DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

okay, then someone stole all the flight speed info from 20:12 to 20:18
why wouldn't it be on the flight recorder?

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There are red ticks, but because they don't have times by them they are blue pins.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I think I have confused you snowmman.

Look at the hi-res map. There are red tic-marks about every 3 NM. They start at 1954 and continue to the 4 SW of Portland (not included on my map).

19:54 has a red pin because it has “19:54 written by it. The next tic-mark does not have a time by it, so it is blue.

When you get to 20:05 they are red pins again because they have times written by them.

Then at 20:11 the times stop again, but the tic-marks continue at about the same interval.

Does that explain it?


Sluggo

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[n467us 0]

Jo,

No offense was intended, but I do not feel that you are aware of how many of your comments leave the reader feeling. That was my point in referencing them. I still believe that if a case could be made on circumstantial evidence alone (using your statements), Duane Weber could be the man. Unfortunately that is not possible, and without substantiating proof, your memories of this or that just won't do it. In your mind, Duane was DB Cooper. That's fine. No argument. You win.

I feel that Ckret has been very forthcoming about the information in his possession, and nothing seems to link Duane to this case. I also believe that Ckret truly wants to solve this case, and cannot afford to expend valuable time & resources chasing down "what ifs".

Again, apologies for offending you.

[snowmman 3]

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I think I have confused you snowmman.

Look at the hi-res map. There are red tic-marks about every 3 NM. They start at 1954 and continue to the 4 SW of Portland (not included on my map).

19:54 has a red pin because it has “19:54 written by it. The next tic-mark does not have a time by it, so it is blue.

When you get to 20:05 they are red pins again because they have times written by them.

Then at 20:11 the times stop again, but the tic-marks continue at about the same interval.

Does that explain it?

Sluggo

I'm totally confused. The only thing that comes to mind is the scene out of Silence of the Lambs.
Ckret lets me borrow it sometimes

The thing is that Lecter said everything we need to catch him is in these pages.
Dr Lecter said a lot of things.
He's here, Ardelia.
Is this Lecter's handwriting?
"Clarice, doesn't this random scattering of sites seem desperately random,
Like the elaboration of a bad liar? Hannibal Lecter."
Desperately random? What does he mean?
Not random at all, maybe. Like there's some pattern here.
But there is no pattern or the computers would have nailed it.
- They were even found in random order. - Random because of the one girl.
- The one he weighted down. - Fredrica Bimmel.
From Belvedere, Ohio.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I just noticed that 19:55 tic-mark has a time beside it. I changed it in the program, but I'm not going to run it again, now. Just see red when you look at the 19:55 pin.

Sluggo

EDIT: I uploaded the change. Make sure you are looking at "Analysis of Blank Error-3.jpg"

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[Guru312 0]

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...
The money did not arrive at Tenas Bar prior to 1974, and probably not until the earliest of late 78. It also had to arrive still in the bag.
...

I concur.

If I were an FBI agent...

I'd contact Brian Ingram and ask him what, if anything, he found near or under the money.

Although, had I been Brian, I would be yelling to my dad, "Hey, Dad, come over here there's a whole bunch of money!!" I sure as hell wouldn't be taking notice of anything *but* the money.

Never the less, if Brian told an FBI agent, back then or now, anything about the area around the money...such as describing old suspension line or old pieces of tattered cloth...a VERY big part of this puzzle would be in place with many questions answered.

And...we will have narrowed the search area for hardware, and possibly harness webbing, to only a few thousand square miles up river to the point where the aircraft course passes over, or near by, a tributary.

If I were an FBI agent...

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

*** The red pins have times written next to them and the blue ones are just tic-marks with no times. So for the blue ones the time was based on the average length between the red ones and hence marked EST for ESTIMATED.***

ok, I'm thinking about error accumulation. The longer the run length of blue pins, the more your error increases because you're using an old estimate. You need a red pin every once in a while to resync you.

We can estimate the possible error accumulation by understanding how much the plane could accelerate or decelerate thru the blue only area, The constant spacing is assuming no change in speed?

Basically we need to end with a red pin, to have any chance of accuracy. And the blue estimates should include data from a forward red pin, not just backward red pins, to be as good an estimate as possible?

It sounds like maybe the estimating algorithm is just broken when the plane is changing speed? I'm flailing again.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Guru312,

snowmman has a story to tell, but he's shy, so you'll have to ask him, or he won't tell it.

Ask snowmman who "really" found the money on Tena Bar on that cold... February,,, day.

Was it little Cindy-Lou Who?

Huh snowmman, you wanna tell us?

Sluggo

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[snowmman 3]

I've had lots of theories, yes. I checked with Ckret on something I read in a news article but there was nothing to it. Ckret confirmed.

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Guru312,

snowmman has a story to tell, but he's shy, so you'll have to ask him, or he won't tell it.

Ask snowmman who "really" found the money on Tena Bar on that cold... February,,, day.

Was it little Cindy-Lou Who?

Huh snowmman, you wanna tell us?

Sluggo

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

Since no one else wants to play my game (or they haven’t had the opportunity), I’ll give you a big clue.

I spent the night last night with these charts. I knew something was wrong with the timing of the jump point (I have suspected it since I started on my “Flight Path Model” back in March). I knew it was wrong, but I had no way to prove it. A 727 can’t fly at 97 knots. Then Ckret sent the chart and it is right there.

You remember that old “shaggy-Dog story, where the punch line is “the missing brick”?

Well, there is something missing here too.

Look at this (Attached File) and ponder on it. Don’t get all esoteric, and start that shit about cumulative error, standard deviations, Gaussian distributions, confidence limits, and 3-sigma errors. Look at it like a farmer counting hay-bales. One is missing.

So, after 4 years… the dog returns home… and guess what he’s got in his mouth?

The missing minute.

Sluggo

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[snowmman 3]

f*ing brilliant sluggo.

my random swag needed 2 minutes. You got a minute back, right? cause 20:04 is missing ...well you've highlighted it in red, so I'm assuming you're saying LOOK HERE

Nixon taught us everything we needed. His gap was 18 minutes. This one is 1?

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snowmman,

I spent the night last night with these charts. I knew something was wrong with the timing of the jump point (I have suspected it since I started on my “Flight Path Model” back in March). I knew it was wrong, but I had no way to prove it. A 727 can’t fly at 97 knots. Then Ckret sent the chart and it is right there.

You remember that old “shaggy-Dog story, where the punch line is “the missing brick”?

Well, there is something missing here too.

Look at this (Attached File) and ponder on it. Don’t get all esoteric, and start that shit about cumulative error, standard deviations, Gaussian distributions, confidence limits, and 3-sigma errors. Look at it like a farmer counting hay-bales. One is missing.

So, after 4 years… the dog returns home… and guess what he’s got in his mouth?

The missing minute.

Sluggo

[hangdiver 1]

Did the aircraft make some turns that weren't recorded? Actually that's two minutes. a two minute standard turn?

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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f*ing brilliant sluggo.

my random swag needed 2 minutes. You got a minute back, right? cause 20:04 is missing ...well you've highlighted it in red, so I'm assuming you're saying LOOK HERE

Nixon taught us everything we needed. His gap was 18 minutes. This one is 1?

Ooohhh I do love adoring fans, actually I have found you another 20 seconds, but I have some work to do before I can talk about it.

All reported positions after 20:05 should have been 1 minute less. So they were aproximately 3.2 NM further south at 20:11. Ignoring a bunch of errors of course. With the times being only on even minutes ( not MM:SS) I don't think we are going to do any better.

Soon it will be time for you to get all esoteric, and start that shit about cumulative error, standard deviations, Gaussian distributions, confidence limits, and 3-sigma errors.

But at least we know someone dropped a minute.

Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Did the aircraft make some turns that weren't recorded?

Not that I'm aware of. For a while, back in March, I thought they might have circled the airport while climbing to altitude, But that wasn't the problem. Look at the file: Analysis of Legs.jpg posted above.

Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Did the aircraft make some turns that weren't recorded? Actually that's two minutes. a two minute standard turn?

I'm not a 727 Jockey, but I have been told: for heavy airplanes a standard rate turn is a 4-minute turn.

Sluggo

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[hangdiver 1]

Thanks, I see it's only one minute. My bad math thought two, but there's already one minute accounted for in the time line. My bad!
I did have a thought about Coopers state of mind if he lost the money right out the door, Ckret post #2208 says it was all about the money, Cooper shows his mindset, Ckret post #1167 "No funny stuff, or I'll do the job." What would Coopers motivation be for surviving the jump with no money? Did he lose the money right out the door and just decide "awe fuck it" not pull and bounce rather than take the rap for the hijacking with no money? His body may be gone but I'll wager you're getting closer to what's left of the gear.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[skyjack71 0]

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The money now brings us home. We can reasonably state the money arrived at its location by nature not at the hand of someone. From its condition and position we can conclude the money arrived at the discovery location still in the bag. which, of course, is a big clue that the bag either broke away from Cooper when he jumped or he died in the jump and bag eventually broke away from his body.

We now need someone to jump from a plane with a cloth bag full of 20 lbs of paper (tied as Cooper tied his) attached to themselves. This will test the theory of the bag separating from Cooper upon jumping. If we can prove the bag broke free, we then need to drop a cloth bag from 10,000 ft with 20 pounds of paper to see how far it drifts. Or we can just assume the bag broke free based on the facts of the money find and skip the jump.

Once we have the distance the bag can travel, a hydrologist needs to pinpoint a location nearest to the 8:15 PM flight path that could drain into the Columbia. If the pieces of the puzzle fit we solved part of the mystery. If it is way off, back to work.

You are forcing it to work - that is not how this is done. He landed near the tracks and a tower (fire tower) above what is now 500).
He was East of Vancouver at the point that the power lines and pipe lines crossed. The MONEY did not get there by way of nature or water.

This I know with all of my heart and soul. Somehow when I get to WA I will find something on that creek and by the way I still have not recieve the information you promised.

All the FBI wants to do is make Cooper go away and this is their way of doing it - bury him. Well, he is not buried and I hold the only clues to finding the truth.

Frankly I believe this is all what is called a WHITEWASH.

How come you haven't answered my email about testing that strand in the old knife? You are not doing one positive thing that is productive in find out who Cooper was other than to scramble the evidience to further confuse the public.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Thieves do not deserve to win, but they do 90 per cent of the time.
Stealing makes me MAD

Interesting angle considering we are talking about a THIEF when we are talking about DB Cooper. (Possibly when we are talking about Duane as well but I don't have the details behind all those prison sentences you mentioned)

If you really knew me you would know that I do not condone what Duane did - and would never have been part of his life had I known his history - one reason he never told me about his past.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

no money could explain not getting caught. Would have been easier to get caught if you had the money. As long as you don't try again, you're home free. Maybe realize it was a stupid idea, if you survive.

The money would actually be a problem. People would notice the effect, unless you threw it away.

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Thanks, I see it's only one minute. My bad math thought two, but there's already one minute accounted for in the time line. My bad!
I did have a thought about Coopers state of mind if he lost the money right out the door, Ckret post #2208 says it was all about the money, Cooper shows his mindset, Ckret post #1167 "No funny stuff, or I'll do the job." What would Coopers motivation be for surviving the jump with no money? Did he lose the money right out the door and just decide "awe fuck it" not pull and bounce rather than take the rap for the hijacking with no money? His body may be gone but I'll wager you're getting closer to what's left of the gear.

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo said Duane took her into the woods somewhere and he said "that is where Cooper walked out of the woods" Well if the new jump area is correct then he never walked out of the woods because the area isn’t wooded.

Again no one really listens or reads what I have said. There is a place he walked out of the woods - very far from where he landed.

How many times do I have to explain that he fell someplace near a set of track - and followed a light thur some woods to a firetower where he buried something behind a shed. Then it was just a short walk to a road...at a place that the power lines and pipe lines intersect. That he had to go East to get our of any possible place they might look for him - he knew the lines and where they went (maybe he help build them - I don't know). At another place more lines intersected and it was at this point that we were in a orchard - a clearing and he pointed to the N.W. and said I couldn't see them but yrs before that you could walk for miles along those lines before the undergrowth was there. It was from this point that he goes to the creek and follows the creek South to where it comes out at a place that used to have cabins used by fishermen. This is the point he made that statement - but Cooper knew where he was and where he was going after he found the tower and the road - he knew the lines.

You are taking the point he made that statement completly out of realm. If you could see the places and go with me to these places you would understand exactly what I am trying to say.

The place he landed near and the area where the tower was is now what is called ranchettes in Fl. They are long narrow pieces of land with homes fronting on the road. I know about where the towers where and I have always wanted to know who owned that land in 1971 and when was it cleared and when did they remove the tower and shed.

It is ridiculous that you take one statement without reading the entire thing. We went to the last places first - do you understand this.

I don't know ;how to make myself clear to you or anyone else. Have someone who knows the area talk to me on the phone or in person - ican show them these places on a map. I am so tired of trying to make you people understand. How do I do this? I will get my maps out much later next wk and try to walk someone thru it on the phone with a similar map so they can follow me - I don't know who this person would be but find me someone or send someone to see me and let me show them.

If necessary I will pay for my plane ticket to WA - someone needs to provide me with a place to stay - I can walk you thur it. I cannot physically walk it but I can help someone else do it. The exact landing spot I do not know but i can take you from the tracks and the rest of the way.

I have not been able to open the things you guys are posting (I have company and I don't feel well) - I believe Sluggo knows part of the route as he is the one who posted a map that was dead on for the area I was trying to explain.

This area was the area of the tower and the tracks and it intersected with the lines I have spoke of for yrs and yrs and yrs.
He had to walk East and South - he had to get out of the area they might be searching. Bully for him now because they were searching far to North of his landing point and by the time the FBI figured that out he was gone gone gone.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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You are forcing it to work - that is not how this is done.

uh... yes this is how it's done, isn't it? When it doesn't fit any other way, it suggests some data is bad. You then look for bad data. If you find it and confirm it's bad, you throw it away.

I could ask you the question Jo: why do you think any of the previous data was correct? or more correct?

We have more information now than we ever had. You can look at all the information over the last 36 years, and say: which data is more likely correct?

I pick: right now.

[snowmman 3]

oh master I am putting the tubes back in the Whirlwind lovingly crafted from thrown out parts I found in my journeys to SAGE centers. it will LIVE again! She breaches!

I really like the idea of fine tuning the estimation algorithm to include acceleration/deceleration prediction. Not sure if we can.

But just brainstorming:

It's would seem to me that you would want to incorporate information from behind and ahead, to figure out where you currently are?

See we're looking at a full history. It's not like we're flying the plane and can only look at what we just did.

We can take a single point and look at the past and future, and predict the most accurate present.

We're omniscient?

I'm not sure on the details, but it just feels like the best fine tuning would be not talking about error margins with the data on the current algorithm, but whether an algorithm could be created that folds in external info not currently used: like 727 acceleration/deceleration capability in the Cooper configuration at the fuel consumption rates we know.

See what i mean: it's about using existing info to the max, but also wondering if external data not currently being used, can be added to the recipe.

Think about the simple little thing I tried to do to refine the wind rose prediction, using knowledge of the measured wind speed.

Another way to look at it: shuffle the times, than compute whether the known information contradicts or allows it..i.e. working the data from behind. Accept the data, and work the algorithm.

Why does make sense? BECAUSE THE FRIGGING PREDICTION ALGORITHM DOESN"T MAKE SENSE? so don't be a slave to it...figure out a set of data that works given what we know and the capabilities of the plane and it's probable actions at the time (probable: result of transcripts/interviews/etc)

I'm just thinking out loud here...

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Soon it will be time for you to get all esoteric, and start that shit about cumulative error, standard deviations, Gaussian distributions, confidence limits, and 3-sigma errors.

But at least we know someone dropped a minute.

Sluggo

[skyjack71 0]

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uh... yes this is how it's done, isn't it? When it doesn't fit any other way, it suggests some data is bad. You then look for bad data. If you find it and confirm it's bad, you throw it away.

I could ask you the question Jo: why do you think any of the previous data was correct? or more correct?

We have more information now than we ever had. You can look at all the information over the last 36 years, and say: which data is more likely correct?

I pick: right now.

I don't understand the data and it is all mumbo jumbo to me I just know how to read a map and what I saw. The data you all are compiling may well enforce my story rather than discredit it.

I am talking about CKRETS - statements that the money landed in the Columbia and that Cooper splased.

I have not opened the maps and all of those things you guys are posting - they may be dead on to what I have been saying. I do not have have the time or knowledge to open these things. I am not allowing my mind to be poisoned by things I don't understand. All I understand are real maps on paper - it is very difficult for me on a computer. I have to see the whole picture and over lay that onto the areas he took me to.

It could be that all of this lines up.
I have not changed the route and never will. I have old black and white maps from 1979 - because they are the closest to what I would have been looking at. These maps do not show much in the way of small roads and is only a photo copy of a bigger map. Most of the roads are not named or numbered.

Do any of you live in my area who has down loaded all of this and could meet with me and let me show them my maps first and then show me what you guys are talking about?

What if we are on the same page and in the same chapter, but my lack of knowledge is hindering me? I don't know where Vancouver Lake is but I know where Lake LaCames is and what lies N. W. of it going toward Battleground (not to Battleground)and that is the area I am talking about. An area above a big loop with on name on the map.

I just know what Ckret posts

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

Your last post made me think about some training I had one time.

Go HERE

Sluggo

EDIT: This is why I entered the field of "Instructional Technology". So I could design Training Materials for Guv'ment Agencies.

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[Ckret 0]

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Ckret:

This has probably been covered before... but:

(1) Did the FBI cross check missing persons reports from the late '71-'72 timeframe (nationwide)?

(2) Has there been any bodies found in/around the Columbia River since '71?

Thanks...

The orders the night of the jump came like this, in fact I think it was used in a movie.....

"What I want out of each and every one of you is a hard target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse, and dog house in that area."

So yes every avenue was searched.

Lots of bones turn up when hikers go into the woods around here. Very strange and wonderful place. No bones recovered so far can be related to the Cooper Caper.