnected (a fairly common experience), you basically have no way to release the other riser. Besides, it does infringe on the Collins' Lanyard patent, which does the same thing if the right (RSL) riser accidentally goes first, but retains the ability to release both risers with the breakaway handle. This is just one of many devices I have tried in the past, but never gone to market with, because the minuses outnumber the pluses.

[brettpobastad 0]

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I don't mean to turn this into a Bill Booth fan club post but c'mon the Sigma is in a class by itself.

Why are they in a class by themselves? Outside of the obvious, what makes them so much different than the others rigs? I am certainly not saying anything negative about the Sigma because I have never jumped one. I have seen one up close and I have near 3000 tandems. I'm rated on all the other rigs and have put hundreds of jumps on all of them and most all of the different canopies (in some pretty unusual and creative configurations, I might add). Outside of the Eclipse, which I just don't see any need for, they each have their benefits and drawbacks and their own unique features. Please tell if I’m wrong, but the Sigma seems to be set up to perform the same way as the Vector II tandem rig but with a slightly better drogue attachment location. All of the same handles are there in pretty much the same location and you pull them in the same order right? One of the supposed (and mostly perceived) drawbacks of the original Vector was the drogue placement. Shoobi addressed the issue on the Eclipse by making the rig shorter and wider (which caused other negative side affects). The Sigma is addressing that issue by physically moving the location closer to center, as with the Jump Shack and Strong rigs. Other then that, how is it functionally different than the original Vector? And for the record, I’m a charter member of the Bill Booth fan club (We got a secret handshake and everything). Guys a fucking genius!

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But did you really say that you would buy Racer tandems if you had the choice? Dude, they're Racers! However comfortable they may be, they're still Racers. As a rigger I don't mind them because they've made me some decent money over the years repairing them but outside of that I don't have a good thing to say.

I’m curious about this statement for several reasons. What kind of repairs would you do on a Racer? Are you referring to a Racer tandem rig or a sport rig? Is the work being done mostly on older (let’s say, pre-1990) Racers? In reference to the Jump Shack tandem rig (and not including the obvious benefits of superior reserve pin protection and comfort). You must know that there are two very significant and real world advantages to the rig (as much as 25 lbs lighter than other tandem rigs and a drogue attachment system that is integrated into the passenger harness). On a related note, the feature that all the other rigs are addressing on newer versions, Jump Shack built in into the original design. I’m of course talking about the third drogue release point integrated into the cutaway system. Jump Shack’s cutaway / drogue release system makes more mechanical sense and wasn’t put in as an afterthought. Please don’t take this the wrong way because I don’t mean to turn this into a ‘Racer pros and cons’ discussion. I find it amusing that supposedly in the know jumpers and riggers still make a statement similar to yours. Almost to a person, everyone praises the comfort of the Jump Shack Racer but then adds something to the effect of ‘but they’re bad’ or ‘they’re inferior’ or ‘they are hard to pack’ or ‘that’s old technology’. But nobody can come up with a real reason, let alone a valid example to support their argument. Every manufacturer out there today makes a good product. But a Racer made today is an updated and improved version of a superior original design accomplished years ago. And visually the appear alike. Uninformed jumpers and riggers call this old technology. What it really means is the thing was done right the first time. With all due respect to Bill Booth, he ain’t no John Sherman. An old Vector is a Wonderhog and a new Infinity (sorry Kelly!) is a Vector III, and so on and so forth.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why are they in a class by themselves? Outside of the obvious, what makes them so much different than the others rigs?

http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/05321.pdf

http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdt_skyhook.html

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I have seen one up close and I have near 3000 tandems. I'm rated on all the other rigs and have put hundreds of jumps on all of them and most all of the different canopies (in some pretty unusual and creative configurations, I might add).

You don't have a medical though?????

Derek

[brettpobastad 0]

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I am of two minds on the question of ELAN handles. On the one hand, handles similar to DHT would make conversion a no-brainer.
On the other hand, it would be nice if SEI moved its handles in line with the rest of the tandem industry (i.e. second drogue release handle on lower left). That would make it easier for national aero clubs to take over the role of training new TIs.

On a Racer tandem rig you can configure one (or both) drouge release handles on either side of the container and in a number of differant places on the passenger or on the instructor. When I worked for Blue Sky Adventures in Paso Robles several years ago I set up my Racer rig like the fleet of Vectors that were already there.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

I'm going to give you one more chance to retract your statemernt.....

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[egons 0]

.... I think the Sigma addresses a little more than the drogue placement!
The Sigma is a drogue deployed system... as apposed to all other tandem systems (including the V2) where the drogue was merely tacked onto an existing container!
If you honestly think there is a safer tandem system I would love to know what it is and what makes it safer... I am not knocking any other products out there - and I have jumped many tandem systems and the Sigma has taken tandem gear to the next level... fact!

Keep in mind all Sigma's come standard with Skyhook as well which no other tandem system offers

Cheers
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[brettpobastad 0]

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If you honestly think there is a safer tandem system I would love to know what it is and what makes it safer... I am not knocking any other products out there - and I have jumped many tandem systems and the Sigma has taken tandem gear to the next level... fact!

This Friday I'll be jumping a Sigma for the first time. I'll let you and the rest of this thread know how I liked it. And I fully expect to be impressed by it. Will you be making a jump on a Racer Tandem anytime in the near future?

...skies!

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

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Usuall I enjoy reading and agree with Riggerrob's posts in this forum. And I won't change my opinion from one post. But did you really say that you would buy Racer tandems if you had the choice? Dude, they're Racers! However comfortable they may be, they're still Racers. As a rigger I don't mind them because they've made me some decent money over the years repairing them but outside of that I don't have a good thing to say.

So, in conclusion, go Sigma or go home.

Out of curiousity, I asked Nancy LaRiviere from The JUMP SHACK about the Racer Tandem saftey record.....


Brett,

There has been one fatality on a Racer Tandem. It occurred in Italy about 4 years ago. The Tandem Instructor apparently pulled low, experienced a main malfunction and pulled the reserve handle without cutting away. The fatality was attributed to apparent failure to cutaway. Examination of the system revealed the mechanics of the system in working order. I estimate that there have been approximately 9,000,000 tandem jumps made on Racer Tandems over the past 15 years, and there has been one fatality. The Racer Tandem has the best safety record amongst the top 3 Tandem Rigs (Vector/Sigma, Strong, Racer), hands down.

You're absolutely right on all the other points. The Racer has always been the most elegant and simple in its design. RWS and Strong tend to be "additive" in their approach to design. John Sherman has a talent for over-all, integrative design, and it shows in the Racer. I've heard Bill Booth say many, many times, and I quote, "Sherman did it right the first time".

You are also correct in that many people do not realize that the Racer has evolved over the past 30 years, and is not the same "old technology" as it was 30 years ago. With the Racer, Jump Shack has introduced more real safety features than any other manufacturer : Non-compressible housings, Teflon-coated, maintenance-free cutaway cables, Teflon impregnated Type 2a, a Tandem Drogue that can be cut with a hook knife, the 3-point cutaway/drogue release, center-mounted line-stows, the Speed Bag which prevents line strip, John Sherman re-wrote the book on 3-ring systems and Type 17 riser construction, created Pro Packing, he literally taught Bill Booth, Sandy Reid, Henri Pohjolainen and Derek Thomas how to build harness/container systems. In 1986-87, when PD first came out with their 9-cell canopies, the canopies didn't open or fly very well. Guess who they came to for information on low speed aerodynamics? I could go on of course, but does that adequately answer your question?

Nancy


...yes Nancy, it does answer my question. Thanks. I'm wondering when everyone else will get the point.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[egons 0]

...I guess I am going to have to look at the new Racer Tandem System - did not actually know they had a new Tandem system availible.

Let me know what you think of the Sigma - I would interested to see what you think after jumping it

Safe Jumping!!!

Cheers
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[skydiverek 54]

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...I guess I am going to have to look at the new Racer Tandem System - did not actually know they had a new Tandem system availible.

Yup. Racer Tandem 2k3. Come on - they are only 100 feet from you !

[sdctlc 0]

Brett,

The Sigma is a completely different rig then the Vector 2 a number of areas but in comfort no comparison. Did the DZ get some Sigmas? You will like it, maybe not enough to get you swayed away from the racer but you should like it lots! I know I do..... I would be curious to hear your opinion on it compared to the Racer..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[egons 0]

Yes you have a point! But Bill does not let me out much

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[OnYourBack 0]

"I estimate that there have been approximately 9,000,000 tandem jumps made on Racer Tandems over the past 15 years, and there has been one fatality."

This is not really proof to me that they are the safest hands down. What are the stats of Vector/Sigma and Strong. I would think they are used quite a bit more often than Racer. And like the Racer fatality, we shouldn't really count instructor error as a system design failure.

[livendive 8]

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we shouldn't really count instructor error as a system design failure.

I don't know nearly enough about Racers, Sigmas, or Strongs to get too involved in that discusion, but thought I'd respond to this part. The safest system design is one in which operator error cannot cause system failure. The less susceptible a system is to operator error, the better the system is.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[OnYourBack 0]

I would agree when your talking about things like Sigma's response to out of sequence deployment. But no system can prevent some of the things we do to ourselves like side spins or collapses due to turbulence.

[egons 0]

...Side spins is easily understood! A large portion of the side spin is introduced with the TI incorrectly sizing and fitting the passenger harness.
Collapses due to turbulence is unfortunately an extremely dangerous thing if low down - however I have noticed many new canopies out on the market for tandem skydiving... The issue I have mostly with the majority of the new tandem canopies out there is this collapse issue with the canopies trimmed so flat... guess yes the pro is slightly lighter toggle pressure, but has unforgiving con's
I can honestly tell you that every manufacturer out there does everything it can to make gear safer for us and I think gear has jumped in leaps... The innovation continues thankfully to some really dedicated people...

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[skydiverek 54]

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This Friday I'll be jumping a Sigma for the first time. I'll let you and the rest of this thread know how I liked it. And I fully expect to be impressed by it.

And...? How was it???

[brettpobastad 0]

...got postponed. We hope to do it this Friday. I will definatley let you know when I jump one. I'm looking forward to it.

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[sneaky 0]

Sigma

The Zenith of the dogs bollox