hoym 0 #1 July 20, 2004 This is a two part question. First Question... Do you ever see or look at the medical statement part of the waiver that your tandem passengers fill out? Or do you rely on the manifest/office staff to review the waiver at the time the customer fills it out? Now I'll tell you about this 75 year old tandem passenger. We have the harness fitted and we're getting ready to walk to the airplane. She holds out her hand and says... “Here, you better hold onto this.” and drops a small vial into my hand. I pause a few seconds and then ask, “Oh, what's this?” Slight pause and then she says, “That's my nitro.” pause, pause, pause... “Ohhh, uh, you must have a small heart problem?” She looks me straight in the eye and says, “Nope,,,, It's a big one... Congestive heart failure. But this (skydive) is on my list and I'm going to every thing I can until I'm gone.” This lady was great and she had a great attitude. She had been a pilot since she was 20 years old and while she can't pass the physical for her pilot's license any more, she still flies when she can talk any pilot into taking her up. Anyway, attached is a picture of us after we jumped. And no, we didn't need the nitro. The second question is would you have taken her after learning about her heart condition? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #2 July 20, 2004 After we sat down and had a little chat about the possibilities/inherent dangers, hell yeah I would have taken her. I honestly believe people like this understand the dangers of jumping more than the college yahoos who decided to jump the night before at a keg party.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #3 July 20, 2004 Most instructors that I know work at big drop zones and do not look at the waiver, that's handled by the school office. Ideally the office team will see a medical condition listed and then get the manager and instructor involved in making the decision to jump. If the student mentioned the problem to me I would get back to the office staff and manager to confirm it was on the waiver and get their involvement. In this case I would want to know how long it had been since the last attack, and what triggers the attacks. Nitroglycerin is designed to dilate blood vessels, and is usually taken by the patient at the first sign of chest pain. The key problem for patients that carry nitro is usually a blocked coronary artery, that's the artery that supplies blood to the heart. A reduction in blood flow to the heart can cause cardiac damage and death. Nitro opens the blood vessels, but will also lower blood pressure. Since it will lower blood pressure, it is not recommended in cases where BP is already too low (generally systolic below 100). You may encounter cases of low blood pressure in a normal skydive just after landing. It is important to know when, and when not to administer nitroglycerin, and important for your student to understand physiological effects of skydiving that might aggravate or mask the underlying condition. You should understand that a trip to altitude reduces ambient pressure and oxygen delivery. 14,000 feet is about .6 ATM, so there is significantly less oxygen available than at the surface. If you are jumping at a DZ above MSL, there may be even less oxygen. Skydiving is also stressful, and that can limit muscular movement in the diaphram, further reducing oxygen intake. Stress can also reduce the efficiency of the heart muscle. If I was going to take the student, I would consider limiting the altitude and not going all the way to 14,000. If there is an EMT or doctor on the field I would make sure they were aware of the problem and ready to assist as needed. My key concern here would be to make sure the condition is stable, make sure the student understands the added risks, and then limit those risks with lower altitude skydives, at least initially.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 July 20, 2004 Quote Most instructors that I know work at big drop zones and do not look at the waiver, that's handled by the school office Even instructors like myself at "smaller" DZs don't see the paperwork. Its an easy habit to get into, of asking students about any medical problems or medication. If they lie to you there, they probably lied on their paperwork as well, so you wouldn't be able to know.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #5 July 20, 2004 Although we don't see the paperwork for our students, if they are over 60 they are required to have their cardiologist clear them for the jump. Yes it sounds just like it is... they need a letter from their doctor to do this. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #6 July 20, 2004 QuoteAlthough we don't see the paperwork for our students, if they are over 60 they are required to have their cardiologist clear them for the jump. Yes it sounds just like it is... they need a letter from their doctor to do this. Agree, When in doubt (age/illness) let the passenger consult their docter. Jumped with a man at least 80 years old. He got approval from his docter. Het did better than a lot of younger passengers. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #7 July 20, 2004 I've done it with a person in the same condition and approximate age. She's my mother-in-law, though, and I was sure I wouldn't be sued. Otherwise, it would be a concern. I'd have to talk to her and get a feel for her condition personally. Given her past experience, though, I think she’s got a good idea of how to judge her own capabilities. I’d most likely jump with her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cssriggers 0 #8 July 20, 2004 Hey Michael - miss you, man! Medical status of students is difficult. Overall, I'm more concerned about about their mentation and cognizance of risks involved than with their actual physical condition. At our DZ we have a sharp young woman with severe Multiple Sclerosis who gets actual perscriptions written from her doctor to come out and make a tandem skydive. She's in a wheelchair, with very little muscle control. (Not sure if the perscription is for insurance or what.) She's fully aware that she could get hurt on a bad landing. She has a ball, it's cool for us at the DZ., and she writes about it to inspire others. A few weeks ago I was asked to a first-jump briefing on a paraplegic man in his 40s. He was talking crazy - wanted to take his wheelchair along, wanted to do all canopy control himself, etc. Obviously he had no clue, so I said "no" to this one. In this instance it sounds like this was a sharp woman, aware of her mortality with a "to do before I die" list, and maybe not much time to complete it. As for the medical waiver: Landing a tandem back in Iowa, I had a guy break his ankle. I was ready to sell my gear and leave the sport. Turns out he'd lied on the waiver - didn't mention all of the surgeries that he'd had due to football injuries, which left him unable to lift his legs. I agree with getting a doctor's permission if it's questionable. I'm glad you went with your gut and gave this woman the great experience she had. (I'm betting she didn't need any nitro either - after all these years Dawn still goes on about how you were the most calm and safe instructor she had.)Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeTJumps 4 #9 July 20, 2004 WOW! What a confusing issue. I would have certainly asked for a Doctor's approval if I knew that situation. I am elated the everything came out right for you and her.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
docjohn 0 #10 July 21, 2004 In this age of medical/legal liability, do you really expect a physician to condone skydiving to anyone? Gimme a break! Good luck finding a physician who will put down on paper that it is OK for anyone at any age to skydive. If anything happens (heart attack, stroke, etc), it'll be his ass! Why would he stick his neck out so someone can make a jump? Sorry to be so paranoid but it comes with the job. That's why they call me "doc". Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
docjohn 0 #11 July 21, 2004 Looks like Inez to me. Oh yeah, I filmed that dive! Too bad we have to be so bogged down in liability issues. She had a blast! Thanks for taking her. If she had died, she'd have died happy. Then, here comes the family with their lawyer, yada yada. Sucks, doesn't it! Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #12 July 21, 2004 the funny thing is that I looked at the picture and thought...."which person are you talking about"? Glad she had a good time, and yes, why the hell not. You only die once.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #13 July 21, 2004 I think adults are well able to make their own decisions as long as they are aware of all the ramifications of what they are getting into.... Most quacks have as much idea of skydiving as I do about nuclear physics.......i.e. none....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #14 July 21, 2004 QuoteIn this age of medical/legal liability, do you really expect a physician to condone skydiving to anyone? Gimme a break! Good luck finding a physician who will put down on paper that it is OK for anyone at any age to skydive. If anything happens (heart attack, stroke, etc), it'll be his ass! Why would he stick his neck out so someone can make a jump? I took a dying, wheelchair-bound amputee on a tandem a couple weeks ago. He brought a notarized statement from his doctor stating that he was medically capable of skydiving and fully aware of his substantially increased risk factors. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #15 July 21, 2004 one of the VP's at my work wanted to come out and do a Tandem. Being over 60 years old, we needed the note from his heart doc. So he went there and the heart doc sent him out for a bunch of xams and even some weird ones. One week later, doctor cleared him, by saying "I;ll give you the note since there is nothing wrong with you, but I would not encourage that you do it since you are not in optimal shape." He smokes and is shortwinded at times. He is currently starting to work out so that he can do it next year. Some doctors will clear you based on your health and not their feelings about skydiving. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BBKid 0 #16 July 22, 2004 QuoteIn this age of medical/legal liability, do you really expect a physician to condone skydiving to anyone? Gimme a break! Good luck finding a physician who will put down on paper that it is OK for anyone at any age to skydive. If anything happens (heart attack, stroke, etc), it'll be his ass! Why would he stick his neck out so someone can make a jump? Sorry to be so paranoid but it comes with the job. That's why they call me "doc". Hmm, in the UK anyone over the age of 40 without skydiving experience has to get a doctor's note before they can jump. The doc's regularly give out these notes, so I really don't see it being a big deal, unless the compensation culture in the US really is as bad as everyone makes out! Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #17 July 23, 2004 Take some extra time to talk things over. The likely result would be a yes. I took a guy with a brain tumor who had recently had a stroke. He had almost no muscle control on the right side of his body. It took a little extra planning and a lot of extra muscle work, but it was worth it for both of us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #18 July 23, 2004 Quote unless the compensation culture in the US really is as bad as everyone makes out! it is~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites