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sabr190

TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why?

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Likewise. Zero tandem reserve rides in 500 tandems. Pack me a lineover and I will literally kick your ass. Totally unacceptable. It's for that reason that I always try to pack my own stuff (flat pack), and will then only allow a trusted colleague to do it if I can't. I have only ever allowed one person to PRO pack tandems for me and that person knew I would fire them if they ever packed a lineover.




man, that's a sad way to think. We use icarus 330's, and 300's here, and pro-pack all of them. We easily do 100+ jumps EACH a month (5-6 TM's on staff), and to add to it, there are no brake settings on these. The only mals here have been tension knots. Take the blinders off dude, shit happens in this sport. Now, I would be pissed if I had a step through...that's another story.
my pics & stuff!

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Before I started this thread/poll I would have never thought of someone packing a step-through on my tandem or my personal rig either. Shit does happen, agreed? But, packing a step through deserves five across the eye.>:(

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa


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Two reserve rides out of about 700 tandems. First one was a toggle wouldn't release during my terminal tandem with an instructor. Think that's your third or fourth tandem? Second was the drogue wrapped around the right steering lines and giving me a decent turn. Probably could have landed it but I didn't want to find out I was wrong the hard way.

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does anyone flat-pack icarus mains?



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I will absolutely flat pack Icarus/Precision tandem mains.



I started out flat-packing Icarus Tandems, then went to PRO-packing them a few times. Quite frankly, I just didn't feel like I could maintain the line order & line tension as well as a flat pack, so went back to flat packing.

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Likewise. Zero tandem reserve rides in 500 tandems. Pack me a lineover and I will literally kick your ass. Totally unacceptable. It's for that reason that I always try to pack my own stuff (flat pack), and will then only allow a trusted colleague to do it if I can't. I have only ever allowed one person to PRO pack tandems for me and that person knew I would fire them if they ever packed a lineover



As a tandem Instructor for a few years I have had 11 tandem reserve rides out of over 1500. One was a total (drogue in tow) and the rest have been either line-overs or general big messes. As a tandem instructor I like it when the main works, but the one I really care about is the reserve. When you are doing 10 to 13 tandems in a day you don't have time to pack your own. Know your rigger well or make sure you pack the reserve yourself (if you are a rigger of course). Malfunctions do just happen sometimes (including line-overs), but controled packing helps greatly. I'd say I've been pretty unlucky with the whole jumps to malfunctions ratio (never packed one myself), but I'd still say only about half of my malfunctions were due to bad packing. The only thing you know for sure after leaving the plane is that you will arrive at the ground eventually. Getting mad at your packer is a bad idea. They will be your packer tomorrow. Even a perfect pack job (if there is such a thing) can have a line-over. Be kind to packers. I'm happy with the openings as long as they are soft.



To be honest, I kind of like them now. (kidding)
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If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see

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6 in 600 tandemjumps

#1) Broken steering line (Cause unknown)
#2) Tension Knot (fuzzy lines)
We asked a rigger for a reline afterwards, but he said it wasn't nessesary.
#3) Tension Knot (fuzzy lines)
Same canopy, we got the canopy relined.
#4) Lineover (packing error?)
#5) Lineover (packing error?)
Both of the lineovers were on (our only) eliptical tandem canopy (contrail) that requires pro-packing... The other reserves were on F111 Squares which are flat packed.
#6) BROKEN RISER!!! (skary shit)
It appears the small ring attachment failed on deployment. The manufacturer insured us it was not a standard flipthrough of the rings, in that case the middle ring would be dammaged and it wasn't. It was on the NON RSL side)

Barry

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Getting mad at your packer is a bad idea. They will be your packer tomorrow. Even a perfect pack job (if there is such a thing) can have a line-over. Be kind to packers. I'm happy with the openings as long as they are soft



I will go on record as completely disagreeing here. If someone packed lineovers at the school I was running, then I would fire them and they would not be my problem anymore. Kind to packers? That's a joke. It's a job; a high paying one. Packers at my last dropzone made more than I did as the manager/AFF instructor/tandem monkey. If you cannot perform the job to satisfaction, then you need to be replaced. There are a LOT of people around who will willingly relocate around the country to get a packing job at a busy dropzone. I am not unfriendly by any means, but packing errors of the type that lead to needless malfunctions are simply unacceptable. 11 tandem reserve rides? You need to get a job at a place with better maintained equipment and/or better packing. Yes, your reserve is your lifeline and you would hope that it is maintained to the highest standards when you have two lives that depend on it, but it need not be used with such flippant nonchalance. Your reserve is your last chance. Willfully accepting that "malfunctions just happen" (at that frequency) and that one must accept a packjob from a known "problem packer" is ludicrous. Likewise, willfully jumping faulty and ill-maintained tandem equipment is incredibly wreckless.

I will not accept a packjob from a person who's is any less thorough than mine and that is not asking a lot; I can pack a tandem in ten minutes. You shouldn't either. There are actually quite a few busy operations out there that have fantastically low malfunction rates. Those places take the time to get the job done safely and maintain their equipment to the degree that is neccessary.

I have a very-good friend named Robert St. John who took a job at one of the very busy dropzones out at that resort in the desert. He told me casually that he had 11 reserve rides in six months. All from one or two staff packers. I told him I could not and would not ever consider working at such an operation, no matter how much money they offered me. My safety and the safety of my passenger means more to me than that.

In the end, I guess it's all about what you are willing to put up with in pursuit of that dollar bill. I am a grown man with a pension and I will absolutely not put up with any bullshit packing or maintenance issues; I don't need the money. If any of you choose to just accept poor maintenance, sloppy packing and think that you must tread lightly with your staff packers, then carry on; I don't and won't.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO, former S&TA and school manager

-edited for spelling.

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On a tandem propack, just setting the canopy on the ground can give you the proper setup for a lineover. Unless you have a method for putting the lines back in the center of a packjob.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Its kinda hard to explain but very easy to show. After I put the canopy on the ground, I find the lines on the side of the packjob with my hands/fingers, and roll them to the middle. Then I pick out the top skin and tighten it back up. Continue as normal.

Like I said, its really hard to explain but really easy to show.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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4 malfunctions in about 750 tandems. All on Strong gear w/ SET 400's. First one was tension knots. Second one was an 1800' snivel down to 3200 feet where it finally popped with 3 collapsed cells on each side and line twists. Third one was on that same canopy a week later, very similar. (We relined that parachute and it was fine after that.) Last one was tension knot holding the slider up and canopy fabric from the nose stuck thru the slider grommet and a wicked left hand turn.

I have been jumping Sigmas and Eclipses for the last 250 tandems with no malfunctions.

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I didn't actually mean to come off as flippant. I'm actually considered a pretty anal tandem instructor. I believe that good, clean, organized packing is a necessity. I also believe that getting mad at people is the wrong way to educate them. Every time I have had a malfunction I have made it a point to speak to the packer, let them know what kind of malfunction I had, and suggest the appropriate remedy. Yes, you are risking two people on a tandem and it should be taken very very seriously, but everyone makes mistakes occasionaly.

Another thing to consider in my case is that all my tandems are spread out over many DZ's. I've had a particilarly bad run of malfunctions, but honestly I believe that nearly all my malfunctions were a result of picking up the wrong rig, on the wrong day, at the wrong place. Basically, a larger degree of bad luck than most people run into. The gear has nearly always been in good repair (only one malfunction may have been a result of poor upkeep), and all the packers have been very competent.

Anyway... Your view is valid as well and I respect it. This is just mine.
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If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see

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>As a tandem instructor I like it when the main works, but the one I
>really care about is the reserve.

Reserves can malfunction too. Adam (one of our TM's) rode a reserve lineover into a bog at Otay years ago; both he and the student survived. One of the best ways to avoid the chance of a reserve mal is to not have main mals.

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2600+ tandems and have yet had the need to use my reserve.



That's AWESOME! What an achievement! I'd be interested to know what kind of equipment you done tandems with, and how many of those jumps were with rigs you packed yourself.

I have another comment, but rather than hijack this thread I posted it HERE instead. It's a very similar subject, but I don't want to choke off this poll thread.
Arrive Safely

John

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635 tandems and 3 chops. [:/]

All cutaways happened during about a 325 jump window on an EZ 425. I replaced it with a Sigma 395 that has been flawless for about 155 jumps. All were lineovers that were probably packed in. There were FOUR more spinning line overs on the same canopy that I worked with and cleared. Add to that one more chop after I gave the canopy to the DZ and this EZ 425 had EIGHT mals in 400 jumps.

Sigma canopies rock.
:)
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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The lowest tandem malfunction rate I've heard of, for an entire DZ, is one mal in 7,500 jumps at Las Vegas. They, of course, flat pack. Dz's that flat pack have consistently lower tandem malfunction rates than those who PROpack. I'm sure the reason is that line-overs are far easier to pack when you PROpack.

When some DZ's have a tandem mal every few hundred jumps, and others every few thousand jumps (on identical equipment) the only reason has to be packing.

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The lowest tandem malfunction rate I've heard of, for an entire DZ, is one mal in 7,500 jumps at Las Vegas. They, of course, flat pack. Dz's that flat pack have consistently lower tandem malfunction rates than those who PROpack. I'm sure the reason is that line-overs are far easier to pack when you PROpack.

When some DZ's have a tandem mal every few hundred jumps, and others every few thousand jumps (on identical equipment) the only reason has to be packing.



Bill - correct me if I am wrong - but didn't you do a study showing that an agressive policy on line set replacements, and brake line maintenance also helped lower the amount of lineovers you were getting on the EZ canopies?

I thought I overheard that somewhere and would prefer to hear from the source what you found out.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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Absolutely! Suspension lines that are old (dirty and fuzzy) tend to stick together and knot more than new lines. That's why we recommend line replacement at 300 jumps. We learned this by the analysis of tens of thousands of tandem jump reports from the waiver period. Malfunction rates on canopies with over 300 jumps on a line set are nearly double those on canopies with line sets under 300 jumps.

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