22 22
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

(edited)
1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Or....

You could hook up with a good private investigator and hit the bricks and start trying to find out the facts for yourself. You make sure you have a camera, a voice recorder, and a notebook. It helps. 

Then...

After you (surprisingly) start catching people in lies, you find out what would motivate them to lie about certain things. 

And finally....

You sort out what is true from what is NOT true. You make errors along the way sometimes, but you don't let that deter you from finding out the core truths about this or that. At the end of it all, you release a report to the public and the FBI on what you discovered, write about fifty articles on certain points in case, write a book about it...

And then OTHER people and MORE information comes forward as a result. You could also do THAT. ¬¬

I didn't just drop off the apple cart last Tuesday, my friends. 

There are some good things about this scenario and some not so good. The good things I have discussed. You meet a lot of people, and sometimes you have a lot of fun. But you will also make a few enemies. You must live with that.

Anybody can cherry-pick. Here is the FULL quote of what I said. It is easy to sit there in anonymity as you do and say whatever you wish. No problem, but it takes much more character and substance to put your name behind what you say, or behind an investigation, as it were. 

Until you decide to do that, you will always be Amateur Night. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Anybody can cherry-pick. Here is the FULL quote of what I said. It is easy to sit there in anonymity as you do and say whatever you wish. No problem, but it takes much more character and substance to put your name behind what you say, or behind an investigation, as it were. 

Until you decide to do that, you will always be Amateur Night. 

Have you ever solved anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Have you ever solved anything?

Is that a loaded question? I could ask the same of you...but then I would have to ask for confirmation...and you would have to go public. So far, all I've seen from you after more than 2,000 posts is just that...internet postings. No presentations on your suspect, no hit-the-bricks work on him, and certainly no proof although you like to make judgment calls on others. 

I actually have more respect for people like Tom Kaye, his team, Bruce Smith, Marty Andrade, Mark Meltzer, ('377') and a host of other folks who aren't afraid to lay it on the line for the public...in a public manner. For all anyone knows, you could just be some really smart high school kid from Victoria or something. By going that route, it is hard to gain respect from people like me who approach their efforts in the Cooper case a lot differently than you. 

When questioned with the tough issues, you deflect those questions by going after others, instead of addressing those questions. You probably don't get many questions about the case from the public, since they have no way of reaching you. (These days I answer Cooper or KC-related emails from mostly nice people at the rate of six to a dozen a week.) 

If you are asking me if I solved the Cooper case, my answer is that NO ONE has done that yet. But I still yet may be right about KC, despite your blanket protestations about him. That remains to be seen. 

If you are asking if I solved anything else, sure I have. Nothing earth-shaking, but I am not easy to fool either. 

How I relate to the Cooper case these days isn't so much an ongoing investigation. I think unless something important pops up later, that my investigation has pretty much ended. What I do now is make efforts to keep Cooper alive (symbolically) and in the minds of the public. The 50th anniversary of the hijacking has come and gone, and without a little promotion from behind, people will eventually forget him. He is already becoming a footnote, a permanent mystery if you will. His name is now unfamiliar to many people under the age of 40, especially if they don't live in the Pacific Northwest. 

The more people like you, and some of the other Cooper regulars fail to support AB of Seattle's efforts to continue the Cooper tradition...the more I think we should just toss our event funding over to the UFO folks instead, and for good. For the most part, many of you are simply an ungrateful bunch. I'm even considering dumping the Cooper theme completely for our next event in July. If there isn't any support from Cooperland, why should I bother? On the other hand, there are six declared Cooper fans signed up this year, so maybe I will go with the double theme anyway...but it will certainly be the last time before we do UFO/Bigfoot/I Was Abducted by Aliens as our exclusive theme. 

I understand perfectly well that until recently, some people in Cooperland pulled out all the dirty tricks, all the stops, all the internet attacks...mainly because they were jealous over the sales of Into The Blast. For a couple of years it was really ugly. And you got even angrier when sales actually increased over the last two years and hit a record THIS year. You may not like it, but that is reality. We are in WHOLESALE guys...internet posts and hate have absolutely nothing with how many books we sell. Absolutely zip, because that is not how the wholesale book business works. It's business, not personal as that guy said The Godfather. ^_^ Get over it and move on. If Eric Ulis bails on you, then you will have no more public events on Cooper unless all of you organize them and pay for them on your own. 

Hell...maybe that's exactly what you SHOULD do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

 

23 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 

If you are asking me if I solved the Cooper case, my answer is that NO ONE has done that yet. But I still yet may be right about KC, despite your blanket protestations about him. That remains to be seen. 

If you are asking if I solved anything else, sure I have. Nothing earth-shaking, but I am not easy to fool either. 

 

The answer is NO, you haven't solved anything.

So who are you to criticize anybody.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually....

When you asked the 'have I solved anything' question I was just trying to be polite. I think my work on the Cooper case speaks for itself. The still-public report that has gone over 400,000 downloads to date...the 55 articles at Newsvine...the second best selling book on the Cooper case in history...kind of like that. 

I don't like to brag about it. But there it is. If you are asking for solves beyond that, I suppose the answer is yes. 

I don't mean to criticize you (too much) but if you want to be taken seriously you will have to become (wait for it now) a REAL person, not just a house nuisance who happens to carry a thing that raises up cars. 

That was a joke. It might take you a moment to get it. ¬¬

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Actually....

When you asked the 'have I solved anything' question I was just trying to be polite. I think my work on the Cooper case speaks for itself. The still-public report that has gone over 400,000 downloads to date...the 55 articles at Newsvine...the second best selling book on the Cooper case in history...kind of like that. 

I don't like to brag about it. But there it is. If you are asking for solves beyond that, I suppose the answer is yes. 

I don't mean to criticize you (too much) but if you want to be taken seriously you will have to become (wait for it now) a REAL person, not just a house nuisance who happens to carry a thing that raises up cars. 

That was a joke. It might take you a moment to get it. ¬¬

KC was not Cooper. He doesn't match the evidence or the profile.

That isn't an opinion, that is the evidence.

Make a list of the Cooper facts and profile,, go ahead and compare it to KC.

I have already posted more facts that match Hahneman than even exists for KC,,

I have a list and KC barely registers.

 

Downloads means nothing. You haven't solved anything. You can't even get the parachute issue straight.

You bragged about your superior credentials,

"You don't know everything Flyjack. I have done a couple of articles on the history and good-or-bad concepts of the death penalty in America. One of them got a half million views and was endorsed by a couple of anti-capital punishment groups. The Newsvine site no longer exists, but I later reproduced the article here: (Ten Good Reasons to Stop Executing People in the United States) So I am pretty familiar with the rules and how they have worked over the years. Probably...it seems...better than some law enforcement groups realized back in the 70s. A couple of the items in the article are dated only because the article originally appeared in 2009." 

 

You also said I was misinformed, the DOJ, US Attorney, Prosecutors and FBI were all wrong... they were correct.

but you were wrong about the statute and the SOL.. and you STILL won't admit it.

You just fail to accept the facts and there is just no productive discussion with people who can't accept reality.

You have no track record of any success, you get most things wrong because you have proven you are not good at processing complex information.

You also said this..

"You don't have shit for evidence. You never did. At least I was intelligent enough to release a public report with illustrations, a book, and several videos to back up my stuff. You have less than zero going."

Obviously, you don't know that, you just made it up.. It is an assumption you make because I won't post my research for you. It is completely false and a good example for how you think. You don't know what I have but make false claims anyway. This is not the behaviour of somebody seeking the truth.. it is the behaviour of somebody who is feeling threatened.

 

Blevins, I don't want to discuss this with you anymore,, it is a waste of time.. just noise. I proved you wrong and you still won't accept it. Clearly, you are immune to facts.

I am trying to write something up and it is extremely difficult and complex. I hate writing.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
Quote

 

'KC was not Cooper. He doesn't match the evidence or the profile.

That isn't an opinion, that is the evidence.'

 

That is the opinion ONLY of an unknown person. You. One of many opinions regarding KC. 

Here is another:

Quote

 

"Some in this (Seattle FBI) office believe he (Kenny Christiansen) is a good suspect. Others believe there are better suspects."

Special Agent Fred Gutt, Seattle FBI.

 

Question to Seattle FBI in 2013: Was Kenneth Christiansen eliminated as a suspect in the Cooper hijacking?

Answer from same source: No, he has not been eliminated as a suspect in the case. 

As you can see, there are different opinions by different people, and I value theirs more than yours...because THEIR opinions come with a source. These opinions and statements came to me PRIOR to our releasing the full version of our report on Kenny to them. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
20 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

That is the opinion ONLY of an unknown person. You. One of many opinions regarding KC. 

Here is another:

Question to Seattle FBI in 2013: Was Kenneth Christiansen eliminated as a suspect in the Cooper hijacking?

Answer from same source: No, he has not been eliminated as a suspect in the case. 

As you can see, there are different opinions by different people, and I value theirs more than yours...because THEIR opinions come with a source. These opinions and statements came to me PRIOR to our releasing the full version of our report on Kenny to them. 

Meaningless drivel.

I am looking at the facts, it is not an opinion.

Write up a list of for the Cooper profile, then compare KC..  virtually no match.

Do it.. if you think he matches, prove it. You won't because he doesn't. I was even shocked how poorly he matched.. as a Cooper suspect he is a joke.

Strip away the noise and list just the Cooper facts and profile, point form.

McCoy matches better and he wasn't Cooper.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

I may do that the minute you decide to present a single witness against Fred Hahneman, and answer those other questions about his viability as a suspect. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander. 

My stuff is already out there.

The articles.

The report.

The book.

What do YOU have? Oh, yeah. I forgot. You don't even have a name. B) Amateur Night all the way. Let us know when you decide to step up to the Big Leagues. 

These are people like Bruce Smith, Tom Kaye and his team, Geoffrey Gray, Martin Andrade Sr. and Jr, hell...even Eric Ulis. At least he tried to toss a couple of conventions. You? Nobody knows who you are. You have no history, yet put yourself up as The Expert on All Suspects in the Cooper Case. I'll bet you haven't done a single interview or presented one solid piece of evidence. 

When you decide to put on the Big Boy pants and step up to the plate for real...let us know. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I may do that the minute you decide to present a single witness against Fred Hahneman, and answer those other questions about his viability as a suspect. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander. 

My stuff is already out there.

The articles.

The report.

The book.

What do YOU have? Oh, yeah. I forgot. You don't even have a name. B) Amateur Night all the way. Let us know when you decide to step up to the Big Leagues. 

These are people like Bruce Smith, Tom Kaye and his team, Geoffrey Gray, Martin Andrade Sr. and Jr, hell...even Eric Ulis. At least he tried to toss a couple of conventions. You? Nobody knows who you are. You have no history, yet put yourself up as The Expert on All Suspects in the Cooper Case. I'll bet you haven't done a single interview or presented one solid piece of evidence. 

When you decide to put on the Big Boy pants and step up to the plate for real...let us know. 

Blevins, you are dodging.. 

Hahneman has nothing to with Kenneth Christiansen not matching the evidence. I don't have anything to do with KC not matching the evidence.

You are employing a straw-man tactic to deflect because you know KC doesn't match the evidence. Your personal attacks are childish and irrelevant.

This is simple, you write down the Cooper evidence/profile then compare it to KC..

 

I have already done this list and Hahneman is a near perfect match while KC is a disaster.

You won't do it because you know KC will fail miserably and be exposed as poor suspect.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Rataczak heard and felt an oscillation and commented... a bump is felt.

RATACZAK stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 p.m., they
heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented at the time that he could have departed, causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight altitude, speed or any other external force which would account for this sudden oscillation. They telephoned the company representative, PAUL  Soderlind in Minneapolis shortly there-after, and stated that the oscillation, which could have been the hijacker's departure, would have occurred between 8:05 p.m. and their call to Soderlind 5 or 10 minutes later, the exact time woud be recorded in the company log.

RATACZAK stated that they had not yet reached Portland proper but very definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Blevins, you are dodging.. 

Hahneman has nothing to with Kenneth Christiansen not matching the evidence. I don't have anything to do with KC not matching the evidence.

You are employing a straw-man tactic to deflect because you know KC doesn't match the evidence. Your personal attacks are childish and irrelevant.

This is simple, you write down the Cooper evidence/profile then compare it to KC..

 

I have already done this list and Hahneman is a near perfect match while KC is a disaster.

You won't do it because you know KC will fail miserably and be exposed as poor suspect.

 

I don't make conclusions or assumptions based on a list of possibly inaccurate information. It's like saying you believe aliens visited certain Bible characters because the Bible sort of says so. 

You want to find out who Cooper is, or at least COULD be...prepare to hit the bricks and do the hard work. The first time I approached Margie Geestman, she came to the back door with a 12-gauge shotgun. (*laughs*) Hell of a way to start an interview, and I didn't do seven of them for nothing. That meant seven trips, 250 miles each way and over two mountain passes each way. Some of the interviews I did in this case required even more driving. FBI profiles and differing witness descriptions notwithstanding, I was able to place both KC and his friend Bernie Geestman's whereabouts the week of the crime. I was able to establish that KC gave a $5,000 cash loan to Geestman's sister Dawn Androsko only five months after the hijacking, when KC had absolutely NO way at that time to do such a loan. Yet he did. And Geestman was the go-between for that loan. Meanwhile, Androsko ID's the tie clip as one belonging to Kenny. Geestman's niece testifies she saw Kenny creating the phony bomb just two weeks prior to the crime. Geestman himself tries lying to History Channel researchers, and when that didn't work with them, he drives 200 miles from Port Angeles to defend himself on the Decoded show....and then lies to the cast on-air when he arrives. The cast conclude that Kenny was probably Cooper, but say Geestman was not involved. But when the full report came out later on KC and Geestman...Scott Rolle, the former prosecutor, and Buddy Levy, the professor from Washington State University...changed their minds. (Christine McKinley still isn't sure on Geestman) 

I could go on. The report went over fifty pages for a reason. I was even able to establish a motive for the crime. 

But...even after all of that (and much more) I could not pin the hijacking on these two with an absolute certainty, and in the book I tell readers that. I do listen to opinions regarding these men's guilt, but mostly they come to me from people who have an actual identity, and I tend to respect those opinions more than one coming from someone without an identity...like you, for example. 

It is very possible after all these years that it will be impossible to name Cooper with an absolute certainty. I have accepted that. Maybe it's KC. Maybe it's Fred Hahneman. Maybe it's someone who has never been a suspect. I don't dismiss any of these possibilities. But if you want to pin the hijacking on Fred Hahneman, you are going to need much more than some assumptions from a list. Anytime you think this is easy, forget it, because it is not. You can't pin it on Hahneman simply by researching the internet and using a Magic List. You will have to find witnesses, establish whether or not Hahneman had an alibi for 11/24/71, and find out why...although the Feds had him on ice for a dozen years in the pen...why YOUR thoughts on him are so much different than their conclusions. Twelve years is a long time, and it must have occurred to the FBI when Hahneman hijacked that jet to Honduras...that he could be Cooper. 

I only have one main problem with Hahneman being Cooper, beyond the thing where they had him in custody for a dozen years. And that is the modus operandi used by both Cooper and Hahneman. They are SO much different. Cooper was generally polite and was careful before the hijacking to ensure he got to the airport without revealing his identity. (Hahneman was quickly identified after HIS hijacking.) Hahneman was a mean, angry SOB who brought a gun and wasn't afraid to use it, at one point shoving it into the belly of a passenger and telling him to sit back down. He put a noose over the pilot's neck when they had to transfer to another jet. It goes on. The crimes had similarities, but on some points they were very different. I don't count him out completely, but I don't think he looks good for the Cooper caper. On the other hand, maybe you will come up with some hard evidence and witness testimony on Hahneman in the future that will prove he was Cooper. 

As far as Christiansen and Geestman go...I leave the report out there on the internet as a public download, pay to keep the Blast book in the print database worldwide each year, and leave up the 50+ articles at WordPress up for one good reason.

That perhaps someday, someone will come forward with evidence definitively linking both KC and Geestman to the hijacking. Or eliminate them completely, although at this point I think that is unlikely. Opinions coming from people with an agenda are to be taken much less lightly than ones coming from people without an axe to grind. 

EDIT: If you want to stop making assumptions about me and my work, and face me in person...and perhaps make a presentation on Hahneman...maybe you should plan a three day trip to that party near Mt. Rainier this July. But don't wait too long to decide. Even as early as it is, (six months down the road) slots to attend are filling up on a steady basis. 80% of these people are UFO researchers or UFO fans. The remainder are Cooper fans. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I don't make conclusions or assumptions based on a list of possibly inaccurate information. It's like saying you believe aliens visited certain Bible characters because the Bible sort of says so. 

I could go on. The report went over fifty pages for a reason. I was even able to establish a motive for the crime. 

But...even after all of that (and much more) I could not pin the hijacking on these two with an absolute certainty, and in the book I tell readers that. I do listen to opinions regarding these men's guilt, but mostly they come to me from people who have an actual identity, and I tend to respect those opinions more than one coming from someone without an identity...like you, for example. 

It is very possible after all these years that it will be impossible to name Cooper with an absolute certainty. I have accepted that. Maybe it's KC. Maybe it's Fred Hahneman. Maybe it's someone who has never been a suspect. I don't dismiss any of these possibilities. But if you want to pin the hijacking on Fred Hahneman, you are going to need much more than some assumptions from a list. Anytime you think this is easy, forget it, because it is not. You can't pin it on Hahneman simply by researching the internet and using a Magic List. You will have to find witnesses, establish whether or not Hahneman had an alibi for 11/24/71, and find out why...although the Feds had him on ice for a dozen years in the pen...why YOUR thoughts on him are so much different than their conclusions. Twelve years is a long time, and it must have occurred to the FBI when Hahneman hijacked that jet to Honduras...that he could be Cooper. 

I only have one main problem with Hahneman being Cooper, beyond the thing where they had him in custody for a dozen years. And that is the modus operandi used by both Cooper and Hahneman. They are SO much different. Cooper was generally polite and was careful before the hijacking to ensure he got to the airport without revealing his identity. (Hahneman was quickly identified after HIS hijacking.) Hahneman was a mean, angry SOB who brought a gun and wasn't afraid to use it, at one point shoving it into the belly of a passenger and telling him to sit back down. He put a noose over the pilot's neck when they had to transfer to another jet. It goes on. The crimes had similarities, but on some points they were very different. I don't count him out completely, but I don't think he looks good for the Cooper caper. On the other hand, maybe you will come up with some hard evidence and witness testimony on Hahneman in the future that will prove he was Cooper. 

 

Exactly, if you reject the facts of the case then you can make anybody into Cooper..

I made a list of Cooper facts/profile and suggest you do as well so you can do an objective analysis.

You can't claim KC is Cooper without matching him to the evidence. 

You know I have already said I am not making the case for Hahneman here and now. You make a conclusion from assumptions garnered from a few media reports, they aren't in context are misleading and incomplete, I have much more accurate direct information. Often the media is used for propaganda.

Cooper was who he was no matter what I say or you say about any suspect. 

You keep trying to make me responsible for Hahneman, that is a straw-man, he was or wasn't Cooper irrespective of what I do or don't say.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if you can make your case by July, maybe you should either show up to the only event this year (prior to November anyway) that has to do with Cooper. Or you could just send a presentation on some form of media. A couple of folks who aren't actually going to be at Mt. Rainier in July are sending stuff for us to present FOR them either on DVD or flash drive. 

Standard format DVD and videos in MP4 or AVI format are no problem. Or you can do a slideshow, but if you use still shots only...make sure they in JPEG format. We had a guy who prepared a major presentation for the smart TV but he used all kinds of mixed media. We couldn't run it for him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well, if you can make your case by July, maybe you should either show up to the only event this year (prior to November anyway) that has to do with Cooper. Or you could just send a presentation on some form of media. A couple of folks who aren't actually going to be at Mt. Rainier in July are sending stuff for us to present FOR them either on DVD or flash drive. 

Standard format DVD and videos in MP4 or AVI format are no problem. Or you can do a slideshow, but if you use still shots only...make sure they in JPEG format. We had a guy who prepared a major presentation for the smart TV but he used all kinds of mixed media. We couldn't run it for him. 

I thought I should explain this event, and this situation a bit further just for the record. 

My gal and I (Susan, pictured below) are official organizers for SUFON, the Seattle UFO Network. 

And after we sponsored the last Cooper/UFO Campout north of Mt. Rainier last July, we decided to make it a habit and do it every year. 

It is our answer to the now-defunct Ariel Store parties once held at the Ariel Store and Tavern sponsored by Dona Elliot. Only difference is that it goes for three days instead of a single day.

We have no agenda, especially about pushing Kenny Christiansen as Cooper. We are modest about that. 

Our main agenda is that people have fun and present what THEY want to present, and support them doing this. I do not do a presentation on KC. We just cook the food and host the thing. 

This effort costs us about every penny we make each year from AB of Seattle. And then some.

We are more than happy to do that. One reason is because sitting at home in summer is pointless and boring. 

People are starting to realize this, and that we are sincere in this effort. 

We are not Eric Ulis, although in some ways we admire him for what he does, especially his conventions.

He does his thing, and we do ours. Both are good. 

Except for the one incident I have posted about Eric regarding the woman he chased, we still support him. He learned his lesson we think, and has moved beyond that. 

If you go to this page at AB of Seattle and the Contact Form is no longer there, this means we are at capacity and you missed out. 

In order to do this event, Susan and I will have to rent a U-Haul trailer for the gear to haul behind the Xterra, and get to the site days in advance with a few volunteers from SUFON and make sure you are ready to have fun. We already reserved the trailer. 

You can either support this effort, or forever hold your peace. 

We don't charge an entry fee. It simply is what it is. 

If you are interested, I would not wait too long to say so. 

RobAndSusan.jpg.921240284631467fb2aaee02112a7db5.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Rataczak heard and felt an oscillation and commented... a bump is felt.

RATACZAK stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 p.m., they
heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented at the time that he could have departed, causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight altitude, speed or any other external force which would account for this sudden oscillation. They telephoned the company representative, PAUL  Soderlind in Minneapolis shortly there-after, and stated that the oscillation, which could have been the hijacker's departure, would have occurred between 8:05 p.m. and their call to Soderlind 5 or 10 minutes later, the exact time woud be recorded in the company log.

RATACZAK stated that they had not yet reached Portland proper but very definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof.

A few things…

First, Rataczak later told Carr that it was 10 to 15 minutes after last contact. So, we have a pretty ambiguous range to start.

Second, the 302s state that the original drop zone and search area in the vicinity of Merwin Dam was based entirely on the pilot report of oscillations in conjunction with radar data. There is no mention of Paul Sonderlind’s notes or the company log ever being used by the FBI to develop the dropzone. In fact, Sonderlind is hardly mentioned in the 302s.

Third, Anderson was interviewed a few years ago and stated that the crew waited “for some time” to report the pressure bump - that it wasn’t immediate. How long they waited is uncertain. One minute? Three? Five?

Fourth, at no time in the transcripts or interviews does any of the crew indicate that they thought Cooper had left the plane. In fact, the crew tried to call him in the back at 10:38 and again at 10:46. When the plane landed, Scott searched the rear and obviously found nothing. There doesn’t appear to be any evidence that the crew knew or assumed he jumped in 8:09 to 8:12 time frame - or at any time for that matter. They didn’t even know what the bump meant exactly until January 1972  when they did the sled test. 

Fifth, the anecdote (which again, doesn’t appear in any 302s) about Rataczak declaring “I believe our friend has taken leave of us.” does not happen between 8:09 and 8:12. It did not occur until 11:13, according to the transcripts, when the crew radioed the tower in Reno and said, “…be advised that, uh, we apparently, uh, our passenger took leave of us somewhere between here and Seattle…”

Lastly, it is hard to imagine anyone describing Ariel, Battleground, or even Orchards as “the suburbs or immediate vicinity” of Portland - especially in 1971 when that area was much less populated and much more rural than it is now. Nevertheless, it’s possible they could see the city glow through the clouds, but I would hazard a guess that any accurate determination of exactly where they were would be nearly impossible given the visibility. 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

A few things…

First, Rataczak later told Carr that it was 10 to 15 minutes after last contact. So, we have a pretty ambiguous range to start.

Second, the 302s state that the original drop zone and search area in the vicinity of Merwin Dam was based entirely on the pilot report of oscillations in conjunction with radar data. There is no mention of Paul Sonderlind’s notes or the company log ever being used by the FBI to develop the dropzone. In fact, Sonderlind is hardly mentioned in the 302s.

Third, Anderson was interviewed a few years ago and stated that the crew waited “for some time” to report the pressure bump - that it wasn’t immediate. How long they waited is uncertain. One minute? Three? Five?

Fourth, at no time in the transcripts or interviews does any of the crew indicate that they thought Cooper had left the plane. In fact, the crew tried to call him in the back at 10:38 and again at 10:46. When the plane landed, Scott searched the rear and obviously found nothing. There doesn’t appear to be any evidence that the crew knew or assumed he jumped in 8:09 to 8:12 time frame - or at any time for that matter. They didn’t even know what the bump meant exactly until January 1972  when they did the sled test. 

Fifth, the anecdote (which again, doesn’t appear in any 302s) about Rataczak declaring “I believe our friend has taken leave of us.” does not happen between 8:09 and 8:12. It did not occur until 11:13, according to the transcripts, when the crew radioed the tower in Reno and said, “…be advised that, uh, we apparently, uh, our passenger took leave of us somewhere between here and Seattle…”

Lastly, it is hard to imagine anyone describing Ariel, Battleground, or even Orchards as “the suburbs or immediate vicinity” of Portland - especially in 1971 when that area was much less populated and much more rural than it is now. Nevertheless, it’s possible they could see the city glow through the clouds, but I would hazard a guess that any accurate determination of exactly where they were would be nearly impossible given the visibility. 


 

Ive wondered about that myself - suburbs of Portland. Strangely enough, nobody has bothered to ask Rataczak what 'surburbs' means to him. He's the one who made the statement, and of course he was speaking as a pilot from a pilot's perspective. Suburb is tantamount to periphery - ie not the center one is moving toward. My grandmother lived at Vancouver and she referred to Portland as the 'center' of the 'city'. I just find it strange R was never asked to explain. Maybe people understood what he said and meant!

 

 

Edited by georger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

A few things…

First, Rataczak later told Carr that it was 10 to 15 minutes after last contact. So, we have a pretty ambiguous range to start.

Second, the 302s state that the original drop zone and search area in the vicinity of Merwin Dam was based entirely on the pilot report of oscillations in conjunction with radar data. There is no mention of Paul Sonderlind’s notes or the company log ever being used by the FBI to develop the dropzone. In fact, Sonderlind is hardly mentioned in the 302s.

Third, Anderson was interviewed a few years ago and stated that the crew waited “for some time” to report the pressure bump - that it wasn’t immediate. How long they waited is uncertain. One minute? Three? Five?

Fourth, at no time in the transcripts or interviews does any of the crew indicate that they thought Cooper had left the plane. In fact, the crew tried to call him in the back at 10:38 and again at 10:46. When the plane landed, Scott searched the rear and obviously found nothing. There doesn’t appear to be any evidence that the crew knew or assumed he jumped in 8:09 to 8:12 time frame - or at any time for that matter. They didn’t even know what the bump meant exactly until January 1972  when they did the sled test. 

Fifth, the anecdote (which again, doesn’t appear in any 302s) about Rataczak declaring “I believe our friend has taken leave of us.” does not happen between 8:09 and 8:12. It did not occur until 11:13, according to the transcripts, when the crew radioed the tower in Reno and said, “…be advised that, uh, we apparently, uh, our passenger took leave of us somewhere between here and Seattle…”

Lastly, it is hard to imagine anyone describing Ariel, Battleground, or even Orchards as “the suburbs or immediate vicinity” of Portland - especially in 1971 when that area was much less populated and much more rural than it is now. Nevertheless, it’s possible they could see the city glow through the clouds, but I would hazard a guess that any accurate determination of exactly where they were would be nearly impossible given the visibility. 


 

I posted that to point out that the oscillation was felt,, aka pressure bump. Oscillations were seen on the gauge and both seen and felt as bumps.

First, Carr also stated and it is true that information closer to the event is the most accurate.

Second, Soderlind was involved according to Rataczak. He said he was a genius and figured out the LZ (NWA DVD). He was listening in and they pinpointed an area which was later confirmed with more data. There were slight revisions over time.

Third, which report, Rataczak said he got on the horn right away. Unfortunately, we don't have that comm.

Fourth, false, there are interviews with Rataczak who was flying the plane by hand that they could see the lights of Portland and Cooper was gone by then (Gryder). Rataczak He said.. the exact quote. "about 28 miles North of Portland he (Cooper) jumped out of the airplane" (NWA DVD). 

Fifth, It isn't an anecdote, in the NWA DVD he repeated it.. Rataczak said he got on the horn to air traffic control "our friend just took leave of us” “mark it” (That comm had to be logged and used in the DZ analysis)

Lastly,, The crew knew were Portland was and PDX/Battleground Vortac would have been a significant position marker for the crew, they would have known if Cooper jumped before or after the plane passed that point. Also, that was just before they made a slight turn. They all believed it was before. So, there is really no way Cooper jumps beyond Battleground. The most accurate timestamp for a bump is the 8:09 bob on the FDR, if we accept the 8:18 position that puts the plane right about Heisson and that is right about 8:12 on the flightpath map. The problem is all the different event times are not synchronized so there is a variablity.

Putting all the evidence together that we have, the highest probability jump zone is around Heisson and decreases toward Battleground but there is virtually no chance Cooper jumps beyond PDX/Battleground Vortac. 

If you want to claim the bump wasn't Cooper jumping that is another argument, but very weak.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I was able to place both KC and his friend Bernie Geestman's whereabouts the week of the crime. I was able to establish that KC gave a $5,000 cash loan to Geestman's sister Dawn Androsko only five months after the hijacking, when KC had absolutely NO way at that time to do such a loan. Yet he did. And Geestman was the go-between for that loan. Meanwhile, Androsko ID's the tie clip as one belonging to Kenny. Geestman's niece testifies she saw Kenny creating the phony bomb just two weeks prior to the crime.

These are all lies told to you by liars. Pretty simple. Also, we've all seen the photo of you and your new girl now. How many times do you need to post it? It has nothing to do with Cooper.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Paul Soderlind was Director of Flight Ops for NWA. We are talking genius-level pilot here. Some of the things he invented regarding passenger flight are still IN USE TODAY. He is a member of the Minnesota Aviation Hall of Fame. 

Soderlind and his team were major coordinators and developers of the flight path map that was later used for the search. 

If Soderlind says, "Cooper jumped here..." there is no one better to believe. 

Couple of pictures of him below, one of him being inducted into the MAHOF. 

Paul2.jpg.7a54bfdad95f6a9c81cfd2d5549e0c47.jpg

 

Soderlindpic.jpg.d017d716f86f23af6ae025103ff19b29.jpg

Chaucer says in part:

Quote

'Lastly, it is hard to imagine anyone describing Ariel, Battleground, or even Orchards as “the suburbs or immediate vicinity” of Portland - especially in 1971 when that area was much less populated and much more rural than it is now. Nevertheless, it’s possible they could see the city glow through the clouds, but I would hazard a guess that any accurate determination of exactly where they were would be nearly impossible given the visibility....'

Don't forget they were being tracked by fighter jets out of McChord AFB that had radar, plus the ATC and SAGE radars that were keeping track of the flight. Jet also had a transponder going. It wasn't that hard for Soderlind and his team (later) to figure out where the flight was at any given point. They were able to determine where Cooper jumped using the pressure bump information, but the margin of error was probably a minute or two. At most. This still leaves a search area at least six miles from N to S and accounting for chute drift, one mile in either a E or W direction. That is twelve square miles. Minimum. Doing a Search-and-Rescue in an area of a couple of square miles is tough enough. (I have been involved in a few of those) Twelve square miles is more than you think. No wonder Cooper was able to avoid the cops that night. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

22 22