DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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FOIA files on DB Cooper are available on the FBI website, though as I understand these are not "everything" - ckret correct me if i am wrong on this.

They suck.

My scrapbook has better info!

Sluggo

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[snowmman 3]

theory:
Lake Merwin was the targeted drop zone.

theory:
Previously stashed float plane was exit strategy

facts:
[you can pick. maybe none. I use "more probability than other theories" but that's me]

[edit] weak "supporting or non-denying facts"
-all flight path info-crunching points to correct FBI drop zone calcs for Lake Merwin area?
-other info deductions suggest Cooper was pilot?
-float plane would be easier to have no traces/logs (compared to airfields..don't know if any in area. people might comment)
-aft stair placard may have launched right before jump and find location is consistent with theory? (please confirm/deny)
-lake large enough for visual identification thru cloud cover prior to jump at 10k ft.
-lake actually very large. Lots of landing/takeoff options with float plane.
-lake crosses the V23 path, and as been pointed out, a pilot familar with the area could be reasonably sure that the known verbal commands would result in a Lake Merwin crossing. Key is the possible visual recognition at night. (and no lights?)
-the recently found chute could be the training chute, and ckret could be withholding info for some reason.
Only questioning, with no negative slight to ckret, because of
1) inconsistent reality on 1946 date and news reports
2) unanswered questions we've asked about knife/cutting implement, and
3) unanswered question on whether money bundles (two) may have been found stacked/stuck/aligned together, implying human burial rather than float/dredge dispersal.
(getting direct answers here will remove this)

-Shoes/clothes/detection/walking/food/water on travel to nearest hub of humanity was not an issue then. Easy to make all gear (chute, etc) disappear forever. On foot you probably wouldn't carry chute. so why not discovered? Automobile could work, but harder to avoid comment on? Also: reason for parked float plane may have been lied about. Pilots given higher trust/social status, possibly incorrectly.

-freezing due to exposure in woods overnite not an issue.

-cars limited to roads. more detection possibilities? plane could have been stashed so not visible, or at least people don't approach it and investigate (too far out on water)

-all out search was delayed somewhat because of weather/whatever. So float plane could have taken off that evening or even next morning.

-noise of float plane by witnesses could have been mistaken for the original 727 noise. Plane noise was reported in the area? (attributed to chase planes etc?)

[Greene 0]

Happy you did not leave, and glad to have you and your input back to the forum.

You do not have to limit your post to one a day. This is an open forum, and you should be able to post information that you find informative, and yes, you can speculate!! Look at the incident forums. Posters post speculation all the time and most of the time they are not deleted or banned from that site.

Don't ramble in a post and keep it civil with new information and you will be welcomed. Welcomed by some, or most of us except the few nay-sayers, and that is ok because they have their opinion and think this is "garbage talk". That opinion is ok, because a lot of other threads are "garbage talk".

I do agree that some posters to this thread are rude, crude and they should not click on the DB Cooper link if it makes them angry. If you don't like what is here then just not opening this this thread would be a smart move from their point of view, and might even let them lower their blood pressure medicine.

I don't open some links because I know they just might offend me and my "delicate" senses. So why would they ever open this link?
If the do open this link and post rude remarks, let it go and forget about them.

Lee West, not Jim,
but I have been around as long has he has, just not that many skydives.

[Ckret 0]

I agree snowman post away, I also think formating as you did will help all who are not up on all of the facts to understand you are basing your theory on nothing more than speculation. It really will help to stop "myth makers."

[snowmman 3]

I have a tie bar speculation that without maturity will invite wasted energy.

It would be very nice to have the older folk respond to see if there are readers that wore ties and tie bars in the late '60s and early '70s and have information on what the men they typically hung with would wear and what they would not wear. Even to the extent of what presents from girlfriends or wives might look like.

This could be within an aviation subgroup, or men at large.

If there are no readers that might be able to provide firsthand info in response to my thought. I won't post.
I'll wait till tomorrow.

For instance, I wore tie clips in the late 60's and 70's
only cause I was a kid going to a catholic school. I remember I got all my clips stolen from my dad's drawer, and have a memory from that of typical styles, for East Coast telephone engineering/system folk.

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo

The crew had no idea if Cooper was on the plane or off. They were guessing the pressure bump was his exit but weren't sure and not willing to go check it out. When they got to Reno for the schedule re-fueling they called back several times for him to put the stairs up or they would not be able to take-off. The stairs were not locked in the down position, just flapping around, so I dont think there was much damage other than some dings on the paint.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ckret,

As always, a BIG Thanks.

So, how long after the flight did the crew “decide” the pressure bump was when he left (You guys were searching 4 states on the 27th & 28th), and decide where they were (8:13 or “Not to PDX but in the suburbs”)?

I’ve done some research today and found out some things that surprised me.

First:

The aircraft Registration #N467US; Serial Number (C/N) 18803 was not a Boeing 727-200 as most literature indicates, nor was it a Boeing 727-100 as some literature states, but was instead a Boeing 727-51 which no literature (that I’m aware of) has stated. The plane had 134 seats.

Also:
I found a photo of a healthy 272 Aft Door/Stairway. Now I see how it works and better understand the terms “open” and “extended”. The stairs come up out of the shell (like the arms on a hospital bed). The door is lowered by gravity or hydraulically (if in flight), and locked mechanically or hydraulically.

Nothing extends beyond the door-shell. So the stairs were not shredded on landing at Reno as has oft been purported.

See Photos: Note the Cooper Vane on the healthy plane.



Sluggo_Monster.

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[ltdiver 3]

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one last question. from the context i have an idea of what a "whuffo" is. still i would appreciate a definition.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page: http://www.chattanoogaskydive.com/adventure/jargon.html

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

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Well now, this should be interesting. I have a feeling that a request to do a tandem night jump out the jet would probably be vetoed - and that itself (bearing in mind this is over a nice big safe landing area) should give the whuffos some idea of how dangerous the jump would have been. If it can get approved because some super-experienced TI gets it approved, then i really do believe ckret, safe et al should take the opportunity and go!

Solution to the 'night jump' tandem. Day jump and just put a complete darkening blindfold on the tandem student before exiting.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[low_pull1 2]

................

I think you and the Conister's need to extend a couple of invites to Ckret and a couple others for somthing no other FBI Agent on the case has experience

.............................

and have him and Jo "spot" together @ 10K ft then see what they say here.

[n467us 0]

Stupid question...

What does "LE Surprise Party" refer to??? thanks

[low_pull1 2]

..................
So why didn't the flight crew's actions match the threat? Why did they go tooling through the skies all the way to Reno? Medford was discussed or they could have put the airplane down in Portland.
.......................

maybe the flight crew was part of the operation? ive had thoughts of this.... Seems the case has been "guided" in the wrong direction, maybe for a reason.

[snowmman 3]

theory: Cooper didn't really care if he lived or died.

fact: Reading some 1971 newspaper articles from the Seattle area, they report an increase in suicide rates because of the local economic depression from Boeing layoffs. Other theories speculate on WA-area residence, so Seattle-specific data might apply.

fact: [I don't have a reference] I think suicide rates tend to peak around holidays. People don't like being alone and start stewing about their situation. Maybe Cooper had recently lost a partner, maybe on top of unemployment. In terms of "why Thanksgiving eve", suicide wasn't listed before.

[edit]
strong contrary fact: Cooper seemed to attempt to limit evidence (notes). Didn't leave much. Suicide run probably wouldn't be thinking that clearly? There is lack of planning, but not enough lack of planning? Alias use etc. suggests strong assumption of successful outcome.

related issue: comparing fear control/display to normal sport jumping fear issues, might be invalid, since sport jumper optionally can stop at last moment before exit. Cooper was committed once the plan started rolling, since the only other option was likely jail time. i.e. he pulled the rip once he passed the note.


There were some other suicide-hijackings of mental cases in 1971. Those seemed more random? profile doesn't fit? Would suicide run be more likely to be copycat of prior, rather than "first to do the new thing"


related speculation: there are various theories that the event lacked high level planning. Could be correlated.

also maybe correlated to absolute lack of fear at the jump exit.

[n467us 0]

Ckret, I have these questions I'd like to ask about - thank you for any light you can shed:

Q: What is contained in the missing communication (radio) logs that would warrant their non-release??

Q: Have never understood how DNA was extracted from a clip on tie -- from the metal clip contacting body?? From a stain on the tie??

Q: Jo Weber alleged that the tie had been taken and shown to a third party (McCoy family) -- is that true, and if so doesn't that taint the evidence because of it being handled??

Q: Did the witnesses description include Cooper wearing a hat when boarding, and if so was it found??

Q: RE: The most recent parachute "find" that was false, was there any authentication besides the Crossley (sic?) guy, and any theories on why a chute would have been buried there (were prior land owners questioned, etc.) ?? Is this still being investigated??

Q: The money -- if I had a Cooper $20 bill and spent it at Wal*Mart today (an example...) is it realistic to assume bells & sirens would go off?? My point of asking is to determine how likely it is that none of the $$ was ever spent.

THANK YOU for your help!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

n467us,

LE is Law Enforcement.

I have no LE experience, but I'd bet all the LEAs (Law Enforcement Agencies) rushed to cover every inch of the Reno Airport before the plane landed. So, it probably looked like a surprise party when they jumped out from behind every bush, building, porta-potty, baggage-truck, stair carrier, and fuel truck and shouted “SURPRISE”.
…. Only the joke was on them, he didn’t come to the party.


You that jeep-driver from Texas?

Sluggo_Monster

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[NickDG 23]

>>What does "LE Surprise Party" refer to???
Being ambushed by the cops (Law Enforcement) . . .

NickD

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

The most likely suicide victim is:

White, male, middle aged or older, has chronic or terminal illness, is left handed, scores high on the xxx(I can’t remember its name) test for depression* and has had a relative or loved-one who committed suicide.

Source: A psychiatrist I saw for a while after my father’s suicide.

* It measures depression by assigning a score based on things like how many times you have moved in the last 18 months the death of a spouse or child, loss of employment, etc.


The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Says:

Psychiatric Disorders
At least 90 percent of people who kill themselves have a diagnosable and treatable psychiatric illnesses -- such as major depression, bipolar depression, or some other depressive illness, including:
Schizophrenia
Alcohol or drug abuse, particularly when combined with depression
Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or some other anxiety disorder
Bulimia or anorexia nervousa
Personality disorders especially borderline or antisocial
Past History of Attempted Suicide
Between 20 and 50 percent of people who kill themselves had previously attempted suicide. Those who have made serious suicide attempts are at a much higher risk for actually taking their lives.
Genetic Predisposition
Family history of suicide, suicide attempts, depression or other psychiatric illness.
Neurotransmitters
A clear relationship has been demonstrated between low concentrations of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleactic acid (5-HIAA) in cerebrospinal fluid and an increased incidence of attempted and completed suicide in psychiatric patients.
Impulsivity
Impulsive individuals are more apt to act on suicidal impulses.
Demographics
Sex: Males are three to five times more likely to commit suicide than females.
Age: Elderly Caucasian males have the highest suicide rates.


Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

I sent good old Sluggo a PM that was my virtual pat on the back. So assume sensitivity displayed, and now a practical thought.

It got me wondering. Now there's nothing for you guys to be worried about with me, but I was wondering how many folks out there may have a flickering self-identify with this case...a "there but for xxx go I" and can actually see how it can happen.

Although I've not thought of it for some time. I hung out when I was young,basically my best/only friend, John.. from 11 to 13. And always felt I abandoned him when he got too crazy. I was supposed to be the one that always kept us out of trouble, not caught by the cops. And was successful.

He died eventually with cops knocking at the door, and him sticking the gun in his mouth. I sometimes think of that "two possible paths..." and how close one can be to mental disaster.

Quote

The most likely suicide victim is:

White, male, middle aged or older, has chronic or terminal illness, is left handed, scores high on the xxx(I can’t remember its name) test for depression* and has had a relative or loved-one who committed suicide.

Source: A psychiatrist I saw for a while after my father’s suicide.

* It measures depression by assigning a score based on things like how many times you have moved in the last 18 months the death of a spouse or child, loss of employment, etc.


The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Says:

Psychiatric Disorders
At least 90 percent of people who kill themselves have a diagnosable and treatable psychiatric illnesses -- such as major depression, bipolar depression, or some other depressive illness, including:
Schizophrenia
Alcohol or drug abuse, particularly when combined with depression
Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or some other anxiety disorder
Bulimia or anorexia nervousa
Personality disorders especially borderline or antisocial
Past History of Attempted Suicide
Between 20 and 50 percent of people who kill themselves had previously attempted suicide. Those who have made serious suicide attempts are at a much higher risk for actually taking their lives.
Genetic Predisposition
Family history of suicide, suicide attempts, depression or other psychiatric illness.
Neurotransmitters
A clear relationship has been demonstrated between low concentrations of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleactic acid (5-HIAA) in cerebrospinal fluid and an increased incidence of attempted and completed suicide in psychiatric patients.
Impulsivity
Impulsive individuals are more apt to act on suicidal impulses.
Demographics
Sex: Males are three to five times more likely to commit suicide than females.
Age: Elderly Caucasian males have the highest suicide rates.


Sluggo_Monster

[quade 3]

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Does or has Perris done night jet jumps?

Just about anything can be done if you bring them a big enough bag of money, but they certainly aren't going to be giving away any free night jet jumps; that's just a silly idea and can be dismissed outright due to costs involved.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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to our moderator and to those engaged in the discussion:

i wonder if technically our moderator could put all the discussion that has taken place on dan cooper into one thread?

Unfortunately, thread merging is not technically possible.

FAR easier still would be for people to just use the search function.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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Quade, didn't you read my posts or my essay about my DB advertisement and how many students I got because of the buzz? I got hundreds of new students because of DB Cooper. My crazy DB ad stayed on the bulletin board at Ripcord for over four years because it helped all of us in the DZ business.

DB Cooper was good for us DZOs in 1971 and DB Cooper can only be good for DZOs in 2008.

To NOT create a "All About DB Cooper" subject forum within "Skydiving" here on DropZone.com is counter-productive for the entire community.

Then perhaps YOU should design a web site and discussion group specifically on the topic and reap the benefits!

Go for it. I won't stop you.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Q: The money -- if I had a Cooper $20 bill and spent it at Wal*Mart today (an example...) is it realistic to assume bells & sirens would go off?? My point of asking is to determine how likely it is that none of the $$ was ever spent.

Please see my probability example at post 613.

I performed the math only to show how a caculation would be done... I don't necessarily agree with the number.

The two numbers I would change would be the "teller" factor (adjusted down) and the places to spend a dollar (I doubt it's a billion even worldwide).

If you want me to calculate a more realistic number, I can do that. The actual number I came up with, however, might be pretty close to reality.

[snowmman 3]

warning: "magic-bullet-grassy-knoll" level whuffo.
but these issues repeatedly come up so need stated as speculation.

theory: someone buried/dispersed the money on the surface of the Columbia beach, sometime after the '71 event, with knowledge of Agent H.'s impending retirement, so discovery would trigger a closure scenario for FBI (drowning in Columbia or ???) that might deter a future agent from reinvestigating the case too closely.

possible fact [unconfirmed]: the bundle placement/alignment/sticking?? may be unlikely to be purely drift related .. and no bag/rope remnants were found that might maintain any such alignment. 100% rot/drift away of those items unlikely if they were there for alignment? dunno...

Supposedly bundles were removed to Ingrams kitchen? before FBI saw, so any alignment issues would be based solely on Ingram testimony?

fact: 2/12/80 article from N.Y. Times attached reporting Agent H. forced retirement (age) in 17 days. Discovery of money 2 days before (2/10/80)

related speculation: if human burial did occur triggered by impending retirement, the knowledge could have been transferred inadvertently, on purpose, or Agent H. could have been involved in burial.

related theories: it has been speculated there would be no reason for the money to be "buried-to-be-found" at that time, since there was no need to cover an alive Cooper's tracks. But the FBI case was still open. An open case is bad, future risk (look at the future risk DNA profiling created for people with open cases)
..So "attempt to close to prevent young tiger like Ckret" in the future is reasonable. If so, said attempt failed.

related theories:
-burial post '71 due to '74 dredge clay layer
-random drift after '74 dredge clay layer, from random '71 deposit.
-just random coincidence in timing
-rubber bands and their rot behavior
-dredging dispersal
-money bag drift/rot dispersal
-just plain random dispersal
-adhesion properties of wet dollar bills and relationship to known decomposition patterns of recovered bills.

[AggieDave 6]

A $20 of that age coming into circulation today would definitely raise some suspicion at just about every location its tried to be spent. This, for no other reason, that a large majority of those cashiers are making at or just above minimum wage. They don't want to take in a fake $20 and get stuck with paying the store back something that takes 3+ hours to earn, and now days one that is of a design that is older then the last 3 designs will definitely raise some concern and probably a manager.

I'm willing to bet that the bill would be taken as a possible counterfeit, given to a local PD or SO then during the investigation the Secret Service would look at it. THAT is when the alarm bells would go off due to the serial number. The person that tried to pass that bill would get a nice long talk from local investigators all the way up to SA CKret.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

At the worst, the store manager would pull out his counterfeit detecting pen and run it across the face of the bill.... and when no black mark appeared, he'd know it was real.

Then he'd look and say "wow, vintage bill"...

Who knows what happens then, but certainly no secret service.