propblast 0 #1 November 18, 2015 Can someone discuss the correct breaking or landing procedures under a PC or other toggle round. Is there a correct way of landing on your feet without a plf roll. Btw: I have he crash on the ground under my PC method completely figured out.Propblast Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,114 #2 November 19, 2015 Part 1: be light enough Part 2: be young enough to withstand a really solid landing Part 3: crash often enough to really know your descent rate Part 4: face into the wind Part 5: at just the right moment, grab your rear risers and use them to flare just AS you're hitting the ground. The idea is either to stop as much forward motion as you can, or reduce downward speed with the pull-up. Not sure either theory is valid, but it's what I always did. I have about 500 round jumps, probably 400 or so of them stand ups. The direction of landing is down, not forward. Imagine you just jumped off a 4-foot platform. Timing is hard, simply because your mind knows when you're going to land based on jumping off an object and accelerating until you land. Since you're at a constant speed under canopy, your natural reaction is to misjudge. That's what you need to overcome by crashing often enough first. The last time I jumped a round, a couple of years ago, I PLF'd. Because it'd been at least thirty-five years since my previous round jump, and I knew the timing would be off. Not to mention that I collected enough badass points just by jumping the Starlite; didn't need to stand it up Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #3 November 19, 2015 If you grab the riser risers and time it right you can cause the parachute to oscillate and if you do it right you can land on the up part of it. I have done a fair bit of stand ups under rounds and I am coming in at 220 lbs. The stand ups put a fair bit of stress on the joints if you are heavy and I just gave up with them do PLFs. Overall they are much easier on someone of my size. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drjump 0 #4 November 20, 2015 Wendy-the day of your last round canopy jump was an outstanding demonstration of a proper PLF! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #5 November 20, 2015 Only for you was it a FOUR foot platform.But I did stand up the 35' T-10 and my Comp PC fairly routinely. But also us old folks are REALLY good at PLF's. When we trained students for 35' T-10 we made them jump off the roof of the cab of a pickup, about 6 feet, forward and backwards and rolling in each direction. I made a round jump, Phantom 28', after about 18 years, and 50 lbs, and hit the pea gravel.I'd make lots of round jumps if I lost some weight. They're nice and quiet!I never did do much with the Wile E Coyote climb the riser flare. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #6 November 20, 2015 Hi prop, Quote correct breaking or landing procedures under a PC Everyone, including me, is offering opinions; to take them for what they are. IMO be facing into the wind, just before touchdown do a nice full-brake landing, don't use rear risers; PC's have very light toggle loads. Lowell Bachman, late owner of ParaGear, was a many times US Nationals judge. He would always make the wind dummy jump. He did not do the normal down-wind, crash & bash accuracy jump. He always turned, fairly high up, for a nice up-wind landing. One year he got a dead center doing this. It can be done; but do not count on it. Jerry Baumchen PC Ser #363 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propblast 0 #7 November 21, 2015 JerryBaumchen Hi prop, Quote correct breaking or landing procedures under a PC Everyone, including me, is offering opinions; to take them for what they are. IMO be facing into the wind, just before touchdown do a nice full-brake landing, don't use rear risers; PC's have very light toggle loads. Lowell Bachman, late owner of ParaGear, was a many times US Nationals judge. He would always make the wind dummy jump. He did not do the normal down-wind, crash & bash accuracy jump. He always turned, fairly high up, for a nice up-wind landing. One year he got a dead center doing this. It can be done; but do not count on it. Jerry Baumchen PC Ser #363 Thanks to all. Jerry, I agree with your grain of salt. I have well over 100 round landings on various modified canopies. I always plf as it is what I was taught. I just figured if I keep jumping this PC I'd see what I can do with it. Which means I'll probably just plf.Propblast Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #8 November 21, 2015 I'm no expert on PC landings so I'll cop out and see what the Gary Lewis ParaCommander Handbook has to say. It gives both the riser and the toggle option. OCR from the handbook: QuoteChapter Five: LANDINGS Accuracy landings will be covered later. Now we are talking about making nice, easy landings. NO WIND In little or no wind, determine, if possible, where the wind was earlier or where it usually comes from and face into it. Leave the toggles up until 4' to 6' from the ground. Now you have two choices. 1. Pull down to 1/2 brakes (no more) and land with a forward roll or running standup (experienced people only please). 2. Leave the toggles full up (full speed speed) and pull the back risers down 1 foot. This will momentarily increase lift and reduce speed. Properly done, it makes for easy standups. Done too low, you roll Into the ground harmlessly, but humorously. Done too high (5 to 10') is also humorous, you just stop up there, destination unknown. Usually you let up on the risers and land a little harder. MEDIUM WIND - 3 - 10 MPH. Face into the wind and as you pass through 10' (low wind) or 5' (higher wind) pull the toggles down (slowly in low wind, briskly in higher wind) to equalize your canopy forward speed with the wind condition. Result, an easy landing with no forward speed to absorb and minimum descent rate. Easy fall-down or standup. Practice doing this at a "too low" altitude. Done "too high" your first point of contact may be the back of your head ("stalled again"). I didn't include the High Wind info, as that gets into more complex 90 degree hook turns! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #9 November 21, 2015 On any round always prepare to PLF. Occasionally with the right wind conditions, and fairly lightweight body weight you might get a standup. Taking your weight on the back risers just as you touch down might help you stand up. If you pull down on the toggles the canopy will sink out. If you try to stand up every landing, you will break bones.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #10 November 22, 2015 All of my really nice stand ups have been with the rear riser flair method, toggles will pound you in. I always expect a PLF.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdobleman 0 #11 November 23, 2015 Rear riser flares worked well for me on my Sparrow, but I was always ready to PLF. One thing not mentioned here yet, always look up and make sure you have the rear risers, due to the configuration it was easy to reach up and grab the front risers if you didn't look, resulting in much harder landings. madjohn Main goals in life: Be on the "Jumpers Over Eighty" (JOE) World Record and attend the Lost Prairie Boogie once after I'm gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,114 #12 November 23, 2015 I'm still always ready to PLF on a square Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #13 November 24, 2015 I found stand up landings impossible on my tired old C-9 surplus round. Well over 100 jumps on it and NOT ONE STANDUP. It was either PLF or orthopedic surgery. Easy choice. I seldom had trouble standing up my PC, after being used to such harsh high descent rate landings under the "cheapo" C-9. I didn't use any special technique. I was pretty light back then and that helped. I was told that flaring a PC was pointless. Didn't feel any positive vertical Gs when I tried it up high. Never tried it on a landing. Listen to Beatnik. He is da man on the vintage gear that most of us got rid of forty years ago. He doesnt just collect that stuff, he JUMPS it. I'm proud of my round jumps, even nostalgic. But would I do them again? NO THANKS. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shotandahalf 0 #14 November 24, 2015 Wendy, you nailed it. And by the way the only round I ever stood up was a jumbo PC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 1 #15 November 24, 2015 wmw999 Part 1: be light enough Part 2: be young enough to withstand a really solid landing Part 3: crash often enough to really know your descent rate Part 4: face into the wind Part 5: at just the right moment, grab your rear risers and use them to flare just AS you're hitting the ground. The idea is either to stop as much forward motion as you can, or reduce downward speed with the pull-up. Not sure either theory is valid, but it's what I always did. I have about 500 round jumps, probably 400 or so of them stand ups. The direction of landing is down, not forward. Imagine you just jumped off a 4-foot platform. Timing is hard, simply because your mind knows when you're going to land based on jumping off an object and accelerating until you land. Since you're at a constant speed under canopy, your natural reaction is to misjudge. That's what you need to overcome by crashing often enough first. The last time I jumped a round, a couple of years ago, I PLF'd. Because it'd been at least thirty-five years since my previous round jump, and I knew the timing would be off. Not to mention that I collected enough badass points just by jumping the Starlite; didn't need to stand it up Wendy P. I can work hard and accomplish Part 1. I've already done Part 3. I know about Parts 4 & 5. It's Part 2 that I'm having trouble with. 5 or 6 hundred jumps on a PC, 100 on a Piglet I, 4 or 5 hundred on a Starlite. Never had much trouble standing them up. My low pack volume experiment with a 26' Navy conical on the other hand... It had a pulled down apex, turn slots, and a triple dog house mod. It had all the drive of a wind drift indicator but came down faster. I told all my students that the PLF was one of the most important things they would learn that day. Their emergency procedures would change as they got new and different gear but the PLF they learned that day would be the same PLF that would save their ass (and ankles, legs, and hips) a thousand jumps later.Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,114 #16 November 24, 2015 Yeah, I think my comment about PLF was that they could afford to mess up their launch, the freefall, canopy control, and probably still walk away smiling if they did a good PLF. You HAVE to land. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dzswoop717 5 #17 November 25, 2015 I made 19 jumps on my 19th birthday using 4 rigs. A couple of buddies were packing for me and it only took a couple of hours. I used 2 gutter mount rigs with PC's and 2 Top Secret containers with Seaira lite canopies. I had 18 stand up landings in the peas and one stand up just outside the peas. I always pulled down on my rear risers just as my feet were about to touch the ground, but that was 34 years and 80 pounds ago. One round jump would send me to the hospital today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #18 December 2, 2015 There ought to be an award patch, an orange and white embroidered C-9 image with a number in the middle, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500 etc signifying how many CHEAPO landings you survived. I'd sure buy one. Took guts backing up in a 15 knot wind and coming down fast. I never even came close to standing one up. Beatnik is a good graphical designer but he is flying combat support missions near ISIS territory at the moment. Maybe when he returns... 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary0302 0 #19 December 3, 2015 Hi propblast, I think it would be also good to add that the canopy should be given time to settle down after any types of turns or corrections. Here is a link to a video showing a typical stand up landing under a Piglet II using rear risers. You can see that the risers are pulled down relatively quickly; go to just before 4:58 on the video. There are other examples of stand up landings on the video, but it's more difficult to see what actions the jumpers took in order to be successful; decent examples of PLFs too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT50OdOwAXEGary David Holbrook on Facebook/YouTube, D-5857, SCS 3657, NSCR 1219, Former S/L Instructor, Former Wizards 4-way RW, Former SE Conference Judge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #20 December 3, 2015 GREAT films, thanks so much for sharing them here. Really brings back the good old days when our chutes were round and we were square. 377 first jump 1968, still active.2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propblast 0 #21 December 4, 2015 Fantastic Video Gary. I really enjoyed all 1 plus minutes.Propblast Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #22 December 7, 2015 Feet and knees together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rfogle 0 #23 December 9, 2015 After jumping 7TU's and 5LL's the Paracommander was much easier on the landings. I changed to a PC on my 22nd jump and thought it was really a hot parachute. When we weren't jumping (1970) we towed it behind my VW or truck and took non-jumpers for rides, letting them cut the tow rope loose and land it just fine. Nobody ever got a scratch (see pictures). We use to tow the PC behind the Preston Royal library next to the Dallas North Toll Road that was just opened, its all houses nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
