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quade

DB Cooper

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..................
maybe the flight crew was part of the operation? ive had thoughts of this.... Seems the case has been "guided" in the wrong direction, maybe for a reason.



Better Watch Out - I get it everytime I throw in the conspiracy thing . With all of the research I have been doing regarding the fact that the FBI does NOT answer some questions that seem pertinent --- does give one reason to pause.

I have been busy researching the 727 crashes and I did find something interesting regarding the Salt Lake City 727 crash in 1965...and there were 3 crashes within a 4 month period during 1965 of 727's.

3 more 727 crashes in 1969 and top that off with 1 crash in 1971.

Did the FBI investigate this possibility - that the hijacking might have been related to the fatality rates with the 727's?
:)Senario: Cooper or a friend knew some one in one of the 1965 crashes. They are in a prison - these prisoners sit around and talk about doing the BIG one...to pass time. Some of these inmates have been in the War and some are experienced drug runners (like a pilot). Moving drugs - such as Casa Grande...stealing planes. They cook up this idea, but no one is ever going to do it - right!.

A few yrs pass and one of the inmates has been out of prison and trying to make it - but all he gets is low paying jobs - cleaning garbage cans, washing dishes, busing tables. He is getting by working 3 jobs at one time.

Then in late 1970 or early 1971 - he finds out he has an illness - he has been in the hospital - now he is knee deep indebt. He goes back to a life of crime.

First there is a wife and stepchildren - the kids get fed up and go to their aunts' home in another state.
The wife loves her husband, but she has lost her children - she leaves this man. The love of his life is gone - he has a disease he is told will put him on a kidney machine in a short time.

Thanksgiving is coming up - what he is living off of he is stealing and that is going to put him back in prison if he gets caught.

He is a man with NO family.:|
They gave up on him yrs before - he had not seen his brother or spoke to him since right after his father died in the 1950's. He calls his sister ever few yrs, but she doesn't know where he is calling from - he has been on the run most of his life.

We know from the exwife that he had reasons to go to WA and OR and has contacts there. His brother was with Boeing and at one time owned property in the Seattle area. He is very familiar with the 727's.

B|All of that Boeing information he had carried around inside his head for yrs. was refreshed in the prison - when the cell mates planned the BIG one.

Between a couple of his stays in multiple prisons he had the "opportunity" around 1962 to be in association with known Mafia out of Chicago and LA.
Through this association he learns how to sharpe shoot and jump - those yrs he remembers with remorse, but he has in 1971 a basic skill he is going to use.

Washington state - he knows it like the back of his hand from 1945 to 1950. No one will remember him. If he pulls it off OK, but if he bites the dust SO BE IT. Once he handed that note to the stewardess there was no going back. Duane was never one to back down...yet he never hurt anyone in his life except maybe to defend himself. Always the goof ball growing up - always getting into something...but always taking the blame and full responsiblity if he got anyone else in trouble.

;)He chose #18 because that was the day he was born on and the 24th because that is the yr he was born and Thanksgiving, because it was convenient and Wa. because he knew a man there - who was a caretaker (FBI you never checked that one out) - perhaps they had been in prison together.

If he didn't pull this off he was going to end-up back in prison anyway, but if he made it then he had enough to live off of for sometime - the rest of his life...or so he thought.

Ripley's Belive It or Not - :)he survived - and knew if he ever got in trouble with the authorities that he would go back to prison for the rest of his life. He had to go straight - he faltered during the first few yrs - but for the next 24 yrs he managed for the most part to stay out of trouble.

He had a good life.
One little Indian, Two little Indian - Pick up one and tie my shoe. Wonder what Tina thought about that.
Duane had in his possession a picture of a little girl with braided sandy - light hair - a white blouse and a plaid skirt. The photo seemed to have water damage.....I have repeatedly asked if Tina gave Cooper something or if he took something from her.

[:/]Also I have asked if Florence Shaffner was doing the Denver to Atlanta routes for the airlines in 1978 and 1979. The first time I had to fly with Duane was back to Atlanta and he got real nervous about one of the Stews. He said he didn't want her to recognize him - I assumed it was an old girl friend.

After seeing photos of Florence Shaffner from around that time - I think it was her. He seemed relieved that this stewardess was in 1st Class and he changed seats with me (buried himself in a magazine with his head down) - he always asked for rows 17 or 18 when we flew.

Past the theories around and speculate all you want, but everything I know about Duane Weber says he was Dan Cooper and he told me was Dan Cooper 17 yrs later...but the dumb bunny (me) didn't know who Dan Cooper was.:D:D:D
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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thanks.

so whuffo means:
"why do they do that?"

i must confess the question never occured to me. people do what they do. or as g. m. hopkins says:

"As king fishers catch fire, dragonflies draw flame;
...
Each mortal thing does one thing and the same:
...
Selves - goes itself; myself it speaks and spells,
Crying What I do is me: for that I came. "


i assumed whuffo meant something like: a person who hasn't got a clue. (which is probably also contained in the definition.)
thanks again.

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related theories:
-burial post '71 due to '74 dredge clay layer
-random drift after '74 dredge clay layer, from random '71 deposit.
-just random coincidence in timing
-rubber bands and their rot behavior
-dredging dispersal
-money bag drift/rot dispersal
-just plain random dispersal
-adhesion properties of wet dollar bills and relationship to known decomposition patterns of recovered bills.



;)HEY! You for got one.
Duane Weber threw it into the Columbia in the Fall of 1979 because when he dug it up it was "useless".
That one it the WHOLE truth and NOTHING but the TRUTH.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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At the worst, the store manager would pull out his counterfeit detecting pen and run it across the face of the bill.... and when no black mark appeared, he'd know it was real.

Then he'd look and say "wow, vintage bill"...

Who knows what happens then, but certainly no secret service.



Actually, in my personal experience, you would be surprised. Without a watermark and without a security strip, that manager making $25k a year doesn't want to take responsibility for a possibly bad bill and tends to default to calling the PD or SO.

To them it looks like a washed/dipped counterfeit. If you look into the modern counterfeit, you'd get a clear picture.

;)
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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i realize this general profile of suicides has some diagnostic value.
i also recall that not too many years ago the profession that was most susceptible to suicides was psychiatry. (probably a lot of left handed guys in the business.)

to those who do tend to the suicide notion i would reply: personally i don't see how anyone comes up with the notion of committing suiced in this case. i mean dan went to a hell of a lot of trouble to commit suicide didn't he? couldn't he just have jumped off a high bridge? no. the premise from which people who follow this hypothesis seem to be working, is that dan didn't know what he was doing. i personally see no evidence of that. he knows what the plane is like etc. when it comes to the jump i think it well to recall, what has been said here before: he was alone in the cabin. no one saw what he was wearing or how he had tied the money to his body etc. when he jumped. and of course no one has any information on what he was wearing when he landed.


i see no shred of evidence for a person taking all the trouble he did to hijack a plane just to leave the whole success of the venture up to a dangerous jump for which he was in no way -- training, clothing etc. prepared. the man that is revealed to me by the earlier part of the story is prudent; the man who purportedly is found in the second half is not. but remember: the second half is the one in which no one was present to observe him.

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n467us

1) There is nothing preventing their release and they have been released. Someone just needs to scan them.

2) I didn't understand the process either so I repeat what I am told by the lab, I leave the science to them, knuckle dragging to me.

3) The tie was not taken to the McCoy family

4) No hat

5) We used Cossey and two others for help, the chute was ruled out for a number of reason and no it is not being investigated by the FBI

6) There was never any realistic way to track the money.

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I had deleted my post about the 727 crash that killed a bunch of people that year, with planned final dest. of Seattle.

If you start musing about suicide run theories, and Sluggo's list of contributors (loss of partner), you can see how that info might be useful just to muse on. (not contributing to revenge theory but to state of mind theory).

It's just interesting how data can be perceived to be worthless or not, depending on what we're all thinking about at a point in time. But everyone's right, data and theory should be presented correctly to avoid pollution.

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Theory: Agent H. was biased to trust the testimony of aviation folk (fliers or otherwise) and not suspect them as highly as other demographic groups

fact: Agent H. was a flier (apparently private pilot..don't know about other experience)

fact: interviews with Agent H. where he states his frame of mind

http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index5.html

” But what about a lone employee? Himmelsbach ruled this out too. “If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry,” he explained, “they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and the values and the character of normal, average Americans.”

Depending on your point of view, that's an odd statement that could be read as someone trying to justify some action taken in the past.

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This is a real photo of a real person. untouched.

It was taken probably 1954 or 1955. subject was probably
31 or 32. Would be 48 in 1971.

I was wondering how people react to it. Just free associate.

There is no theory or anything with this. It's just a rorschach test.

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Theory: Cooper may have been closer to a hiking/camping/climbing/mountaineering/ex-military demographic than a jumping demographic

fact: the language used in the original demand.
"knapsack" was used, which probably was not a widely used term in 1971. (outdoor recreational sports were not as widespread as today).

fact: Used the words "back" and "chest" for parachutes, but evidently those are not the words a jumper would use. Although it has been pointed out he may have used language directed to nonjumpers. But: he would know the language would be passed on to riggers/jumpers, so even if he initially was talking to nonjumpers, he probably would have used the right technical language to be sure of getting the right thing.

When I need ckret to get me an AK-47 and an oxy acetylene torch as I'm holding hostages in the bank, that's what I ask for, no matter who is taking the message. Because I want exactly the right thing (as far as my knowledge goes.)

related fact: I think Cooper may have provided his own knife for cutting shroud lines. ckret has not provided info we can digest on this.

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Theory: disgruntled aviation engineer/test pilot/something who decides the "higher-ups" are avoiding fixing a problem that needs to be fixed...i.e. the aft stairs can be opened in flight.

fact: the Cooper vane was invented/deployed after the cooper incident (actually after the 1972 incidents but they were triggered by Cooper? (copycat))

fact: no one was hurt. so maybe the ends justified the means. i.e. a safety or security threat was fixed. Maybe Cooper perceived himself to be a savior, or railing against bureaucracy.

counter fact: asked for money. But maybe there were a lot of contributing reasons to state of mind. For instance a project being cancelled, business failure, laid off, fired, partner loss etc. This theory could be a small part of overall state of mind. Imagine if you had a 17 year old that came up for the Vietnam draft in 1971 and you couldn't get him into college (deferment) for money reasons. Just musing.

I mention this theory, because I had similar thought processes and deliberately crashed a large number of computers in a Fortune 500 company to demonstrate the need to fix issues customers were exposed to, that the company was turning a blind eye to.

What happens, is you justify your actions "for the better good".

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” But what about a lone employee? Himmelsbach ruled this out too. “If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry,” he explained, “they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and the values and the character of normal, average Americans.”



Yeah, like the Greenwich police looking for an "outsider" because they couldn't comprehend of an upright Greenwich citizen murdering Martha Moxley.

As for knapsack, even I remember that word from the early 70s (and I'm on the other side of the world).
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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Theory: there has been speculation Cooper had no family. But maybe he did and had life insurance but no job. May have convinced himself that he'd either get the money, but if he didn't (and died) that maybe they'd be able to collect insurance (if body not found).

basically the "I'm worth more to them dead, then alive"

correlated to depression/lack of fear theories.

counterfact: I suppose the FBI would have investigated any random "no body found" cases. But as noted, aviation insiders might not have been thoroughly investigated due to Agent H. bias. But maybe Cooper was successful, so there was no disappearance..so it played into Cooper's state of mind only.

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It was taken probably 1954 or 1955. subject was probably
31 or 32. Would be 48 in 1971.

I was wondering how people react to it. Just free associate.

There is no theory or anything with this. It's just a rorschach test.




Okay snowmman, I’ll play your silly game :)

The photo:
Not a professional Photographer (or at least not professional equipment).
Monochromatic consistent with mid ‘50s
Taken from back right seat.
Not a candid photo, but not a serious pose.

Setting:
Onboard a Cessna 172/182 or possibly a Piper PA-28 (Cherokee, Warrior, Arrow, etc)
Night time, Inside Hanger (even possibly a night flight, even though yoke position is inconsistent with normal (straight and level) flight attitude)

Subject:
Young (29-35), white, male. Aprox. 180-183 lbs. 5’ -10”
Somewhat of a thrill-seeker. (High testosterone, evidenced by secondary sex characteristics, early receding hairline, body hair, bushy eyebrows, etc).
Jacket associated more with auto racing or sports cars than aviation (also see occasion).
Upper-mid to upper income level. (Clothing, dental health)
Probably a drinker but not a smoker.
Early stages of a weight problem. (Possibly due to previous high-level physical activity, but no longer participates.

Occasion:
The photo was taken for a special occasion (1st solo, first solo cross-country, License check ride, or the purchase/lease of a new aircraft.)

In 1971:
By 1971 this individual would have complete male-pattern baldness. He would weigh around 230 – 250 lbs. Would have obesity associated health problems, Hypertension, Diabetes-Mellitus II, High Cholesterol/Lipids.

Is that what your looking for? How’d I do?

Sluggo_Monster

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damn sluggo, that's excellent feedback.
I hope you're not in the next bank I rob, or ckret
will have me in 3 secs :)

I'm frigging amazed by your height/weight estimate.
I don't know the subject's data at that point, but I'm really interested in how you could just whip off an estimate like that.

What if I said the subject was intensely involved in a big project during the years preceding 1971. Would that lower your weight estimate for 1971? i.e. he was working in the commercial industry in 1971, but maybe military in '54 (more relaxed then, military food etc..whatever I dunno)

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Hi Nick. doesn't camping/hiking demographic include the Boy Scout demographic you're mentioning?


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>>"knapsack" was used, which probably was not a widely used term in 1971.<<

Not even close. We used the term "knapsack" in the 60s when I was a Boy Scout . . .

NickD :)

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” But what about a lone employee? Himmelsbach ruled this out too. “If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry,” he explained, “they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and the values and the character of normal, average Americans.”



Yeah, like the Greenwich police looking for an "outsider" because they couldn't comprehend of an upright Greenwich citizen murdering Martha Moxley.

As for knapsack, even I remember that word from the early 70s (and I'm on the other side of the world).



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Two former students of a drug rehab center, which Michael Skakel attended in 1978, testified that they heard Skakel confess to killing Moxley with a golf club after she refused to have sexual intercourse with him. He then bragged, "I'm going to get away with murder. I'm a Kennedy."



It is more difficult to investigate the Kennedy family than your average airline employee. Police don't lose their jobs for talking to aircraft employees.

A friend and I were talking about intra-company networking once. It seems like he said that there were 6 aircraft plants with 100,000 employees in Portland at one point.

Statistically, there has to be a few unhappy and dysfunctional people among a number that large.
Manufacturing requires a diverse skill set.
Many people could have the knowledge required to plan this crime. Welders, designers, fabricators, many skills.

There would have to be 5,000 employees who fit the suspect list.

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As far as I can tell none of those listed 727 crashes were due to any fault on Boeing's part. Many early 727 crashes were due to newly trained jet pilots getting into an excessive sink rate on approach in a 727. They had to "unlearn" old habits from flying prop planes. Hard to see Boeing revenge as a logical motive.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Personal opinion alert...

I'm not buying the "plane crashes" idea as having any relevance whatsoever.

I also think there's someone here who tends to post a lot and has an undisclosed agenda/suspect.

Sluggo, great posts as usual.

I happen to disagree with the "Wal-Mart would call in a classic bill because it doesn't look like the new ones of the last 5-6 yrs" theory.

Seeing a 1969 vintage bill in circulation would be weird, no doubt about it. But to think some idiot would call up the secret service "uh, I have a $20 bill from 1969 and it doesn't look like the modern multi-colored bills. Can someone come over and check it out before we take it the bank and deposit it?"

Like I said, one quick pen stroke on that bill, and everyone would know it was authentic. When taken to the bank, it would probably get sent to the reserve, where they may just take it out of circulation....

I'm also pretty sure no would take the time to whip out their ransom list from 1971 and double check all 10,000 numbers against their rare $20 bill.

But, of course, strict opinion here.

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>>Onboard a Cessna 172/182 or possibly a Piper PA-28 (Cherokee, Warrior, Arrow, etc)<<

You know about aircraft like you know about skydiving.

That's at least a large cabin class twin, or even a small airliner, judging by the high glare shield (top of dashboard) and yoke (the steering wheel) and the armrest (the thing you rest your lower arm on) . . .

NickD :)

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I'm incorporating/riffing on some thoughts expressed by other posters

theory: Pilot Scott recognized or thought he recognized Cooper

facts: (i may be incorrect. will edit based on feedback]
Pilot Scott never tried to sneak a glance at Cooper to assess threat level subjectively? relied on secondhand info? Seems the personality that would "captain the ship" would want firsthand info, even fleeting. Maybe he did get a glance, but denied it afterwards to avoid having to give a description.

fact: There wasn't a strong attempt to determine threat level post Cooper jump prediction. Either because they believed an attempt to do that would increase the threat or Scott knew the threat didn't exist after predicted Cooper exit..i.e. Scott knew Cooper didn't have a bomb or wouldn't leave one.

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Nick is likely correct on the airliner. I'm not an airplane expert, and my source data is a little weak. I can say the likely plane, based on other info, if people want to make more guesses.

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>>Onboard a Cessna 172/182 or possibly a Piper PA-28 (Cherokee, Warrior, Arrow, etc)<<

You know about aircraft like you know about skydiving.

That's at least a large cabin class twin, or even a small airliner, judging by the high glare shield (top of dashboard) and yoke (the steering wheel) and the armrest (the thing you rest your lower arm on) . . .

NickD :)

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