22 22
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

Orange,

The load master guess is a way to explain how someone would have the knowledge Cooper had about jumping and aircraft without actually having working knowledge of either.

As a load master he would have just enough information or exposure to dream up his escape, go through the motions of it but not have the working knowledge to successfully forward the plan.

The bulk of the investigation was conducted on those with a high level of skill, either a sport jumper or someone with military jump experience.

Snowmman,

Why would you be surprised that I could not understand your genius. Your brilliance shines too bright for mere mortals. I am blinded by it, maybe you could turn it down a notch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Before takeoff, no crew member took particular note of Dan Cooper, a fit 6-footer who weighed perhaps 175 pounds. D. B. Cooper's wardrobe was the definition of nondescript in 1971: a dark suit and tie and a white shirt with a pearl tie tack. Like so many other American males of that day, he wore a homburg hat—felt, with a dented crown and narrow brim. He carried a dark raincoat and a brief case. He had brown eyes, short brown hair and no whiskers. He was white and spoke with no accent. He was tan or had a Mediterranean complexion described as swarthy or olive.



Maybe the bit that should have been bolded is this:
Quote

D. B. Cooper's wardrobe was the definition of nondescript in 1971


...in other words, you can draw just about NO conclusions about who he was from what he was wearing!
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Maybe the bit that should have been bolded is this:

Quote

D. B. Cooper's wardrobe was the definition of nondescript in 1971


...in other words, you can draw just about NO conclusions about who he was from what he was wearing!



I totally agree. The clothing was the normal clothing of the day. No inference to be drawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Any KC-135 boom operators or anecdotes out there?
People chime in with info/applicability? I wanted to maybe show that "loadmaster" sounds good, but there seems to have been other ways to have gained skill/some-knowledge acquisition of similar quality/applicability? (check the photo and read the full post for why)

But: I don't think boom operator meshes with future business man attire. Who knows though. Showing bias.

Attached photo of refuel, plus a cool c-130 cargo drop just cuz it was kool.

info off web: Note parachute training happened regularly.

The KC-135 Stratotanker is for aerial refuel. It was another deriviative of the 367-80 (Dash 80) program, as was the 707.

Note the refuel boom comes out the rear of the plane. There used to be some kind of escape spoiler for safe parachute exit?

The KC-135 crew members were trained to be able to grab/use parachutes for emergencies or some operations. They got annual parachute training. Now apparently they have a harness available for those operations and no parachute.

Only recently, the USAF announced that parachutes have been removed from KC-135 operation, because it's statistically safer to stay with the plane.

http://www.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123087912


background/McChord connection:

The Boeing model 367-80 (Dash 80) was the basic design for the commercial 707 as well as the KC-135A Stratotanker. In 1954, USAF purchased the first 29 of its future fleet of 732. The first of these aircraft left the assembly line at Renton, Wash. July 18, 1956, and flew for the first time August 31, 1956.

The Strategic Air Command positioned a squadron of KC-135 tankers at McChord in June 15, 1960. The new unit, 22d Air Refueling Squadron, was an element of the 92d Bombardment Wing (Heavy) based at Fairchild AFB, WA. After a 2 year stay at McChord, the 22nd ARS was deactivated on July 1 1962.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Depoe Bay Beacon - Online edition

Link to a PDF. Attorney Galen Cook points the finger at Wolfgang Gossett.

Interesting reading. The guy told a lot of people that he was Cooper. His kids.

Usual, and logical, explanations. He died recently.
"Don't tell until after I die because I'd go to jail."

The attorney is going to spend 3 months writing a book. The attorney has also spent a lot of time researching things. Like anybody else, he can curve the story to fit the facts. The attorney seems to be in the Cooper-finding business.

The candidate is as good as any other.
However, they do have a full set of prints and DNA from a hair sample. So, a match can be checked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Orange,

The load master guess is a way to explain how someone would have the knowledge Cooper had about jumping and aircraft without actually having working knowledge of either.

As a load master he would have just enough information or exposure to dream up his escape, go through the motions of it but not have the working knowledge to successfully forward the plan.

The bulk of the investigation was conducted on those with a high level of skill, either a sport jumper or someone with military jump experience.

Snowmman,

Why would you be surprised that I could not understand your genius. Your brilliance shines too bright for mere mortals. I am blinded by it, maybe you could turn it down a notch.



Using the theory that Cooper had been a load master....

He would have had experience dropping cargo with a parachute, some spotting experience could be gathered doing that.
Who would have known the stairs on a 727 could be lowered in flight? At some time someone did tests and knew it could be done... who did these tests? It's possible that's where Cooper got his information, either directly (involved in the tests) or indirectly (from someone who was involved). Considering the time frame, the US was involved in Vietnam at the time... did the US government use 727's at that time?
The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK boys and girls... we have some info on the "new" DB Cooper suspect (Wolfgang)...

Although we have to wait for many months to "buy" the book, I would think that Ckret can start the lab running down this guys old gray hairs and prints, comparing them to the archived evidence. I really hate to go here, but WHAT IF this guy's 4 ex wives get in on this forum and help guide us through the coinicidences and stuff... (just kidding, Jo)

I'll be the first to jump out and say that the photographic resemblance is the best that I have seen, from a non-scientific aspect.

How about it Ckret? Is Wolfy our boy? Keep us informed... this is becoming a real nail biter... to be continued...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I'll be the first to jump out and say that the photographic resemblance is the best that I have seen, from a non-scientific aspect.



Certainly would be hilarious to re-do the screwy face recognition software test with this guy included.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
n467us,

This is no different than any other person that has been brought forward. Nothing directly connects him to the hijacking. He is dead so anyone can say anything about him and no one can go back to investigate if it is true or not.

I offered to compare prints and do DNA testing on the suspect Cook brought forward but he would not provide the suspects complete information to me. We went round and round for months and he always claimed the client/lawyer relationship prevented him from giving me the individuals name. Guess the real problem was a book in the making.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So the question is Cook's motivation in not allowing you access to the physical evidence yet - is it:
- he doesn't want the suspect ruled out on dna/fingerprints and thereby scupper his book; or
- he is convinced he has the right guy and doesn't want some hotshot journo to beat him getting a book out once the evidence is confirmed...?

i'm still downloading the article - but ckret, can we assume this guy has no criminal record or otherwise you could have checked the fingerprints anyway?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A couple of years ago when she first started posting about Cooper, her theories and accusations weren't as wild or as outlandish as they have become. They didn't involve MLK or any other "black helicopter" conspiracies.



I HAVE a RIGHT to explore these so called theories just as everyone else has. When I receive a phone call telling me about a tie - then I have a right to investigate that. It is a FACT That Duane knew James Earl Ray and that the two wives shared a residence for a short period of time. Then along comes my learning what a Commutation of sentence in 1968 means - Put it ALL together and most individuals would also take that and investigate it as much as possible. Most OLD crimes are solved just this way.

As I have said before - before you call the kettle black (me crazy) put your credentials on the table or hold your peace.

This forum is not about ATTACKING me or TRYING to discredit me - it is about exploring every aspect we know, can speculate and can learn. To use this forum to BASH someone else for your own reason whatever they maybe is NOT RIGHT and RIGHT OUT RUDE.

The subject is - COOPER, not me.
Go ahead take a suspect other than Weber and YOU post what you know about that subject - It will be he said and she said. Try it!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Then along comes my learning what a Commutation of sentence in 1968 means -


Go ahead take a suspect other than Weber and YOU post what you know about that subject - It will be he said and she said. Try it!



Firstly, you have selectively intrepreted what the commutation means - it could be for snitching but you have stated as though it were a fact that it wasn't.

Your last point is the more critical one though. I think AggieDave's point is precisely that when we find a suspect with tangible evidence, rather than he said/she said (without anything ever backing that up) - THEN that is something to get excited about. All that your last sentence might "prove" is that no-one has found the right suspect yet.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

In regard to military service (I have posted and disscussed it many times) the theory is he was a Load Master operating out of McCord



You must mean the new subject, but you forget that there are load Masters in the Smoke Jumping arena and more likely have jumped with large payloads (equipment).

Your Mr. Cook was talking to me long before you ever came into the picture...so take that for what it is worth. He is building his subject around everything he has learned from viewing this site and others.

Heaven forbid the suspects and stories that are surfacing now, but then I told you this is what would happen. Even more of the governments money will be spent checking out fabricated suspects than ever before.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The military did have a few 727s (called C 22s). I have done a lot of reading and can find no evidence of the military ever using 727s for dropping anything. They were used to haul people, just like the airlines did.

Boeing did the flight tests with stairs deployed. The purpose is still subject to dispute. Some say it was a safety issue to see what would happen if a passenger accidently opened the rear door in flight. I don't buy it. The information was not published in any airline flight manuals which have almost all their content from Boeing.

Others say the US govt commissioned the flight tests to see if they could do covert airdrops from planes flying as airliners over countries of interest.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Galen sure picked an odd paper to launch his story. This Depoe Bay Beacon paper tries to look like the scandal sheets... you know, the ones in the supermarket checkout stands that feature half breed alien babies and Brittney's latest antics. My girlfriend pretends that I am just a stranger in line ahead of her when I read one of them.

If "Wolfgang" Gosset turns out to be Cooper then we really have to give Galen the credit he deserves because this guy wasn't on our lists. Galen sure seems to be sticking his neck out pretty far if he doesn't have solid evidence.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I offered to compare prints and do DNA testing on the suspect Cook brought forward but he would not provide the suspects complete information to me. We went round and round for months and he always claimed the client/lawyer relationship prevented him from giving me the individuals name. Guess the real problem was a book in the making.



ckret, have read the article now which implies they offered the FBI the prints and the FBI wouldn't check them?? Is this because you didn't have a name ?

I agree with 377 this is an odd choice as the paper to break the news... the story is as engaging as any other though, and at least this is someone with proven experience of surviving that type of jump. I also agree with whoever said that this really looks the closest out of all the suspect photos we have seen so far.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is there any possible means to get from the bathroom into the toilet reservoir to hide in?


...............
In regards to the no jump theory i answered that, there was no place for Cooper to conceal himself on the plane and not be discovered and the only way to create the pressure bump is to jump from the stairs and have the stairs slam back into the plane.
.............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I HAVE a RIGHT to explore these so called theories just as everyone else has.



Actually, none of us have a right to explore anything on this website. We get to use the site as a privilege.

Since you have yet to post any sort of tangible evidence your conspiracy theory about the FBI covering up your ex-lover as Cooper, then all we have to establish your story is your credibility. So actually, the investigation would be about proving or disproving your credibility.

Either way, others tend to post some sort of evidence to show their theories. Maps, documents, etc. You've been asked to post some actual evidence to support your position. Not blame on the FBI, not another post where you say "fact" and list some circumstantial and unprovable opinion, just post some honest to god evidence. Something that is tangible and could sway those of us who believe you actually have some sort of mental illness.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Even more of the governments money will be spent checking out fabricated suspects than ever before.



Well, that's an... interesting perspective. From what I understand all they are looking for is a fingerprint/DNA test. Like what they did with Duane. How do they decide who is "fabricated" without doing any checks? It's not as if they have anything conclusive on anyone presented to date. And before you go on about the thousand other alleys you want the FBI to investigate, please refer back to your own sentence above - or is it up to you to choose what "even more of the government's money" should be spent on?

And for all the concern about the contamination of the DNA on the tie, one thing I doubt anyone would reject would be if the DNA found actually matches someone else - ditto the fingerprints. That would be pretty conclusive evidence. I for one am interested to see where Mr Cook's photo-matching, paratrooper-experienced suspect leads us ;)
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

During the radio interview, the son mentioned that his dad showed him two safety deposit box keys. The boxes were allegedly (everybody says that, seems more official ;)) in Vancouver, Canada.

There is always some plausible deniability there because there are too many outs:
"The keys disappeared."
"Another person (ex-spouse) has the keys and/or denies having them." (Handy coverup/conspiracy technique)
"We check the boxes and the money was all gone."

If the son has just a couple of the bills, done deal.
Show me one.

They have THE proof. Bills, fingerprints, DNA. If they don't produce something soon, it will start to sound like an empty book promotion.

Let's face it, if someone had the real deal, book money is nothing. There would be a mega-money movie deal waiting out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi 377,
good info.
question:
your post implies some fuzziness that I'm not sure needs to be so fuzzy? Remember the transcripts have these odd statements at 6:59 (page 12)

"MSP FLT OPS HAVE NO CNTRL PROBLEM WHEN XTNDD
MAY BE SUM SLITE PITCHUP BUT ERY CNTRLLBL
PLANE HAS BEEN FLOWN THIS WAY HAVE LARGE
BOXES OF 2 T0 3HND LBS THRU THE DOOR IN THIS
CONFIG"

So that doesn't sound like "safety" test results. It sounds like airdrops. Unless maybe it's just throwing garbage out the door during a test?. They then go on to specify
"..MUST BE DOWN WITH LANDING FLAPS"

So where did this info come from that was then relayed on the radio?

I guess we've been thru this before. It seemed like maybe you forgot this part of the transcripts? Am I misinterpreting your post? or the transcripts?

Quote

The military did have a few 727s (called C 22s). I have done a lot of reading and can find no evidence of the military ever using 727s for dropping anything. They were used to haul people, just like the airlines did.

Boeing did the flight tests with stairs deployed. The purpose is still subject to dispute. Some say it was a safety issue to see what would happen if a passenger accidently opened the rear door in flight. I don't buy it. The information was not published in any airline flight manuals which have almost all their content from Boeing.

Others say the US govt commissioned the flight tests to see if they could do covert airdrops from planes flying as airliners over countries of interest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snowman,

You and Sluggo have bigger memory buffers and higher processing power than my head has. I need a cerebral processor upgrade!

I totally agree with you, sounds like air drop test info. If it was a safety of flight issue it would have been disseminated to all operators and included in all flt manuals. The landing flap setting says (to me) preplanned operation, not accidental door opening scenario.

Somewhere I read about a guy who claimed to have made HALO jumps on behalf of Uncle Sam from 727s. Just can't find it.

Maybe it was fiction from Navy Seals book. The author claims SEALs are trained to jump from commercial jets. See below:

"EYE FOR DETAILS
In taut prose with an eye for edgey details, Pfarrer's book leads the reader through the hell of SEAL training. The story is aided by the fact that Pfarrer's post-SEAL career is that of a screenwriter whose credits include the films "Red Planet," "Hard Target," "Virus," "Darkman," "The Jackal" and "Navy SEALS," among others. His writing background distinguishes "Warrior Soul" from the macho bombast found in other SEAL genre books. It's a page-turner which captures a SEAL commando's mindset with a cinematic sense of drama and carefully-honed details.
One learns the hazards of having your spine snap or having your hips pop out of your pelvis from such a feat in the wash of the jet's engine. You learn that SEALs may jump out of commercial jets flying over hostile territory -- Cuba, Libya, Syria -- because the enemy isn't expecting that sort of "D. B. Cooper" infiltration. SEALs pack up to 150 lbs. of equipment and jump from heights of 35,000 feet on oxygen, drifting 20 miles to their targets, or from as low as 2,000 feet.
Pfarrer notes that his last jump with the SEALs -- one of 300 -- ended with his parachute failing to open at 500 feet, falling at 176 mph on his last night in the service. If you want to learn how he survived the jump, check out the book."

I think Boeing did the 727 tests for Uncle Sam. In 1971 VERY few knew about the tests. Cooper knew something about it, perhaps not privvy to the whole test results (as evidenced by his ordering a stairs down takeoff) , but he knew you could fly with the door open and stairs down. Not even the pilots of the NWA 727 knew this.

Maybe those C 22s were bought for special missions. Maybe they just flew pax as a cover when not being used for special ops stuff. It is odd but not unprecedented for the military to buy just a couple of some kind of plane for regular service. It is very inefficient from a logistics standpoint: big investment in servicing, spares inventories, training etc. All that takes a ton of work and money which is nuts if you only have a few of the planes in your fleet. I didnt even know the military had 727s until I looked on Google. It is an odd purchase because they had so many other planes in the fleet that could do the same pax hauling job. None of those "other" planes, however, could masquerade as ailiners and had jumpable ventral doors.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wanted to throw this out as theory, because as far as I can tell:

1) the pilots didn't understand you could deploy in flight, yet we're relying on their (or others) testimony in the transcripts that you can't take off with stairs deployed.

2) They thought the stairs would sustain worse damage on landing, such that you couldn't stow them. That appears to have been wrong. It looks like the cloth panels on the stairs were shredded due to wind. You can see that in the "Rommel" photo I posted, or at sluggo's site from the Cronkite video.

So we have a lot of apparently wrong opinions about what you can do with airstairs deployed, yet we're supposed to believe you can't take off?

We know the stairs move up to maybe 2 ft opening when flying "reasonably fast". I'm guessing based on some recent news articles where 727 stairs have opened in flight even though Cooper Vane installed. They're supposed to test them during the preflight but I suspect sometimes the Vane doesn't twist right with airflow. I found 2 cases where 727 stairs opened in flight in the last 12 years or so (if memory serves correct).

So if the stairs will fold up a bit, shouldn't that protect them on takeoff?

Until there is other evidence presented, I'm theorizing that you can take off in a 727 with airstairs deployed.

I don't know if it's been tried. But there's no evidence that says it's not possible, and related evidence we have suggests it might be possible.

Remember: we don't care if the stairs are damaged a little, as long as you can still jump from them, and fly the plane.

We've accepted this "Cooper was wrong about the stairs" idea as fact, yet there is no evidence that says Cooper was wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

22 22