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mfrese

TIs: Line twists on Icarus mains?

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I asked a TMI at our DZ what the tandem harddeck was after a Spanish TM rode in a blown topcell and was debating to chop it untill 1000 ft (as per a thread on dropzone). I asked: Can you chop a tandem at 1000ft?" i thought tandem reserves opened slower than sport reserves answer: "Yeah! Apperantly you can! But don't do it!"
Turned out that weekend there was a foreign TM at Texel who disconnected one riser at 1000 ft by accident instead of disconnecting the RSL as he wanted to do. He chopped real quick, and the reserve opened in time.

The TM's and the TMI at our DZ said there is no hard deck as such, but tandem reserves can take thousands of feet to open yes. I think most of them have a 3500ft harddeck.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Actually, I got that advice from another experienced TM on here after the original post, and I tried it when I had line twists that I was eventually able to kick out of. With dirty, slightly frayed Vectran lines going through 5 line twists, I couldn't pull the steering lines at all. [:/] I probably could have done it if I'd really been determined, but I figured that pulling hard enough to do chin-ups on the toggles was probably not the best way to go. :)
Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

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Actually, as long as you are pulling the steering line slowly through the twisted lines, it won't cause any problem/damage to the lines; it is of course very hard to pull that toggle because of such tension on the control line. So, in the event of the situation again, go ahead and do a two-handed pull on the toggle and get it down! so that you can un-do that line twist situation. In other words, your figuring that doing the hard pull on the toggle not being the way to go is not correct, it IS the way to go.

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I think good body position at pull time goes a long way.



That's what I keep telling my tandem "students".
But do they listen?
Nah... :)
(& BTW - I chopped a HOP 330 once after an opening that was a bit too sporty for my taste - load them high enough and deploy them in a passenger induced half turn and all of a sudden "low toggle presure with easy landings" lose a lot of their significance...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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3500 ft!? thats a where a slow opening can stop! something to think about anyway i guess?.



But it is also where a slow opening can continue. Five seconds to go when in freefall with the definite determination to always beat the AAD... :)
(@ 3000 I HAVE decided, @ 2500 I HAVE chopped...* repeats Mantra in search of enlightment*)


edited to add a note on Beezyshaws solution / proposal:

How a bout just releasing the opposite brake? When you kick to the left and pull with both hands on the left, why not release the brake on the right? O wait, Icarus mains...(but it might work on other canopies...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Get a new packer[:/]

I have done 300 jumps now on my private Icarus 330 and only had one linetwist.

Tip:
Just look up and see what way the canopy is heading and what direction you want to untwist. Now just stick your hand and leg out on the appropriate side and grab as much air as you can. Since Icarus tandems open in full drive, the higher airspeed will make you start turning and help you untwist. Hope this makes sense?

I agree to above statement. On the Icarus since they are flying full speed just look at the canopy, pull one toggle lightly if it doesnt seem right, pull the other one a bit and you will soon notice that you can just pull a bit harder and your linetwists will be gone! Someone said insted of pulling risers apart try to pull them together, have not tried this but will next time I get linetwists that wont give in easily.

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I 1000+ tandems on Icarus 330 and 365 mains. My guess is that I've had line twists less than 1 in 100 jumps, and it's always been because we dropped a shoulder on deployment, and were snapped and turning after the canopy was flying. I deploy at 5,500', and I'll generally just let the canopy do it's thing and untwist its self. That said, it is very frustrating to be under an open and flying canopy, and still turning under it, the wrong way!

I'll also load up to 500 plus lbs (I weigh 210/220 and will haul a 240 lb student). I've had 0 tandem reserve rides, but fear one when heavy! Carrying TR375 reserves (as opposed to "jumping" them)

Martin





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I have a couple hundred jumps on Sigma 370's. I love the way they open but that's where the love affair stops. They fly nice and are sporty on the toggles. I agree that the initial rate of turn on a toggle is signifigantly faster than on an Icarus main. BFD...! The toggle pressure is on the high side, which is not a big deal unless you jump big students or you are on your 10th tandem of the day. My biggest complaint about the Sigma tandem mains is that THEY LAND LIKE CRAP unless you do some sort of performance building maneuver ( braked approach, carving turn to final etc...). They are trimmed so flat that unless you carry a little extra airspeed into the flare you get a mushy landing. It's all good until you have that shitty setup that we all have from time to time on the no wind day and there is no altitude to setup a braked approach or it is super bumpy and your setup is screwed. I want a parachute that will deliver a positive flare in all conditions. Also I love the toggle pressure on the Icarus mains. I can rear riser them back from a long spot, and I can flare the biggest student that I am willing to take ( which is up to the 500 lb. TSO on the Sigma rig ) by myself. How many of you have ever had to land an unconscious tandem student?

Alot of people bitch about Icarus openings. I think good body position at pull time goes a long way.

We have people here who swear by the Sigmas too, as we have some of each. I guess it is all what you like. I do remember a rash of 6 malfunctions we had in a month period last year. All were very experienced tandem I's (1000+ tandems). 5 of the 6 were on Sigma mains less that a year old. All were due to tension knots. The one on an Icarus main was on a main with well over 1000 jumps on it. I have seen countless drogue entanglements with steering lines, drogues over noses, and one lost drogue due to a weak attach point on a Sigma main. Draw your own conclusion.


Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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I run a busy DZ with 16 Sigmas loaded with Icarus 365s. In two years we've had one chop (due to a walk-through). I think if you have good packers and reline the pigs before they get bad you'll be fine. Use the fat rubber bands, beat the bad packers with a stick, make sure the stows are uniform... you know, the usual deal.


I don't think its endemic to the Icarus, at any rate, unless you got a lemon.

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Okay, so i've done several searches in the forums and I think I've seen some common responses; however, I'm going to bring this up again to help educate myself (and maybe even other TMs).

I've been doing Tandems for about 8 years, mostly on SET 400s (Strong) and the last 200 on Icarus 330 (SIGMA & Eclipse). We had a TM chop for line twists and we thought it was an anomally. This weekend, I chopped one for line twists on the first load, and another instructor chopped for the same thing on load 2.

For my experience (after watching slo mo video), my opening involved a slight shoulder drop during the trap door, but lines coming out straight and taut throughout. Canopy opened fully and was not spinning. Once the canopy was open, we started spinning up, and I had line twists from about 1/2 way up, down towards the top of the risers. I've kicked out of plenty of these before, but nothing seemed to work. Kicking actually turned us TIGHTER (both of us kicking and just me). Just sitting there resulted in no movement at all. Using my arm to get leverage to "kick start" the unwinding would turn me about 45 degrees, and then right back to where I was (i.e. the line twists seemed to have "locked" the risers/lines in place). After messing with it from around 4800 to 3800 feet, I finally chopped.

One of our more senior TMs suggested (after the fact) trying to get the twists tighter/deeper until they are into the risers to help start the unwinding, and that matches some of the comments mentioned previously. The other recommended response from here appears to be trying to pull a toggle to start a canopy turn will help the canopy unwind itself (something that at face value worries me - but I will put in my kit-bag).

Based on my description, other posts, and your experience, have any of you had other solutions for "Locked" line twists on Icarus Tandem Mains?

Thanks in advance
Weaves

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Icarus/Precision Tandem mains open in full flight and have a relatively high airspeed because of this. You're probably not able to get more than that 45 degrees that you speak of because the drag from your students lower body becomes to great for you to overcome with your kicking.

Ask your student to tuck their legs between and behind your (arch again) and try kicking. I'll bet you it works.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I have chopped the Icarus 365 and also 2 other instructors from my DZ for the same issue, with a set 400 all you really have to do is sit and wait. But the Icarus will not untwist without some serious help.

It has gotten to the point where only 2 of the 8 Ti's, me being one of them will even jump those canopies,for other reasons as well, the stall point of the flare comes quick and if its not just right you get a sudden drop.

I don't want to bash the canopies to bad, but they are definately one you have to relearn a few tricks on.
I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

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I have done most of my 1500 tandems on Icarus mains.

When the canopy is inflating be relaxed, if you feel the canopy want to twist up; arch hard and you will find this will help considerably. I was told this about a year ago. Since, I have only had a few twists, and they have been the more radical turns otherwise the tention on the lines is too much so the twist never happens.

I have a differnt technique now I think the trick has something to do with centrifical or G force??!? But you should feel your hard arch have an effect on the tention of the lines when you do it, but only if the timing is done right (while the twist is trying to happen). My current technique (hard to explain) is easier and not as tireing than arching but you should get the feel of it.

It is the forward drive that is stopping you from kicking out once you are in twists, tell your customer to put thier legs together and straight down, determine which way it needs to unwind, if it needs to wind to the right, hold your right arm and left leg out to the side while keeping your leftt leg and left arm straight down. Your right arm and leg will catch the wind and you will turn 180 degrees, you have to bring your arm and leg in once a 180 degree turn/(unwind) has been made. The momentum should continue though and as you face in the origional direction (360 degrees) put the arm and leg out again, this will have you unwound in no time.

You have to use the forward drive to your advantage.

If your canopy tends to snivel a bit longer (usually when this phenomenon happens) make sure you pull no lower than 5500 even 6000, and review how your packer is presenting the nose of the canopy in the packjog, pushing the nose in is a common culprit.

If you feel your canopy wants to stall while on brakes? Try lengthening the brakelines a couple of inches. The canopies at our DZ are relined on site and the rigger puts extra length in the brake lines, he found that over time they shrink due to the twists getting bunded into the line during deployment thus shortening them.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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It is the forward drive that is stopping you from kicking out once you are in twists, tell your customer to put thier legs together and straight down, determine which way it needs to unwind, if it needs to wind to the right, hold your right arm and left leg out to the side while keeping your leftt leg and left arm straight down. Your right arm and leg will catch the wind and you will turn 180 degrees, you have to bring your arm and leg in once a 180 degree turn/(unwind) has been made. The momentum should continue though and as you face in the origional direction (360 degrees) put the arm and leg out again, this will have you unwound in no time.



Excellent technique. I was seriously considering chopping from line twists about a month ago. I had a drogue bridle knotted around the drogue (another thread). Deployed at about 8'000' with basically no drag, so very slow. We ended up with huge line twists, I worked and worked at it, then remembered reading this thread. I asked my student to "stand up", I did the same, and just let the canopy unwind once we got our knees out of the wind.

BTW, I've had line twists before on Icarus tandems, something like 1800 tandems, all Icarus. As you say, I typically feel a shoulder drop in the trap door, then the deployment "snatches" us into the twist. This only happens maybe once in 50 to 100 jumps.

Best help with this problem is altitude! I always open at or above 5,500'!

To date only one cut away due to both A/B center lines breaking at the bottom of the cascade. Canopy really didn't like to act nice with those lines gone!

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Last week end the same situation happened to me where i felt the canopy twisting on opening. The technique you posted came up to my mind and i did it. I got rid of the twist (5 turns +) without problem and really fast! Thanks! Be assure that i passed this information to all the TI on my DZ! :)


I jump, I live, I love. Ourson #1 Ordre des Ours Polaires Volants

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