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quade

DB Cooper

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...
The money did not arrive at Tenas Bar prior to 1974, and probably not until the earliest of late 78. It also had to arrive still in the bag.
...


I concur.

If I were an FBI agent...

I'd contact Brian Ingram and ask him what, if anything, he found near or under the money.

Although, had I been Brian, I would be yelling to my dad, "Hey, Dad, come over here there's a whole bunch of money!!" I sure as hell wouldn't be taking notice of anything *but* the money.

Never the less, if Brian told an FBI agent, back then or now, anything about the area around the money...such as describing old suspension line or old pieces of tattered cloth...a VERY big part of this puzzle would be in place with many questions answered.

And...we will have narrowed the search area for hardware, and possibly harness webbing, to only a few thousand square miles up river to the point where the aircraft course passes over, or near by, a tributary.

If I were an FBI agent...



Guru,

in here we are all FBI agents, your on the job

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Might I say you people are on fire, i never give up hope but i do have my moments when i think why bother. The last two days have been great, we need a hydrologist. Or we can just have Sluggo and Snowmman drink a few cups of coffee and do more research on the net. i am sure if the two of them put their heads together they can be hydrologist by morning. "Wonder twins power activate... "

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The money now brings us home. We can reasonably state the money arrived at its location by nature not at the hand of someone. From its condition and position we can conclude the money arrived at the discovery location still in the bag. which, of course, is a big clue that the bag either broke away from Cooper when he jumped or he died in the jump and bag eventually broke away from his body.

We now need someone to jump from a plane with a cloth bag full of 20 lbs of paper (tied as Cooper tied his) attached to themselves. This will test the theory of the bag separating from Cooper upon jumping. If we can prove the bag broke free, we then need to drop a cloth bag from 10,000 ft with 20 pounds of paper to see how far it drifts. Or we can just assume the bag broke free based on the facts of the money find and skip the jump.

Once we have the distance the bag can travel, a hydrologist needs to pinpoint a location nearest to the 8:15 PM flight path that could drain into the Columbia. If the pieces of the puzzle fit we solved part of the mystery. If it is way off, back to work.



Ckret, my suggestion is simulation before test.
Thats what mathematics and computer simulations
are all about. I would pick several scenarios and run
a simulation. As a control I would include a Washougal
washdown scenario. Because quite frankly if you don't
you will be criticised for not being thorough, and this
time we want the FBI to look good! (At least I do).
This could possibly be done at the U of Washington,
or through somebody here?, maybe someone at USGS
in Washington.

The simulations don't have to be fancy. Just basic.
The raw data should be useful no matter how this goes.

(I cant do it here. Everyone is busy. As you know.)

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Once we have the distance the bag can travel, a hydrologist needs to pinpoint a location nearest to the 8:15 PM flight path that could drain into the Columbia.



Ckret: you're jumping the gun here. You immediately talk about the Columbia for water movement. It may be most likely, but the Vancouver Lake, Shillapoo Creek, flooding to Lower River Rd theory I threw out, is possible also.

Because Vancouver Lake is so large, it's not immediately dismissable, I think.

georger was the first to introduce this alternate water path. I posted jpgs of the distance across Shilapoo in that creek, from the north channel of Vancouver Lake, and it's not that bad. It could actually be more plausible as the low velocity water movement that georger seems to like better.

I'm not pushing this idea. Just don't see why you jumped to the Columbia already.




Snowmman think about this. You cant limit to one
scenario only. You have to consider several scenarios.
There is going can be no perfect solution unless his bones are found. Since nobody has found those and
he wasnt found at the Hilton Room #233, then its a
backdoor entry working the probabilities, and
fortunately there is order within Chaos - one piece of
that order was the money found at Tena Bar (also the
placard at Toutle). I mean this literally unless you
find his bones. I'm not saying anything new ...

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Snowmman,

I already quoted Silence of the Lambs, in my mind only Point Break is worth ongoing quotes. now thats a movie



A great movie indeed Ckret. Point Break makes skydiving seem cooler than it really is. If it was as great as Point Break makes it seem, I'd quit my day job, let the bank foreclose on my house and just live at the DZ til my 401K hit zero. Point Break makes skydiving seem like crack, but in reality it's just meth.

I am watching our flight tracking duo in awe. Some fine minds here. All I can do is sit on the sidelines and cheer.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Bigsky,

Your right, way to keep them straight. The money did not arrive at Tenas Bar prior to 1974, and probably not until the earliest of late 78. It also had to arrive still in the bag. According to everything we are putting together he did not jump over Vancouver, north of Vancouver.



probably not until the earliest of late 78. ??? why?

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The money could not have survived in the elements unprotected much longer than a year. If we go beyond a year (unprotected by the bag) the bills would have been further deteriorated than what was found.

edit: given the already 8 years it had been in an uncontroled environment

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377, that movie is my professional life, FBI, skydiving (investigation not jumping) and bank robbery



Good point Ckret. You are definitely in that movie. Can we assume that the life of an FBI Special Agent is over glamorized in Point Break just as skydiving was? If it was that cool, they could pay even less and still hire and retain good people. I mean how much would they have to pay an agent if he got to live like Johnny Utah and sleep with Tyler? Minimum wage?

I think you are also in Blade Runner.

Was it Snowman who threw in the Moby Dick hint?

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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No, you're thinking discrete drift lines when there's nothing about the 8:15 "guess" that says we need to step in discrete time quanta.

It's not about circles. If you start thinking circles, it's all wrong and we might miss something?



______________________________________________

Snowman I think you misunderstand what I
am saying.

The flight path has a built in uncertainty as to time
and position. Sluggo has been trying to lessen this
uncertainty and specify how much uncertainty there
is in the flight path. But not all uncertainty can be
eliminated because some uncertainty is inherent in
the mere fact of flying, weather, reporting, etc.

When I say 'circle of probability' I mean even if you pick a point on the flight path, the point is a probability (circle), as wide as the uncertainties in time
and position etc are.

Nobody including Sluggo can certify that any time chosen on the flight path is a dead certainty. Again, uncertainty is inherent in the fact of a flight path by
its very nature and we will never (for a variety of
reasons) get to a certainty level much greater than
say 1-2 minutes wide. (A point suddenly becomes a circle of uncertainty).

I have no doubt Sluggo will try to reduce certainty as
much as he can. That is what this whole exercise of
revising the flight path (to fit certain facts) has been about. But any flight path model is no better than the facts that support it and the facts the model is trying to explain.

If you dont like the word circle then call each point a
window. ( a window of opportunity for a bail out).

Whatever we call it we will wind up dealing with the same issues, which are uncertainty.

I hope this helps?

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Sluggo you are really funny! I've incorporated the secret technology you just passed in that .wav into the top secret drone based on vacuum tubes I'm developing here at Paradise Ranch...we won't need the prime numbers any more!

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snowmman,

Your last post made me think about some training I had one time.

Go HERE

Sluggo

EDIT: This is why I entered the field of "Instructional Technology". So I could design Training Materials for Guv'ment Agencies.

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[There's an intriguing story I thought I read from back then about a kid thinking they found a body?, but when they went back with the sheriff, there was no body. I can't find that story anymore and not sure if I imagined it. Be interesting if Ckret had any false reports of body found that week around the Columbia]

Okay, time to get serious again, as we wait for new numbers from Sluggo.

Here's the problem. If we come up with a scenario "close" to what we're currently discussing, that explains the money, then a no-pull body should have impacted not too far off?

Unless, it would travel farther along the flight line and maybe end up in the center of the Columbia?

That article about the possible suicide jumper/body found, is kind of why I always figured a no-pull into the Columbia would result in a body found (I'm thinking the body would not have exploded into parts at terminal if it hit the water).....the body might go a long ways before it snagged up or was detected though.

Fewer people in WA/OR back then. So maybe back then it was possible to lose a body in the river, easier?

That recent body/floater hit an island way past the Lewis. It's really far to the ocean. It's hard to believe a body would just go all the way out and not be found. I guess eventually sink/eaten/decompose.

I was thinking at one time of a body impacting into mud and disappearing (Sauvie Island) but that seems unlikely now. There are some places around the Columbia that seem soft, at the current flight path, so maybe something there.

I was also mulling over displacement theories connected to the 205 bridge/highway construction. but that's a little upstream of the flight path crossing.
Groundbreaking for that bridge was August, 1977 which is really interestingly close to the years we like for the bag. But I think construction workers would have noticed something.

SO: I can't help but think the data is not going to point to bones, but to "Cooper landed okay"

But then I can't believe someone in full canopy over Vancouver would have gone unnoticed at 8:15 that night. He'd have to land and packup the chute? Wouldn't take it with him...Quick burial? But then it would be found eventually? It's heavy enough population there.

So is it going to be a no-pull into the Columbia for Cooper and his body just not found?

Hmm...not sure where this is going to lead us.

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"What I want out of each and every one of you is a hard target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse, and dog house in that area."



So do you guys still get fascinated when you find leg irons without legs in them?:D
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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377, that movie is my professional life, FBI, skydiving (investigation not jumping) and bank robbery



Good point Ckret. You are definitely in that movie. Can we assume that the life of an FBI Special Agent is over glamorized in Point Break just as skydiving was? If it was that cool, they could pay even less and still hire and retain good people. I mean how much would they have to pay an agent if he got to live like Johnny Utah and sleep with Tyler? Minimum wage?

I think you are also in Blade Runner.

Was it Snowman who threw in the Moby Dick hint?

377



I bounce between Johnny Utah and Johnny Castle.

"Nobody puts baby in a corner!!!!"

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"What I want out of each and every one of you is a hard target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse, and dog house in that area."



So do you guys still get fascinated when you find leg irons without legs in them?:D


Actually yes. What did they look like? home made? were the bends sharp or curved? Were the corners filed after the metal was cut? How were the holes made? clean? did it look like a drill press was used? Surface rust? Iron, mild steel, stainless?

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All the FBI wants to do is make Cooper go away and this is their way of doing it - bury him. Well, he is not buried and I hold the only clues to finding the truth.

Frankly I believe this is all what is called a WHITEWASH.



Jo, Jo, Jo... (sigh) ... ckret is spending an awful lot of time on something that the FBI could just have kept on ignoring. No need to "whitewash" it at all, they could just have left it alone.

You really are relying on the last refuge of the conspiracy theorist here. In most instances, no evidence is found because no evidence is there, not because of a "whitewash".

I know you have spent many years trying to prove this, and I can see how important this is to you, but don't you think the fact that you have turned up no proper evidence in all that time should be telling you something? Maybe it's time to cut your losses and get on with your life.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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377, that movie is my professional life, FBI, skydiving (investigation not jumping) and bank robbery



Hey, Johnny Utah at least jumped out a plane. When you gonna take these guys up on their offer and go do a tandem... or better still a first jump course??
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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Don't forget to include the forward throw an object will have leaving an aircraft in flight. Also depending on the body position of a human in free fall they tend to scoot and slide all over the place, except Johnny Utah, now that dude could skydive!;)


"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

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