Joe Herman's impromptu Mr. Bill jump

[Liemberg 0]

Recently on twitter someone told an (in my opinion) highly unlikely story about a WW2 pilot bailing out of a desintegrating Halifax bomber at night over Germany without a parachute above 12000ft and by sheer coincidence meeting up with his mid-upper gunner at around 5000ft, grabbing the gunners legs in mid-air at the exact moment the gunner opened his parachute and holding on to those legs throughout the opening.

Both men supposedly landed under that one parachute, evaded capture by the Germans for four days and survived the war as POW's.

My bullshit-detector went of the scale as one can imagine but the story was apparently told in a television show. The guys name is "Joe Herman" and of course I searched this forum for that name but found no hits.

(For those interested there is a website with the story and a tape recording of Joe Herman telling his story: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C386640)

Now of course this would have been the first Mr. Bill jump in history, and it is a terrible waste to check a good story to death but nevertheless I would imagine that the inevitable 'true or false' question has the best chance of getting a half way believable answer on this here forum - if it really happened a few of you guys would know about it...
So my question is: True or False? (My money is on False of course...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[obelixtim 100]

I think your bullshit detector is working OK.

I would say false. With the adrenalin overload these guys would have been experiencing, even if they did bump into each other, I doubt they would have had the reaction time to do what he claimed.

We all know how difficult it can be to pin a newbie in FF, and that's with them briefed, falling reasonably stable. Two newbies experiencing FF for the first time. probably at night....no chance.

There was also a WW1 story of a pilot that claimed to have fallen out of his plane at the top of a loop in a dogfight, the plane continued the loop and he landed back in the cockpit at the bottom of the loop, and successfully landed the plane.

Apparently he was believed, and maybe even decorated for it.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Tim,

Quote

I would say false.

I would agree.

My former wife had an uncle ( RIP Ray ) who manned a machine gun on a bomber in WWII. He had to bail out over Netherlands. He exited with the chest pack in his hands & clipped it on in freefall. I have talked to him about this jump of his a number of times. He had one thought on his mind; get the gut pack clipped on.

Jerry Baumchen

[pchapman 261]

I have seen that Harman (& Vivash) tale in various aviation books over the years and it has become pretty accepted in that sense, and not just pulled out of thin air.

But I always thought that tale was rather iffy -- but I can't be sure it is impossible. I'll believe in amazing luck in wartime. (For example, take 1000 people, hunt 990 to death, and you'll have 10 with amazing stories of impossible escapes and dodging more bullets than a Hollywood movie.)

With Herman it was the nearly unbelievable physics that concerned me.

The story is much more iffy than say the ones about Nick Alkemade or Lt. Chisov falling without a parachute into trees and snow and surviving, which is also in accepted history.

Bailout rigs would have had undiapered, canopy-first openings, with no staging or reefing yet developed. So I would imagine some brutal openings. But who knows, maybe the occasional rare, messy opening actually was slower, if the canopy entangled or streamered for a few seconds by chance?? One version of the story I saw said the canopy did open slowly, as part of its explanation.

So who knows. I'm a bit sceptical but can't say I know for sure that WWII parachutes opened hard 99.999% of the time.

I had sometimes wondered if Herman had survived something where he didn't have a parachute, but got the details wrong due to concussion or whatever in battle. Did he grab another crew member as the plane first came apart rather than after a long freefall? Although broken heavy aircraft do often fall fast themselves so sometimes one would be slowing down to terminal, so that idea isn't a great explanation either.

I still have to listen to that very grainy audio -- interesting find! -- to hear a fuller story as he told it. Can you summarize it if you have listened and could make out what he was saying?

I would want more details about the circumstances and how it was reported and documented, before being more certain about any conclusions.

The best amateur site I've seen on long freefall survival is
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html. It's a collection of stories, and while the author can't verify or debunk everything, he does seem to be reasonable and not sensationalistic. He has collected a whole bunch of tales all in one place. Herman's tale is in the "Other Amazing Stories" section, but without much detail. He does have an "Unlucky skydivers" section too.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

Can you summarize it if you have listened and could make out what he was saying?

I listened to the tape for about 5 minutes and then gave up - I'm 'double handicapped' here since I have trouble with the sound quality (as everybody else) but also I'm not really good in Australian accent.

Quote

I would want more details about the circumstances and how it was reported and documented, before being more certain about any conclusions.

So would I but all I managed to find with the help of 'google' was another website repeating the one I gave in my first post on the subject.
Not really helpful - for it is typically (IMO) the kind of story people want to believe to be true - without any real knowledge of 'the physics of parachute openings' like one develops with a few 1000 jumps and a few decades in the sport.
The thing is that for instance the Alkemade story - complete with Germans not wanting to believe him, the incredible odds of hitting a snowy slope, etcetera has been around as long as I can remember - I even saw it pictured in a cartoon magazine when I was a kid while this story which is as remarkable I had never heard of until this week.
No cartoons, no film - nothing, as far as I can tell.
That and countless 'Mr, Bill' jumps made by the skydiving community makes me verry skeptic...

And for the 'incredible strenght at the moment you are holding on for dear life'? In 1997 in the Netherlands a pilot bailed out of a cripled C206 without an emergency rig, holding on to another jumper who pulled immediatly. The pilot lost grips and fell to his death...

Last observation: But why would he tell such a story when it wasn't true? Beats me but I know that people tell bullshit stories all the time for all kinds of reasons...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Peter,

Quote

Bailout rigs would have had undiapered, canopy-first openings, with no staging or reefing yet developed. So I would imagine some brutal openings.

Yuppers, BTDT - twice on gut packs. Both openings will live in my memory forever.

Jerry Baumchen

[obelixtim 100]

Liemberg

Quote

Can you summarize it if you have listened and could make out what he was saying?

I listened to the tape for about 5 minutes and then gave up - I'm 'double handicapped' here since I have trouble with the sound quality (as everybody else) but also I'm not really good in Australian accent.
***I would want more details about the circumstances and how it was reported and documented, before being more certain about any conclusions.

So would I but all I managed to find with the help of 'google' was another website repeating the one I gave in my first post on the subject.
Not really helpful - for it is typically (IMO) the kind of story people want to believe to be true - without any real knowledge of 'the physics of parachute openings' like one develops with a few 1000 jumps and a few decades in the sport.
The thing is that for instance the Alkemade story - complete with Germans not wanting to believe him, the incredible odds of hitting a snowy slope, etcetera has been around as long as I can remember - I even saw it pictured in a cartoon magazine when I was a kid while this story which is as remarkable I had never heard of until this week.
No cartoons, no film - nothing, as far as I can tell.
That and countless 'Mr, Bill' jumps made by the skydiving community makes me verry skeptic...

And for the 'incredible strenght at the moment you are holding on for dear life'? In 1997 in the Netherlands a pilot bailed out of a cripled C206 without an emergency rig, holding on to another jumper who pulled immediatly. The pilot lost grips and fell to his death...

Last observation: But why would he tell such a story when it wasn't true? Beats me but I know that people tell bullshit stories all the time for all kinds of reasons...

The Alkemede story was disbelieved, until a Luftwaffe pilot examined his harness and proved that he had not used his parachute.

The liftwebs (risers) were tacked to the harness, and on opening would break the tiedowns so the jumper would be suspended from the shoulders.

The risers were found to be still tacked to the harness, proving he could not have used the parachute.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

There was also a WW1 story of a pilot that claimed to have fallen out of his plane at the top of a loop in a dogfight, the plane continued the loop and he landed back in the cockpit at the bottom of the loop, and successfully landed the plane.

Apparently he was believed, and maybe even decorated for it.

Actually, there are TWO WW1 stories of aviators falling out of their aircrafts and getting back inside. Both are rather well documented with eye-witness accounts and/or photografic evidence.
First there was lieutenant Louis A Strange (RFC) who had his Martynside S1 aircraft suddenly flip upside down as he stood up to change the ammunition drum of his Lewis machine gun during a 'dogfight'.
Holding on to the machinegun drum he managed to get back inside and get the aircraft back in an upright position at 500ft. He was cited by his CO for "causing unnecessary damage to his instrument panel and seat " - after the war he came in contact with the Germans who were also in the fight and he asked them why they didn't shoot him down when they had the opportunity.
"Shoot you down?" they replied, "We were clapping and cheering for you!"
The other story is about Oberleutnant Georg Behrla who fell out of a Albatros C.V 1211/16 flown by Vizefeldwebel Fritz Rosengart.
"Shortly after reaching 4,500 metres altitude, Rosengart sees some enemy fighters and throws the aircraft into a spin, pinning Behrla to the observer's cockpit floor. Rosengart levels off at 4,100 metres and Behrla stands up to aim his machine gun. At that exact moment the Albatros hits an air pocket and drops, leaving Behrla floating three metres above the plane. The machine stops dropping and Behrla crashes through the fuselage deck just behind his cockpit. Stuck there until Rosengart can land the aircraft, Behrla is none the worse for his misadventure."

(the attachment shows Behrla and Rosengart after landing in their damaged plane)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[obelixtim 100]

Those two are a lot more believable. And of course with witnesses and photos.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[chuckakers 370]

obelixtim

I think your bullshit detector is working OK.

Maybe, but this...

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/highest-fall-survived-without-parachute/

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[mr2mk1g 10]

I have a book containing the Nick Alkemade story, including photographs and artefacts (IIRC a letter from the camp commander certifying the story or something similar). I can try and scan some if anyone's interested.

[Liemberg 0]

Ms Vulovic was inside the tail section of that DC9 during her descent. So actually she was flying an 'improvised' airplane / autogiro and never completely in freefall. (most of us 'old farts' have seen how ripcords and cut-away cables started to spin and slow down upon acceleration of their spin...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[MikeJD 0]

When I first read this story as a teenager, I'd envisaged the collision between the two airmen having happened almost as soon as they'd left the aircraft, while the guy with the parachute was deploying. It seems unlikely to me that a first-time jumper bailing out of a plane would wait very long before getting a canopy out (unless for some reason he had been struggling to do so).

I wonder if the tale just got taller with the telling, to the point where the chuteless airman had freefallen for thousands of feet before his encounter with the other guy - because I think my version would make the rescue far more viable. If the parachute wearer was deploying at sub-terminal, the canopy may well have been opening 'behind him' due to the throw-forward effect, which would have left him exposed for the other airman to collide with his legs. The forces involved would probably have been lesser too.

I also agree that due to the sheer numbers of bail-outs that there must have been during the war it's certainly possible that this could really have happened - it only had to happen once.

[SCS292 1]

MikeJD

It seems unlikely to me that a first-time jumper bailing out of a plane would wait very long before getting a canopy out (unless for some reason he had been struggling to do so).

If people are shooting at you from the ground, a shorther canopy ride might be advisable.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi 292,

Quote

If people are shooting at you from the ground

Since it has been over 50 yrs since I got out of the military and things do change, but I do believe that this is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Convention; not that everyone complies. :(



Jerry Baumchen

[MikeJD 0]

SCS292

*** It seems unlikely to me that a first-time jumper bailing out of a plane would wait very long before getting a canopy out (unless for some reason he had been struggling to do so).

If people are shooting at you from the ground, a shorther canopy ride might be advisable.

Agreed, but if you're finding yourself at short notice in freefall for the first time ever, I doubt you'd have the presence of mind to think about stuff like that. I'd expect your first instinct would be to get a parachute above your head - I'm pretty sure it would have been mine.