jclalor 12 #1 January 24, 2010 When I started jumping in the early eighties it was called R-dub or RW, took a brief 25 year break and now it's call FF. When did it change and why? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #2 January 24, 2010 I only half pay attention to this as I'm not a RW flyer and I don't compete. But I think it's FS - not FF - for Formation Skydiving. And for all I know someone wanted to get rid of "work" as part of the name. I still call it RW though. Thing is, eventually there will be fewer people who will know what I mean. I think the change was initiated by USPA for reasons only they fully understand or care about. After all, it doesn't matter what it's called when it comes to turning points. So who really cares? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #3 January 24, 2010 RW to FS: I don't recall the real story either, but I thought it was from the international, FAI level, to have names for disciplines that were rational to the outside world and public, and not just a historical artifact of skydiver speak. At least, the names have been adopted at the FAI level. Doesn't mean we can't informally use the skydiver speak. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #4 January 24, 2010 and crw has changed to cfs -- or canopy formation skydiving....If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 1 #5 January 24, 2010 Quote RW to FS: I don't recall the real story either, but I thought it was from the international, FAI level, to have names for disciplines that were rational to the outside world and public, and not just a historical artifact of skydiver speak. At least, the names have been adopted at the FAI level. Doesn't mean we can't informally use the skydiver speak. A rose by any other name ,,, would funnel just as badly. Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #6 January 24, 2010 I remember that change and didn't really like it. After RW became FS (for formation skydiving, right, or did they change it again?) I wrote to USPA fearing what was next. I closed with, "Fine, while you're in the designated horizontal practice pad area I'll still be dirt diving! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #7 January 25, 2010 > When did it change and why? When was a couple decades ago. Why is a mystery to me too (sort of). RW, relative work, used to mean people flying in freefall relative to one another. There was nothing in there about formations, hookups, body positions, points or anything else. Viewed from a couple miles away everybody is falling like a brick, but when you're up close doing it it feels like you're really flying around. That's what it still means to me. Formation skydiving is a really restricted form where people are doing hookups as fast or as big as they can for people on the ground called judges. In freeflying the emphasis switched to body position. Sit flying makes sense to me because we are built to see from an upright position and the visual aspect is a big part of it for me. Head down, other than to try it a few times, makes no sense to me, you can't see where you're going, and you're going there really fast! :-) :-) What I really think is more complicated than that, with a lot of hedging and allowing for other viewpoints and motives and situations and history, but to me, the words "relative work" still mean flying around relative to other people. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #8 January 25, 2010 +1smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #9 January 25, 2010 I do RW while I'm FS. Of course, FF'ers do RW while THEY are doing VFS, too. Acronyms...gotta love 'em. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 4 #10 January 25, 2010 When we're getting on the Otter and deciding about exit order, it's "belly" vs. "sit." That seems to work in practice. Who cares what you call it. Just do it. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #11 January 25, 2010 Belly flying = navel aviating. RW team = navel aviators. Can also be shortened to navelating and navelators. I see this terminology being adopted by the FAI any day now. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 1 #12 January 25, 2010 RW, relative work, used to mean people flying in freefall relative to one another. Viewed from a couple miles away everybody is falling like a brick, but when you're up close doing it it feels like you're really flying around. That's what it still means to me. In freeflying the emphasis switched to body position. Sit flying makes sense to me because we are built to see from an upright position and the visual aspect is a big part of it for me. Head down, other than to try it a few times, makes no sense to me, you can't see where you're going, and you're going there really fast! :-) :-) Quote ***What I really think is more complicated than that, with a lot of hedging and allowing for other viewpoints and motives and situations and history, but to me, the words "relative work" still mean flying around relative to other people. Skr The wing suiters seen to be doing that now. Not just the formations and "proximity" flying but the flocking, I think they csll it. It looks like these guys can fly around each other like dogfighters. I haven't heard of anyone doing an Immelman yet but I wouldn't bet against it in the near future.Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
patworks 5 #13 January 28, 2010 Group Swoop Definitions FREEFLY when: Freeflying or Vertical RW (vRW) – An emerging skydiving discipline (first practiced by Olav Zipser, 1986) that focuses on the ability to control levels and proximity while flying vertical positions - - - - Why: Today, vertical RW embraces a variety of body positions to fly relative with others at any fall-rate. Freeflyers do their vertical relative work in a variety of modes including head-down, standing, sitting, back-flying, and belly-flying. Pretty, graceful body form is not the most important aspect in vertical RW; rather, as in all forms of RW, precise control of levels and proximity is the main objective. The intent is to be able to fly in any position relative to another skydiver within a space constrained only by time. Compared to “flat” or planar RW, vRW is spherical or three-dimensional. Larger formations resemble a swarm of bees more than a dinner plate. To illustrate, RW dives can be stamped out on a flat piece of paper, while vRW dives cannot. Video presentation is from the side or a 3-D spherical point-of-view. From Pat Works' The Art of vRW, the way of freefly; (C) 1998 Pat works; ISBN 0-930438-04-3Pat Works nee Madden Travis Works, Jr .B1575, C1798, D1813, Star Crest Solo#1, USPA#189, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryP 0 #14 January 29, 2010 Relative Work - usually happens around Christmas & Easter. Bores me to tears and I can't wait to get away from my relatives and go jumpin. g."Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it" . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #15 January 30, 2010 A friend of mine once told me that she thought I'd never been domesticated. In hindsight I'm not sure she meant it as a compliment :-) :-) I also see that that when I read your words long ago I took the word "vertical" as referring to spine vertical body position, because I never had the idea that relative work was two dimensional. The words don't quite make sense with that interpretation, but I resolved that by seeing them as a poetic exhortation for people to get out there and innovate and imaginate and break free. And I entirely agreed with that. To be sure, the hookups were flat, at least the ones worth logging were. But the ride up was 3 dimensional, the exit- dive-swoop was 3 dimensional, the breakup was 3 dimensional, the relative work with the planet was 3 dimensional, the canopy flight was 3 dimensional, and, in the Oreo Cookie metaphor where the top layer is the exit and the bottom layer is the break, the filling, the long tall fall, was often filled with 3 dimensional activity. I remember in the mid 60s at Elsinore asking Clarice to fall straight down while I flew around above her, sticking my hand in and out of her burble, trying to figure out the size and shape of it. And I remember us trying to stand on each other's back, like a surf board. And 10 years later I remember pictures of Exitus doing an Enterprise dive where you build a saucer section out of 10 or so people, and have someone stand on it, and a 3-way wedge fly in and be the warp necelles. We did stuff like that at Pope Valley, too. And considering all the chile dogs and beer and other stuff that people ate, some of those ships were probably venting plasma on the way down too :-) :-) And Pope Valley in the 70s was where I really got focused on building dives out of moves instead of hookups. One of my favorites was hopping pairs. Just like people were flying wedges and stairsteps and stuff around we tried flying hopping pairs around relative to each other. A hopping pair is two people side by side continuously going over and under each other. So it's like flying pieces around, except the pieces all have an internal state of motion going on, too. Another was the waterfall where you have 3 or 4 people stacked up at 45 degrees, each person maybe 3 or 4 ft over and down from the one above, and then you have a person start at the top and burble hop down the waterfall, and take up a position on the bottom, and then the top person goes, and so on. There was a whole bunch of stuff like that. You know, relative work started out as freedom and expression and exploration, and over the years kind of devolved into competition and compulsory moves and records. I didn't see it coming, and I was distressed by it, and sort of went my own way, diverging from the mainstream, so I was happy to see freeflying burst forth, but before long the same symptoms started appearing, and I knew when I saw the words "compulsory move" in the same sentence as "freefly" that the game was over. But you've heard all this before. Still, someone might reasonably ask whether anybody has done anything new in the last 100,000 years. And I think we can say "Yes. We did. We flew." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
patworks 5 #16 January 30, 2010 Wow! Well said, brother. The sky-father, Skratch again affirms that 'flight for the joy of flying' is both a path and a goal that our soul poet and mind song-singers all blither towards. Join us. Look over the sunrise. Insist. Continue to listen, learn, and see. Nice place to be. Great spot to lurk in. Come with notions of flight towards joy which transcend today to become a potential tomorrow! Skr is waiting. I too lurk here.. . Where are you now in expanding our envelope of winged potentials? Amaze yourself. Amaze us. Those who fly highest see furtherest. Envision our tomorrow, today. And share that dream! The brotherhood of freefall will be with you. Shoulder to shoulder. ‘Hand to hand. Level-to-level. Dimension-to Mind Warp. Sky-mat to sky-mat. All of us, Kids, & critters alike will map a today that envisages that tomorrow where Joy transcends comprehension. And perfecting flight engenders competitions that spread glories all over. That perfection of levels and proximity engender fulfillment. And the skies are won with wings we earned ourselves. So that our joy abides And grows Forever.Pat Works nee Madden Travis Works, Jr .B1575, C1798, D1813, Star Crest Solo#1, USPA#189, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites