Unstable 8 #1 August 1, 2004 Arrrrgh, I've got to get this off my chest. I learned a lot today (Translation: I screwed up, Big time...). So there I was, Instructing Static Line Students. I'm still a relativly new Instructor, I've only worked with about 50 Students as an I, and about another 50 as a coach. I've still got lots and lots to learn. After a few Experienced and Tandem Loads from our C-182, It was my turn to take a Student Load up with 2 students on Static Line and one on his 10-second delay. The winds today were curious, very shifty and out of the North-West up high and from the South-East Down low. In the period of one hour, the winds had shifted over 120 Degrees. So here I go with my load, I talk to the pilot, and three or four jumpers on the previous loads about the correct spot and the winds up top. I decide on a spot that sounds reasonable and up we go. My first student was this poor 100 pound girl under a 288 Manta. She's backing up in 8 mph Winds. The poor thing lands about 100 yards away from the Dropzone. Crappy spot. I adjust and the rest of my students land just fine. Some jumpers just find pleasure in making sure I know when I screw up. Seems my mistakes cause them great joy. Okay, so here is what I've learned today. = > First STUDENT load of the day gets a WDI, even if we've been jumping that day for some time. Sometimes we slack on that, but I'm going to just make it happens. I am responsible for my students and making sure they land safely. Thanks for letting me tell this story. It's been bothering the hell out of me today, and I wanted to get it off my chest. It feels kinda liberating to say "Hey, I #*ck#d up!!" =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #2 August 1, 2004 Hey I am new to this but I have studied my ass off reading and learning, but a 100 lb girl on a 288 manta that was part of the problem no? 100# girl 30?# of gear 130 That's a wing loading of 0.45? That seems light and partially to blame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #3 August 1, 2004 QuoteThat seems light and partially to blame. Heck Man, If you break it down, it really was a number of things that all sumed up against the situation. My point basically is that as an Instructor, it really was my responsibility. Our Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Personally, I would prefer to have a few Flight Concepts 230's for situations like these, but the call really in't mine....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 August 1, 2004 QuoteIf you break it down, it really was a number of things that all sumed up against the situation Bing, we have a winner. It seems that just about every incident can be broken down to a series of events that lead to a big problem. It seems like you learned an important lesson and it sounds like it won't be a mistake that will be repeated.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #5 August 1, 2004 Cool. I was not hating on ya. I got better sence than that. Just making sure I was right on thinking 288 was large for her. Laterzzzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #6 August 1, 2004 QuoteCool. I was not hating on ya. I got better sence than that. Just making sure I was right on thinking 288 was large for her. Laterzzzz It may be large but that's what I was taught under because that was the only student canopies they had. Not all DZ's have the luxury of having multiple rigs and canopies for all shapes and sizes. Unstable - I've seen more experienced instructors put students much further away, don't beat yourself up over it. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #7 August 1, 2004 ... don't beat yourself upover it. Welcome to the world of instructing. Despite all the grandiose numbers published by USPA, BPA, CSPA, etc. the bottom line is: stop dropping students when Mantas start backing up. Larger DZs have the luxury of dropping small students with 230s, etc. Judging winds is never a simple process. Your story reminds me of a similar experience 20 years ago. After a lengthy wind hold, I took up a load of static-liners (with round canopies) in the early evening. The wind drift indicator tore when I tossed it, so I had to "eyeball" the spot. My first student landed in a large field south of the runway. We didn't normally land there, but he landed safely in a field. I adjusted the spot and my second student landed in the grass just north of the runway. I adjusted the spot for my third student, who landed well north of the runway, beside the bowl. Back in the packing area, another instructor loudly berated me - in front of students. He angrily called me an "a$$hole" for dropping students so far from the bowl. Then he took up a load of students, who all landed a low way south of the runway. The chief instructor took up the last load at sunset. By then it was so dark that you could not see the arrow. All of his students landed a long way south of the runway and it is rumored that some of them even landed in the forest. I left quietly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tattoojeff 0 #8 August 2, 2004 dont be so hard on yourself. the fact that your this upset tell me your a good sti. you care, and thats a big part of being a good sti. every one lived and you learned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unstable 8 #9 August 2, 2004 I'm sure a lot of you can tell this about me from my posts, but I tend to be a little High-Strung. It gives me some unique advantages & disadvantages as an Instructor.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #10 August 2, 2004 Shaun, Remember what I told you in the course? Now you have the rating to go out and really learn! Students should not be the first load of the day or the first loac after a wind change if you do not use a WDI and, a WDI should be used for students. Experienced instructors have an "idea" of where the spot should be depending upon the winds if they jump at the same DZ all the time. After their first "WAG" they then adjust, and adjust, and adjust. It's part of learning! Keep on keeping on Shaun, you do a great job. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #11 August 2, 2004 Well you made a mistake. We all do sometimes. Please do not blame yourself to much. You just start as an instructor. The good point is you saw what happened and adjusted this for the other jumpers. There are a lot instructors (also experienced) which drop the second student at the same place. Lightweight student and big canopy is always critical. Perhaps you can try "Heavy first" next time. Try to evaluate yourself from time to time. Try not to make the same mistake twice. One of my examinors told me something like: It is better to sit at home in the evening and feel bad about not allowing a student to jump. Than feeling bad because you have to visit the student in hospital or worse that should not be allowed to jump. Making jokes with someone who makes a little mistake (but nothing happened) is very cheap humor. At the DZ I jump we would kick that guys ass. We had a funny thing last weekend. The instructor that does the ground-shool normaly. Did a tandem in the lastlift with all the students around a bonfire and he showed a perfect emergency procedure. Well after that we had to explain: Find canopy in corn-field to the students ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #12 August 2, 2004 Well, you learned from that one, and your attitude is in the right place,so keep going. You're going to make a great instructor. A couple of questions. How well did the rig fit that little girl? Also, should she have been the first out, since she was so floaty? At our DZ we go heavy first, light last, so the ground controller has an easier time. Also, little people fit better in the back of the plane. Our DZ also has a few rigs for lighter students, samller harnesses with smaller mains. It's not easy to spot for a student who's going to be backing up. That's a tough spot to put a new instructor in. Don't know how experienced your pilot was, but he should have had some better input for you, too. Our's are so good I can't remember the last correction I had to give. Keep the faith, man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unstable 8 #13 August 2, 2004 Quote How well did the rig fit that little girl? Just fine - It has the Adjustable lift web, so the harness fit her okay. QuoteAlso, should she have been the first out, since she was so floaty? I miscommunicated in my post - my apologies. She was the only student actually on Static Line - The others were on a Static-Line progression program, but cleared for freefall. The next student was going to 5,500, so yes, she should have been the first out. I hope this helps everyone understand the situation I put myself in. Hopefully some other new instructor can read my post and learn something....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #14 August 2, 2004 Thanks for the explanations. I used to JM students in the round days, in fact, I was wearing a round, too, so the wind was a huge factor. But I was lucky, we had a huge DZ in the desert. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unstable 8 #15 August 2, 2004 QuoteMaking jokes with someone who makes a little mistake (but nothing happened) is very cheap humor. At the DZ I jump we would kick that guys ass. It is - and I tend to get it twice as much as any of the other Instructors basically Because of My age and Experience. I appreciated your post.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #16 August 4, 2004 Shaun, Send me their names. I've got some great jokes we can post using their names in the punch line. Keep doing what you do. Live and learn. Be safe. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #17 August 6, 2004 QuoteOur Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Just curious, what does your dz see wrong with putting a 100# girl under a sabre 230 even on jump #1? That is still a really light w/l. fwiw, I weigh more and made my first jumps on a sabre 190 and was fine. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ffejdraga 0 #18 September 23, 2004 Screw them man, she lived, they all lived, the whole world is a dropzone. jeff D-16906 SL/AFF I since 1993/1997 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #19 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteOur Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Just curious, what does your dz see wrong with putting a 100# girl under a sabre 230 even on jump #1? That is still a really light w/l. fwiw, I weigh more and made my first jumps on a sabre 190 and was fine. Angela. No comment on the instructor's choice.. but I was about 135 going through student ASP progression..and I was on a manta 288 until I was through my progression where I went down to a nav 240, then a nav 220, Sil210, PD190, and finally what I fly now is a Sab190. (although now I weigh about 145 and I'm pregnant...still flying my sab190) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #20 October 3, 2004 At Pitt Meadows, most IAD students jump Manta 290 or Skymaster 290 canopies. Sometimes we drop small first jump students with Skymaster 230s. We also have a 370 square foot big-boy rig. 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jlmiracle 7 #6 August 1, 2004 QuoteCool. I was not hating on ya. I got better sence than that. Just making sure I was right on thinking 288 was large for her. Laterzzzz It may be large but that's what I was taught under because that was the only student canopies they had. Not all DZ's have the luxury of having multiple rigs and canopies for all shapes and sizes. Unstable - I've seen more experienced instructors put students much further away, don't beat yourself up over it. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 August 1, 2004 ... don't beat yourself upover it. Welcome to the world of instructing. Despite all the grandiose numbers published by USPA, BPA, CSPA, etc. the bottom line is: stop dropping students when Mantas start backing up. Larger DZs have the luxury of dropping small students with 230s, etc. Judging winds is never a simple process. Your story reminds me of a similar experience 20 years ago. After a lengthy wind hold, I took up a load of static-liners (with round canopies) in the early evening. The wind drift indicator tore when I tossed it, so I had to "eyeball" the spot. My first student landed in a large field south of the runway. We didn't normally land there, but he landed safely in a field. I adjusted the spot and my second student landed in the grass just north of the runway. I adjusted the spot for my third student, who landed well north of the runway, beside the bowl. Back in the packing area, another instructor loudly berated me - in front of students. He angrily called me an "a$$hole" for dropping students so far from the bowl. Then he took up a load of students, who all landed a low way south of the runway. The chief instructor took up the last load at sunset. By then it was so dark that you could not see the arrow. All of his students landed a long way south of the runway and it is rumored that some of them even landed in the forest. I left quietly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #8 August 2, 2004 dont be so hard on yourself. the fact that your this upset tell me your a good sti. you care, and thats a big part of being a good sti. every one lived and you learned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #9 August 2, 2004 I'm sure a lot of you can tell this about me from my posts, but I tend to be a little High-Strung. It gives me some unique advantages & disadvantages as an Instructor.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #10 August 2, 2004 Shaun, Remember what I told you in the course? Now you have the rating to go out and really learn! Students should not be the first load of the day or the first loac after a wind change if you do not use a WDI and, a WDI should be used for students. Experienced instructors have an "idea" of where the spot should be depending upon the winds if they jump at the same DZ all the time. After their first "WAG" they then adjust, and adjust, and adjust. It's part of learning! Keep on keeping on Shaun, you do a great job. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #11 August 2, 2004 Well you made a mistake. We all do sometimes. Please do not blame yourself to much. You just start as an instructor. The good point is you saw what happened and adjusted this for the other jumpers. There are a lot instructors (also experienced) which drop the second student at the same place. Lightweight student and big canopy is always critical. Perhaps you can try "Heavy first" next time. Try to evaluate yourself from time to time. Try not to make the same mistake twice. One of my examinors told me something like: It is better to sit at home in the evening and feel bad about not allowing a student to jump. Than feeling bad because you have to visit the student in hospital or worse that should not be allowed to jump. Making jokes with someone who makes a little mistake (but nothing happened) is very cheap humor. At the DZ I jump we would kick that guys ass. We had a funny thing last weekend. The instructor that does the ground-shool normaly. Did a tandem in the lastlift with all the students around a bonfire and he showed a perfect emergency procedure. Well after that we had to explain: Find canopy in corn-field to the students ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #12 August 2, 2004 Well, you learned from that one, and your attitude is in the right place,so keep going. You're going to make a great instructor. A couple of questions. How well did the rig fit that little girl? Also, should she have been the first out, since she was so floaty? At our DZ we go heavy first, light last, so the ground controller has an easier time. Also, little people fit better in the back of the plane. Our DZ also has a few rigs for lighter students, samller harnesses with smaller mains. It's not easy to spot for a student who's going to be backing up. That's a tough spot to put a new instructor in. Don't know how experienced your pilot was, but he should have had some better input for you, too. Our's are so good I can't remember the last correction I had to give. Keep the faith, man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unstable 8 #13 August 2, 2004 Quote How well did the rig fit that little girl? Just fine - It has the Adjustable lift web, so the harness fit her okay. QuoteAlso, should she have been the first out, since she was so floaty? I miscommunicated in my post - my apologies. She was the only student actually on Static Line - The others were on a Static-Line progression program, but cleared for freefall. The next student was going to 5,500, so yes, she should have been the first out. I hope this helps everyone understand the situation I put myself in. Hopefully some other new instructor can read my post and learn something....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #14 August 2, 2004 Thanks for the explanations. I used to JM students in the round days, in fact, I was wearing a round, too, so the wind was a huge factor. But I was lucky, we had a huge DZ in the desert. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unstable 8 #15 August 2, 2004 QuoteMaking jokes with someone who makes a little mistake (but nothing happened) is very cheap humor. At the DZ I jump we would kick that guys ass. It is - and I tend to get it twice as much as any of the other Instructors basically Because of My age and Experience. I appreciated your post.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #16 August 4, 2004 Shaun, Send me their names. I've got some great jokes we can post using their names in the punch line. Keep doing what you do. Live and learn. Be safe. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #17 August 6, 2004 QuoteOur Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Just curious, what does your dz see wrong with putting a 100# girl under a sabre 230 even on jump #1? That is still a really light w/l. fwiw, I weigh more and made my first jumps on a sabre 190 and was fine. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ffejdraga 0 #18 September 23, 2004 Screw them man, she lived, they all lived, the whole world is a dropzone. jeff D-16906 SL/AFF I since 1993/1997 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #19 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteOur Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Just curious, what does your dz see wrong with putting a 100# girl under a sabre 230 even on jump #1? That is still a really light w/l. fwiw, I weigh more and made my first jumps on a sabre 190 and was fine. Angela. No comment on the instructor's choice.. but I was about 135 going through student ASP progression..and I was on a manta 288 until I was through my progression where I went down to a nav 240, then a nav 220, Sil210, PD190, and finally what I fly now is a Sab190. (although now I weigh about 145 and I'm pregnant...still flying my sab190) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #20 October 3, 2004 At Pitt Meadows, most IAD students jump Manta 290 or Skymaster 290 canopies. Sometimes we drop small first jump students with Skymaster 230s. We also have a 370 square foot big-boy rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Unstable 8 #13 August 2, 2004 Quote How well did the rig fit that little girl? Just fine - It has the Adjustable lift web, so the harness fit her okay. QuoteAlso, should she have been the first out, since she was so floaty? I miscommunicated in my post - my apologies. She was the only student actually on Static Line - The others were on a Static-Line progression program, but cleared for freefall. The next student was going to 5,500, so yes, she should have been the first out. I hope this helps everyone understand the situation I put myself in. Hopefully some other new instructor can read my post and learn something....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #14 August 2, 2004 Thanks for the explanations. I used to JM students in the round days, in fact, I was wearing a round, too, so the wind was a huge factor. But I was lucky, we had a huge DZ in the desert. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #15 August 2, 2004 QuoteMaking jokes with someone who makes a little mistake (but nothing happened) is very cheap humor. At the DZ I jump we would kick that guys ass. It is - and I tend to get it twice as much as any of the other Instructors basically Because of My age and Experience. I appreciated your post.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #16 August 4, 2004 Shaun, Send me their names. I've got some great jokes we can post using their names in the punch line. Keep doing what you do. Live and learn. Be safe. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #17 August 6, 2004 QuoteOur Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Just curious, what does your dz see wrong with putting a 100# girl under a sabre 230 even on jump #1? That is still a really light w/l. fwiw, I weigh more and made my first jumps on a sabre 190 and was fine. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ffejdraga 0 #18 September 23, 2004 Screw them man, she lived, they all lived, the whole world is a dropzone. jeff D-16906 SL/AFF I since 1993/1997 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #19 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteOur Dropzone has students jump the Manta 288's until they are cleared for self-supervision, then they can use the Clubs Transition Rig, which has a Sabre 230. Just curious, what does your dz see wrong with putting a 100# girl under a sabre 230 even on jump #1? That is still a really light w/l. fwiw, I weigh more and made my first jumps on a sabre 190 and was fine. Angela. No comment on the instructor's choice.. but I was about 135 going through student ASP progression..and I was on a manta 288 until I was through my progression where I went down to a nav 240, then a nav 220, Sil210, PD190, and finally what I fly now is a Sab190. (although now I weigh about 145 and I'm pregnant...still flying my sab190) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #20 October 3, 2004 At Pitt Meadows, most IAD students jump Manta 290 or Skymaster 290 canopies. Sometimes we drop small first jump students with Skymaster 230s. We also have a 370 square foot big-boy rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
