TM: stable exits

[skydiverton 0]

My first tandem yesterday (about 400 tandems in total).
I was very happy I made a stable exit out of our C206. (Sit in door face prop)
We cleared the door perfect and inmediately after droque-setting the passenger freaked out (after 5 seconds in freefall) completely. kicking his legs and grabbing with his arms. I tried to correct him but het did not react at all. The guy was really fighting. So I decided to fly the tandem till about 6000ft (It was flyable). Than I did a quick pull and a very agressive X to maintain stability and allow the canopy to open correct.

Under canopy the passenger calmed down very quickly and told me he could not breath (I always tell the passengers If you can not breath yell as loud as possible)

I leard 3 thinks:
1) Never trust a passenger. They can freak out any moment (Passenger was reaction normal in the plane)
2) I stay with my stable exits instead of intentional loops
3) It supprized me how much control I still had (remaining heading) with a passenger kicking agressively and continiously grabing with his hands

Again: "a tandemjump is not just another jump"

Has someone experienced the same, how did you solve this?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[riggerrob 558]

In that scenario, I stretch my fingers and toes as far out as they will go, into the biggest "spread eagle", x-man I can muster.
If the student does not want to arch, I have arch enough for both of us.
Hee!
Hee!

[slotperfect 7]

After training them on the ground and double-checking their pre-exit body position in the door, I have done all I can do to make our exit a success.

Immediately upon exit, I am flying my own body. I don't concern myself with correcting the student's body position until I get the drogue out, which I am never in a hurry to do. I fly the exit first, when it's solid I deploy the drogue.

I might make one attempt to correct a totally wazoo student body position in drogue fall, after that I do like Rob said . . . I "get big" and fly myself, controlling unintentional turns with my legs (knees).

Arrive Safely

John

[SkydiveMO 0]

Quote

It surprised me how much control I still had (remaining heading) with a passenger kicking aggressively and continuously grabbing with his hands

The runners aren’t the problem, they are continually moving so there is no real net control input. There is a lot of fishing around underneath you though. The tough students I have found lock rigid in the most inconvenient body positions, like knees down in the fetal position or legs out straight but uneven. They make you really work.

I have luckily only experienced one student like you’ve described so far and my only fear was that they were going to grab my arms and hold on for dear life. I try to keep my hands and arms out of any “grab friendly” areas around the student. During the jump I wondered if it would be better to pull high and hope the student calms down under canopy or just wait it out since we were stable and have a shorter canopy ride. What do other tandem instructors think is the best option in this kind of situation?

[slotperfect 7]

Quote

During the jump I wondered if it would be better to pull high and hope the student calms down under canopy or just wait it out since we were stable and have a shorter canopy ride. What do other tandem instructors think is the best option in this kind of situation?

IMHO . . .

It's all about control. If I have control, albeit difficult, and feel that the situation is not deteriorating, I will continue the skydive with a big smile on my face. If my control over the situation begins to erode, I will deploy high.

Advantages to deploying high:

-the "life-saver" is overhead
-you can now effectively talk to your student
-things slow down immensely and help calm the student
-the TI can get the situation back under control

Disadvantages:

-hypoxia
-cold weather injuries
-student passing out due to poor circulation (being in the harness a long time)
-if the student is "grabby" and panicking, he can easily reach back and grab emergency handles
-landing out due to high winds at your unintentionally high opening altiitude or disorientation because of clouds in the neighborhood

I'm sure there are more issues on both sides of the coin . . . those are the ones that come to mind.

Arrive Safely

John

[linestretch 0]

agree with pulling high. Then you can spin them and make them sick for pissin you off.

he he he, just kidding, though sometimes I feel it.

my pics & stuff!

[mark135 0]

just wondering if any of you are doing tandems out of a 182? I have found the exit taught in t/m class just doesnt work ( poised exit) there is just to much the student has to help with and do more or less correctly. that leaves rolling out towards rear.

not bad but an unstable exit.


the other point is when the student puts legs straight out. (reverse arch) I havent had much luck with the big x so I tend to do a leg lock lock to bring them back which de arches me then let em go and get into big x. what do you ppl do?

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[skydiverton 0]

Did some tandems from a C182. Did not like it at all because of the climbing out and the reversed passenger position on the step. A bad body position will result very quickly in an unstable exit.

I can imagine what would have happend with the jump I mentioned in the first article if made out of a C182.

The dropzone I jump now has a C206 piston and a C206 turbine. Both with carco door.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I do a lot of C182 tandems during the week when there isn't enough traffic to keep the Otter up. I always have them sit on their heels like a baseball catcher out on the step, then I put my left foot out and dive to the rear. I have never been "taken on a ride" out of a Cessna.

Chuck

[mark135 0]

Quote

I can imagine what would have happend with the jump I mentioned in the first article if made out of a C182

more or less the same thing. flailing around (a little) doesnt bother me much. it just when I tap student on shoulder to arch and i can see their legs come out in front of them I tend to think " shit, here we go again, time to wrestle"

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

I do a lot of C182 tandems during the week when there isn't enough traffic to keep the Otter up. I always have them sit on their heels like a baseball catcher out on the step, then I put my left foot out and dive to the rear. I have never been "taken on a ride" out of a Cessna.

Chuck

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ditto.
The last time I did a poised exit from a Cessna was 14 years ago and that resulted in a bent reserve pin when the student stood up on the step, jamming me against the underside of the wing.
A visiting videogrpaher recently showed us footage of a posed exit where the door handle was trying hard to peel open the reserve pin cover.
In conclusion, poised exits are dangerous and obsolete.

On another note, I used to leg lock students, but eventually gave up on that practice. If they are truly clumbsy, I am not strong enough to pull their legs into a decent arch, so I just "get big" and arch my legs enough for the both of us. A few times I have arched so much that I landed with cramps in my hip flexor muscles!

[matthewcline 0]

Of my 420+ tandems most are from the 182. I tend to do the "baseball catcher" body position on both diving and forward facing exits. But I do not do any real "poised" exits. If the passnger is small and easy to manuever I just head staight out the door and we dive.

The examinor I trained under 'poises" all he tandems. 6'6" 250+lbs (the examonir) so I suppose it can be done pretty well with alot of practice (he has 2000+ tandems, most out of his 182)

But if I had my choice, the poised exit out of the
CH-47, just stand up, hook up walk to the edge and out you go, juts like the Casa or Skyvan.

Matt
SE-0299

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[riggerrob 558]

But if I had my choice, the poised exit out of the
CH-47, just stand up, hook up walk to the edge and out you go, just like the Casa or Skyvan.

Matt
SE-0299

[JohnMitchell 14]

I don't like the poised exits because of the reserve problem. I had a reserve deploy on exit from being stood up into the door. The diving exit seems a lot better, and it's pretty easy to get the drogue out on the hill, head down. what a freak out you had with that student. I've had a few flailers, but not that bad. I usually wrap their legs up with mine. They sure take the fun out of the dive, don't they?

[FreeflyGoat 0]

I got my first kicker, swimmer, screamer last weekend and i found it very easy to control compared to a few that had a real bad body position. The funny thing about it is he was a 240lbs guy kicking and screaming.

_________________________
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad

[skydiverton 0]

That might be an extra help if they are heavy. Less chance to become instable.

Did 14 tandems this weekend, no kickers this time

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig