Russian Paracommander

[SteveSwann 0]

I've just got hold of a 27 ft Russian PC from a friend I used to jump with in the 70s. Has anyone got an original manual?
I Intend putting it in a big student Telesis rig with a square reserve. Any thoughts on deployment bags etc?

[captain1976 0]

I had one years ago. I don't remember a bag though as I used a sleeve. Also recall that other than the lines being a different material, it was basically the same as a PC. I will check with a friend of mine who has a lot of that vintage stuff and see if we can get a manual. I can always scan it and email.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Andy9o8 0]

This is a 30+ year old memory, but: I had a friend back in the 70's who had a Russian PC. I remember him telling me that he learned the hard way not to "christmas tree"* the canopy after flaking the panels, but just flake the panels, lay it all down on its side, and sleeve it that way (i.e, to only "side pack" it.)

He said that whenever his christmas-tree'd the canopy, it would malfunction, but when he side-packed it, it opened cleanly. This obviously not a scientific sampling of data. He was kind of a screw-up, so it's entirely possible that he simply sucked at packing, so when he kept it simple, there was less to screw up, and he had better results.


(*Christmas tree - where after you flake the panels, you split the panels into 2 equal groups, and then double each individual panel over onto itself, one after the other, before bagging or sleeving. )

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Steve,

Just so we know: Is this a Russian PC made by Pioneer or is this a Russian PC from the old Soviet Union?

They were substantially different canopies.

If by Pioneer, just pack it like a 'normal' PC. If a Soviet version, just pack it like a 'normal' PC.

JerryBaumchen

[SteveSwann 0]

Jerry,
It's a US version : 27 foot Russian Model made in the USA. DOM 1973, serial 732 475. I used to jump a Mk 11 PC in the 70s.
This looks to be in pretty good condition _ it's in it's original Parachutes Australia sleeve but I'm thinking if it's to be deployed from a modern piggyback it needs to go into a bag.
I'm after advice on packing and rigging for this use. For example, currently its on old risers (capewells). If I stick it on new risers (3-ring) what sort of connector links.
I'd love to hear from anyone who has go9t one of these old beasts back into the air.

[andrewhilton 1]

It packs like a normal PC -

PC manuals available online on ukskydiver.co.uk -

http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=278&Itemid=209

There's a few extra tips for the Russian model and its longer centre and the slack in the Gary Lewis Para-Commander Handbook. This brilliant resource is available at the above link and also as per recent link on Dz.com

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3687317;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Presumably its got regular PC connector links (seperable L links). Keep these on it but ensure that if put on modern 3 ring risers the link can't turn sideways, its needs to be loaded lengthways, so sew or hand tack a narrow channel to the top of each riser leg.

Some pictures in here of Russian PCs being jumped recently -
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3361720;search_string=teuge;#3361720
and here-
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2868356;search_string=ahdz;#2868356

[captain1976 0]

I had one of the few that were purchased by A friend of mine "Rich Olichovik" D-329.

I think it was 8 canopies he got from the Ruskies at one of the National events. He spoke the lingo.

They would sell anything including automatic openers since they needed the bucks and their government provided everything anyway.

I don't remember it being susceptible to malfunctions as I packed it the same way as a PC. I got rid of it when I was offered what was a lot of bucks in the 70's.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[pchapman 261]

Deployment bag? You might even have to modify a student canopy or accuracy canopy d-bag to make it bigger...

The crown lines have to stow somewhere.

I don't know what it "right", but I've heard of stows being put outside the bag, on top, when there's a big #8 grommet for them to slide through.

But when I put a PC in a bag, I just added some stows inside the bag to keep the crown lines neat and tensioned during deployment.

There have been other threads on dz.com about packing PC's, but there's sometimes a bunch of stuff to wade through without any definitive answers. There are many different opinions on PC packing

When putting a PC on modern 3 ring risers, yes you do want the L-bars to not flip sideways in the risers.

Also, the steering toggles for a PC are normally on the back of the front risers. So one could add toggles there. The guide ring attachment probably wouldn't have to be really beefy, as I don't think they should take nearly as much force as on a square. PC steering lines should have some slack in them according to the manual.

Alternatively, for a few jumps a year, I've also just attached the PC steering lines to the normal modern place at the back of the back risers. That does have the steering lines rubbing on the risers where they go around the riser and up into the middle of the canopy. A crummy way to do it but workable.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

heard of stows being put outside the bag, on top, when there's a big #8 grommet for them to slide through.

I have a couple of those. You can S fold or stack pack like a square, depending of your bag. Tandem D bags are good sometimes, building a D-bag works just fine too. 27 ft russian in a wonderhog on 3 rings with hand deploy is the bomb.

nothing wrong with full retro gear as well, just some people are scared.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[RogerRamjet 0]

Were there two different sizes of the Russian PC? I jumped Billy Revis' black Russian PC a few times and I seem to recall it was 23'. I remember it landed (and opened) a little harder than a standard PC, but I stood it up each time so not that much harder (135lbs at the time).

I packed it just like a regular PC using the afore mentioned "Christmas Tree" packing style. No mals...

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[highspeeddirt 0]

used to see several that blew out the coated front panels.

[stratostar 5]

23 & 27 ft models. I've seen them all packed in every deployment type and packed like a normal PC, Other then on the 27 you have to pull down the apex while packing it, there should be two stows in the skirt area for the slack of the centerline. (going from memory here gang)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[SteveSwann 0]

Thanks everyone for some very helpful posts. I'll take out to the DZ next weekend and discuss it all with a couple of other old hands.
Can I just confirm the comment about not needing to stow the centreline slack on the 27 foot model? This one has no stows.
I'd like to get a decent old fore &aft rig to jump it from ( the one this was in was crap --well worn and rusty fittings, particularly the capewells).
I'll keep looking but I'm not sure at age 60 that reserve landings under a roundie are quite my thing.
I'll get back to you all when we've made a bit more progress.

Attached photo of a bag made by some German guys who are jumping PCs very enthusiastically.

[Krip 2]

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I'll keep looking but I'm not sure at age 60 that reserve landings under a roundie are quite my thing.I'll get back to you all when we've made a bit more progress.

IMO A properly executed PLF is your friend at any age.

It's your body,listen to it

One Jump Wonder

[stratostar 5]

Well I have a good size collection of rounds myself that I own and jump.... One of my buddies has the wonderhog witha 27ft russian in it, I've jumped it and packed it a bunch of times, the dogears look funny if you go to flake it, untill you pull down the apex center line and stow the slack.

The 23ft russian we had arond did not have the same as the 27ft.

Both are packed like a normal PC pack job.

None of my PAP's, MK-1 PC's or my Jumbo PC's have the center line stow like my buddies 27ft. Russian. (we got it off Bill Cole in a complete rig for 300 bucks)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[JumpUpMyAss 0]

I owned a 27' Russian in the mid 70's. The canopy is made from 3 types of of material. I packed mine in a Green County POD and stowed the slack center lines at the connector links. The rate of descent is higher than a MK1. It was my favorite canopy.

[steve1 5]

Quote

I've just got hold of a 27 ft Russian PC from a friend I used to jump with in the 70s. Has anyone got an original manual?
I Intend putting it in a big student Telesis rig with a square reserve. Any thoughts on deployment bags etc?

........................................................................

I was just reading the para-commander handbook by Gary Lewis. If you want me to photo-copy anything let me know. All types of para-commanders are in this manual. You can PM me your address.

I'm anxious to try out my competition model PC. I had it modified, so it should be similiar to a Mark I now.

I'm using the manual to brush up on packing. It's been a lot of years since the 70's. I always factory packed back then. I'm also about 25 pounds fatter....I'll be 60 next year. I know all this sounds like a recipe for disaster. But I think I can pull it off....

[SteveSwann 0]

Thanks for that. I've downloaded the Gary Lewis manual and it's pretty helpful.

[stratostar 5]

How much out the door are you going to be LBS?
What MSL is your DZ ?
Are you landing on ground or planing on water?






Are you sure you don't want use a Jumbo PC?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

In Montana most drop zones are around 3,000 ft. I weigh about 180 without gear.

I'm just hoping that the modifications that were done to my competition P.C. will help. It is still short lined. A rigger shortened the two big turning slots, and covered up the big hole in the rear. I'm hoping it will open better, and land similiar to a mark 1. I made about 300 mark 1 jumps back in the 70's.

I jumped another PC about three years ago. I didn't even check to see what kind it was. I don't think it was a jumbo. It was my first PC jump in 35 years. I stood it up with the help of my Frenchies. Even after all those years, muscle memory kicked in, and it was just like riding a bike.

I'd like to try that again. Maybe I'll try it over water first. No use taking too many chances. It's hard to have fun, when you're an old brittle bastard.

[stratostar 5]

Well @ 180 without gear I used to stand up my MK-1 all the time, this was @ 980 MSL not 3K MSL and a 60 yr old crusty slydog.... But we did have a guy in his late 60's and early 70 join us a number of years in a row, I think his last was @ age 72.

Might want want to get one of those young whippersnappers to test jump it for you first to see if that rigging works.

I understand, their fun to jump I like it a lot.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

Good idea Stratostar. I'll start looking today for a young "Whipper Snapper" to jump it first.

It's funny though. I've talked to young jumpers who are scared to land a P.C. I know one really experienced jumper who said he didn't want to take the chance of getting hurt, by landing a para-commander. They were jumping a P.C., but they were cutting it away, rather than land it.

I don't think most jumpers realize that most para-commanders land just fine, as long as you're not too heavy, and if there isn't a lot of wind....

But then again I only weighed 145 lbs. back in the day. Standups were easy, with a little practice and French Jump boots.....

Many of us were also young and dumb. Some of us who were really stupid wouldn't admit that we were scared to jump in the wind either. I still have knots on the back of my head and rear to show for that....Thank god for motorcycle helmets! There was a reason there weren't many old geezers in the sport back then!

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi steve,

I weighed 170 'back in the day' when I was jumping a PC regularly.

I admit to being a little tougher then, though.

I am thinking that you should be just fine; just do an 'into the wind' landing and let us know how it went.

JerryBaumchen

[stratostar 5]

You should be about 200 out the door with gear on, you should be fine, work on your PLF. To bad your not closer I would lone you one of my jumbos for that added sqft for old guys.....

Have someone get video & stills and report back.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

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Good idea Stratostar. I'll start looking today for a young "Whipper Snapper" to jump it first.

They won't know what the f*** to do with it. Most of us had 50+ jumps on cheapo rounds before we jumped our first PC-class canopy. They'll be like that kid in A Christmas Story: they'll shoot their eye out.