DB Cooper

[Math of Insects 96]

21 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I stand by what I’ve done. But lies are lies. Thanks to the group member who notified me of this libelous comment. 

Right. That’s libel, but accusing an innocent man of terrorism and roping him into every Google search on Cooper forevermore is completely fine.

Yep, you’re the victim here. Do you have a gofundme? I’m sure once the news hears about this injustice the donations will start rolling in.

Also: you called WJS by his actual name. That poster simply said “a researcher.” The only way that’s libel against you is if you’re that researcher. Was your post an admission that it was you?

Edited April 12 by Math of Insects

[Cola 26]

Provocation Fridays  (on a Saturday)

You pull a card from life’s Chance pile and the card reads:

Congratulations ! the identity of Dan Cooper is...

(if only it were that easy!)

Anyway lets imagine you did pull such a card, elaborate a little or explain in detail what 3-5 potential things  come to mind that you see yourself doing within say the next day, weeks, months or years with this random revelation.

This is all for fun..

 

Edited April 13 by Cola

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

This is a link to a Go Fund Me account being set up for a re-scan of tie particles. Through Tom's goodwill and McCrone Labs' interest in the case, McCrone has agreed to do a re-scan of one of the tie stubs for only $500, which is essentially at cost for microscope time. We are setting up the account for up to $1,500 for the possibility (no guarantees) that McCrone might agree to re-scan an 2 additional stubs in the future at the same cost. A re-scan would provide x-y coordinates with a true "north south" orientation that would allow Tom to look at specific particles of interest more easily and definitively. Thank you for your consideration.

http://This is a link to a Go Fund Me account being set up for a re-scan of tie particles. Through Tom's goodwill and McCrone Labs' interest in the case, McCrone has agreed to do a re-scan of one of the tie stubs for only $500, which is essentially at cost for microscope time. We are setting up the account for up to $1,500 for the possibility (no guarantees) that McCrone might agree to re-scan an 2 additional stubs in the future at the same cost. A re-scan would provide x-y coordinates with a true "north south" orientation that would allow Tom to look at specific particles of interest more easily and definitively. Thank you for your consideration. https://gofund.me/7a65d011

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

This is a link to a Go Fund Me account being set up for a re-scan of tie particles. Through Tom's goodwill and McCrone Labs' interest in the case, McCrone has agreed to do a re-scan of one of the tie stubs for only $500, which is essentially at cost for microscope time. We are setting up the account for up to $1,500 for the possibility (no guarantees) that McCrone might agree to re-scan an 2 additional stubs in the future at the same cost. A re-scan would provide x-y coordinates with a true "north south" orientation that would allow Tom to look at specific particles of interest more easily and definitively. Thank you for your consideration.

update: McCrone has agreed to run a total of four stubs for us at $500 each. 

https://gofund.me/7a65d011

Edited April 15 by Nicholas Broughton

[Math of Insects 96]

Can you explain more about why these particular scans are important?

[olemisscub 466]

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:06 PM by olemisscub

[JAGdb 69]

21 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

 

Always enjoy Bruce, as well as these videos you are doing Ryan.

I just find the narrative that the CIA/Deep State had to orchestrate this DB Copper Hijacking for the sole purpose to get more air port security a little silly, i.e. metal detectors in air ports or requiring more information from passengers to fly.  

Why on earth would they need to do this ?  There were already so many hijackings, wouldn't those already be enough reason ?  The government enacts laws and strong arms private industry all the time without the need for covert operations as trigger point.

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Always enjoy Bruce, as well as these videos you are doing Ryan.

I just find the narrative that the CIA/Deep State had to orchestrate this DB Copper Hijacking for the sole purpose to get more air port security a little silly, i.e. metal detectors in air ports or requiring more information from passengers to fly.  

Why on earth would they need to do this ?  There were already so many hijackings, wouldn't those already be enough reason ?  The government enacts laws and strong arms private industry all the time without the need for covert operations as trigger point.

Yes, I really, really don't like that narrative for the hijacking. 

It's especially nonsensical because the government did NOT want to be paying for airline security. The government wanted it to be the responsibility of the individual airlines to pay for additional security measures. So, saying the deep state was involved is silly to me because they had no incentive. This was a clever bank robbery, that's all. 

That said, I think there is a very, very real possibility that Cooper was CIA adjacent at some point in his life, likely through Air America. He fits the mold very well of their middle aged renegade pilots who flew in Vietnam. As I said in the show, I came across a news article from 1972 where a guy said the average age of Air America pilots was 43 years old. These guys were mercenaries. They risked their lives for profit. So, Cooper would have been used to this sort of dangerous game. 

The fact that Air America dropped men and material out of 727's with 15 degree flaps and gear down is almost too coincidental to believe. 

[Cola 26]

Provocation Fridays

 

“It’s not because I have a grudge against your airlines, it’s just because I have a grudge.”

 

Has anyone here ever had a real grudge or a true brooding of wrath?

Have you ever been compelled into action because of a grudge?

Are grudges healthy?

Can grudges be productive?

When Dan Cooper said he had a grudge

do you think he was being facetious, flippant, or revealing something deeper of himself?

 

Here is a thought –Newtonian physics – one of the greatest achievements in human history is alleged to have been spurred by a grudge, a brooding of wrath!  

Yes, possibly there is more truth in this than Newton’s metaphor of an apple falling from the tree of knowledge and giving Newton his inspiration for gravity!  (Think of Newton’s symbology of gravity – the apple tree the apple. Was this symbology a heretical attack on Adam and Eve eating form the tree of knowledge, the church and Christianity or a clever combining of Science and Gravity  with elements of  Christianity -  as if gravity were Manna from Heaven falling from the tree of knowledge on Newton…? Who knows the truth but Newton?)

Anyway, the story loosely goes that Newton as a boy was kicked in the stomach by a school bully and that in this action Newton’s defense against this much larger individual was not to physically challenge him but to apply himself to mentally dominate this bully. Allegedly, the bully was the head pupil at Newton’s school, so Newton set about whipping this individual’s mind by applying himself to his studies and besting the bully,  unseating him from his position as valedictorian. It may have been something as simple as being kicked unjustly in the stomach that ultimately put Newton on an academic and intellectual path to create Newtonian Physics! Has this one kick to the stomach affected man?

Is it possible the reason we put a man on the moon in 1969, the reason we were able to put a man on the moon in 1969 was that a bully 340 years prior kicked Issac Newton in the stomach and the effect was a grudge and brooding which  may have ultimately lead to the develop Newtonian Physics...

 

Anyone aware of other historical grudges like Newtons?

 

(All comments welcome - This is all for fun)

[Math of Insects 96]

Anyone know where Newton was November 24, 1971? Did he smoke? Working with apples might explain some of those particles. 

[georger 197]

7 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Always enjoy Bruce, as well as these videos you are doing Ryan.

I just find the narrative that the CIA/Deep State had to orchestrate this DB Copper Hijacking for the sole purpose to get more air port security a little silly, i.e. metal detectors in air ports or requiring more information from passengers to fly.  

Why on earth would they need to do this ?  There were already so many hijackings, wouldn't those already be enough reason ?  The government enacts laws and strong arms private industry all the time without the need for covert operations as trigger point.

Gossip vs factual news ... the Moon could be cheese. Familiarity breeds contempt, or just sloppy reporting ? Geoffrey Gray now lives in Mexico and Galen is coming back - never left. Jo Weber was amazing and LD was an early suspect! 'Dorey' took over the case from Himmelsbach - Himms charged too much for his interviews and he lived in a palace (his wife had money). There is more ..... stay tuned! Galen is coming back . . . Jo Weber had connections nobody else had . . . there is probably plastic in your heart valves and arteries and brain .. . if you remote view Jo Weber's dreams backwards you will know everything about the DB Cooper case including all FBI 302s. Oh! And Galen is coming back . . .

Edited Friday at 08:29 PM by georger

[DanCooperHimself 9]

5 hours ago, Cola said:

Provocation Fridays

 

 

 

“It’s not because I have a grudge against your airlines, it’s just because I have a grudge.”

 

 

 

Has anyone here ever had a real grudge or a true brooding of wrath?

 

Have you ever been compelled into action because of a grudge?

 

Are grudges healthy?

 

Can grudges be productive?

 

 

When Dan Cooper said he had a grudge

do you think he was being facetious, flippant, or revealing something deeper of himself?

 

 

 

Here is a thought –Newtonian physics – one of the greatest achievements in human history is alleged to have been spurred by a grudge, a brooding of wrath!  

 

Yes, possibly there is more truth in this than Newton’s metaphor of an apple falling from the tree of knowledge and giving Newton his inspiration for gravity!  (Think of Newton’s symbology of gravity – the apple tree the apple. Was this symbology a heretical attack on Adam and Eve eating form the tree of knowledge, the church and Christianity or a clever combining of Science and Gravity  with elements of  Christianity -  as if gravity were Manna from Heaven falling from the tree of knowledge on Newton…? Who knows the truth but Newton?)

 

Anyway, the story loosely goes that Newton as a boy was kicked in the stomach by a school bully and that in this action Newton’s defense against this much larger individual was not to physically challenge him but to apply himself to mentally dominate this bully. Allegedly, the bully was the head pupil at Newton’s school, so Newton set about whipping this individual’s mind by applying himself to his studies and besting the bully,  unseating him from his position as valedictorian. It may have been something as simple as being kicked unjustly in the stomach that ultimately put Newton on an academic and intellectual path to create Newtonian Physics! Has this one kick to the stomach affected man?

 

Is it possible the reason we put a man on the moon in 1969, the reason we were able to put a man on the moon in 1969 was that a bully 340 years prior kicked Issac Newton in the stomach and the effect was a grudge and brooding which  may have ultimately lead to the develop Newtonian Physics...

 

 

Anyone aware of other historical grudges like Newtons?

 

 

 

(All comments welcome - This is all for fun)

 

I know Dan Cooper’s “grudge” - he had $200,000 less than he desired. The whole lay-offs thing, the “grudge” is too deeply read. It was a financially motivated crime. 
 

Darren had a lady on his podcast saying that he did it to show it could be done. If so, why not ask for a Mickey Mantle Baseball Card and four parachutes. Or a Monet and four parachutes. Both easier to transport. The guy was a greedy MF who wanted money. 
 

I like the whole CIA/Interpen Goon angle. I really do, but it’s what makes a better story and fiction can be more enjoyable than the fact that a lone middle aged man wanted money, got it, and was so unremarkable that he had nobody to tell or wasn’t missed if he slammed into the ground or took a swim. 

[georger 197]

4 hours ago, DanCooperHimself said:

I know Dan Cooper’s “grudge” - he had $200,000 less than he desired. The whole lay-offs thing, the “grudge” is too deeply read. It was a financially motivated crime. 
 

Darren had a lady on his podcast saying that he did it to show it could be done. If so, why not ask for a Mickey Mantle Baseball Card and four parachutes. Or a Monet and four parachutes. Both easier to transport. The guy was a greedy MF who wanted money. 
 

I like the whole CIA/Interpen Goon angle. I really do, but it’s what makes a better story and fiction can be more enjoyable than the fact that a lone middle aged man wanted money, got it, and was so unremarkable that he had nobody to tell or wasn’t missed if he slammed into the ground or took a swim. 

And Galen is coming back.

[JAGdb 69]

19 hours ago, olemisscub said:

That said, I think there is a very, very real possibility that Cooper was CIA adjacent at some point in his life, likely through Air America. He fits the mold very well of their middle aged renegade pilots who flew in Vietnam. As I said in the show, I came across a news article from 1972 where a guy said the average age of Air America pilots was 43 years old. These guys were mercenaries. They risked their lives for profit. So, Cooper would have been used to this sort of dangerous game. 

The fact that Air America dropped men and material out of 727's with 15 degree flaps and gear down is almost too coincidental to believe. 

I like this profile you describe as well, the smart goon so to speak.   It allows for someone who had experience and operational knowledge, which can explain why Cooper was generally calm and poised, and executed what appears to have been a relatively well thought out plan.  But  since he wasn't necessarily a classically trained spook, it also allows for someone who was capable of making a mistake, which he may have made while on the ground at Seatac. 

If I am not mistaken, Dr. Edwards last DB Cooper related good reads post indicated that he is also trying to drill into the identity of the people involved in Civil/Southern Air Transport and  Air America programs.    

[Cola 26]

20 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

Anyone know where Newton was November 24, 1971? Did he smoke? Working with apples might explain some of those particles. 

 

Your such the comedian, care to share any Cooper jokes?  Here I'll give you a lead in. 

What did the skyjacker say to the stewardess

 

 

[Cola 26]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:17 PM, DanCooperHimself said:

I know Dan Cooper’s “grudge” - he had $200,000 less than he desired. The whole lay-offs thing, the “grudge” is too deeply read. It was a financially motivated crime. 
 

This is all for fun 

However, I'll not accept that Cooper isn't more complex than just having a desire for money.

There is a psychology as to why -  he at middle age -  is then choosing to do the job.

I believe there are threads here to tug at in thinking on aspects of other's with grudges, and how grudges evolve. Newton wanted to best a bully. Do grudges exist either as inaction or action? With inaction do you brood and turn inward on your own thoughts emotionally self- harming yourself. Or do you reach a point of middle age and standup for yourself, enough is enough, lash out, satisfy your grudge. Are there other shades of a grudge? How long do grudges last?    What other historical figures held grudges and bested their bullies or pivoted in life having developed a grudge?

 

Darren had a lady on his podcast saying that he did it to show it could be done. If so, why not ask for a Mickey Mantle Baseball Card and four parachutes. Or a Monet and four parachutes. Both easier to transport. The guy was a greedy MF who wanted money. 
 

I do agree with her - he did it in great measure to show it could be done - it is self-actualizing of his own potential - something like this may have been his greatest pride in life exceeding every other aspect, you could not purchase what this man may have acquired psychologically after this Job.

The Job's value for Cooper could very well have been a restoring of self confidence in a broken man. If this were a besting of some long held grudge a self-actualizing act  then you could think of the success of this act as a resurrection of this individual, a rebirth. 

I enjoy all of Darren's podcast but that one in particular, to my ear, to my senses, there was something about it, an intuition, it felt a bit "icky" at points. 

 

I like the whole CIA/Interpen Goon angle. I really do, but it’s what makes a better story and fiction can be more enjoyable than the fact that a lone middle aged man wanted money, got it, and was so unremarkable that he had nobody to tell or wasn’t missed if he slammed into the ground or took a swim. 

If Cooper were criminally cultured and not some hack then he'd know to keep his mouth shut ,  or maybe he did take a swim.

 

 

[Cola 26]

17 hours ago, JAGdb said:

making a mistake, which he may have made while on the ground at Seatac. 

Yes he had the mistake of leaving the stairs truck in place, he should have pulled the truck once Tina completed her last run. Then hooked it back up for the departure of Flo and Alice.

This was something Cooper could have been able to pickup from Cini but missed. Cini collected his ransom by lowering a rope from the aircraft and hauling it the 20 feet. Cini was more cautious in this regard not using a stairs truck initially.    

Thats Cooper's on the ground mistake IMO.

Edited Sunday at 04:50 AM by Cola

[JAGdb 69]

18 hours ago, Cola said:

Yes he had the mistake of leaving the stairs truck in place, he should have pulled the truck once Tina completed her last run. Then hooked it back up for the departure of Flo and Alice.

This was something Cooper could have been able to pickup from Cini but missed. Cini collected his ransom by lowering a rope from the aircraft and hauling it the 20 feet. Cini was more cautious in this regard not using a stairs truck initially.    

Thats Cooper's on the ground mistake IMO.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that i.e. by leaving the air stairs in place, you left an entry point open for a possible law enforcement attack.   

What I was thinking of is related to the sequence of Tina retrieving the money and chutes.  While I am not sure if this is agree upon as cannon, it has been discussed that Copper failed to keep human collateral when he allowed Tina to go get the back packs.  The passengers and other stewardesses were already gone I believe. So he was alone by himself, which is a careless and fatal game over mistake.  It's almost as bad a mistake as Cini putting the axe down for the pilots to pick it up and beat the snot out him.  In theory, Tina and the pilots could have simply bugged out and left him on the plane for the police to take him down one way or another.   

Again, I am not sure if this has been 100% validated or not.  

[Cola 26]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

 

 

The other girls were captives while Tina went to and fro getting the chutes and food. The plane landed at 5:39 and Flo and Alice did not depart till about 6:44ish. The plane took off an hour after that at 7:36.

I'm sure Cooper was assured numerous times that there would be no action taken and that Nypro himself had approved the payment of the ransom and there be no intervention.

 

Cini put down his sawed off shot gun...he was brought the axe to cut the tightly cinched twine on a package that was holding his parachute. Cini was holding the axe with one hand and shot gun with the other but he could not manage cutting the twine  with both hands full so he then standing in the isle, placed the gun in the middle seat. Captain Ehman seeing this realized his moment, lunged past Cini, grabbed the shot gun and hurled it over the isles as far as he could.

Then Cini's fantasy came crashing down as Ehman went to town.

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

 

The other girls were captives while Tina went to and fro getting the chutes and food. The plane landed at 5:39 and Flo and Alice did not depart till about 6:44ish. The plane took off an hour after that at 7:36.

I'm sure Cooper was assured numerous times that there would be no action taken and that Nypro himself had approved the payment of the ransom and there be no intervention.

 

Cini put down his sawed off shot gun...he was brought the axe to cut the tightly cinched twine on a package that was holding his parachute. Cini was holding the axe with one hand and shot gun with the other but he could not manage cutting the twine  with both hands full so he then standing in the isle, placed the gun in the middle seat. Captain Ehman seeing this realized his moment, lunged past Cini, grabbed the shot gun and hurled it over the isles as far as he could.

Then Cini's fantasy came crashing down as Ehman went to town.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Nyrop  

Nyrop, not Nypro.

[Chaucer 102]

14 hours ago, Cola said:

 

The other girls were captives while Tina went to and fro getting the chutes and food. The plane landed at 5:39 and Flo and Alice did not depart till about 6:44ish. The plane took off an hour after that at 7:36.

I'm sure Cooper was assured numerous times that there would be no action taken and that Nypro himself had approved the payment of the ransom and there be no intervention.

 

Cini put down his sawed off shot gun...he was brought the axe to cut the tightly cinched twine on a package that was holding his parachute. Cini was holding the axe with one hand and shot gun with the other but he could not manage cutting the twine  with both hands full so he then standing in the isle, placed the gun in the middle seat. Captain Ehman seeing this realized his moment, lunged past Cini, grabbed the shot gun and hurled it over the isles as far as he could.

Then Cini's fantasy came crashing down as Ehman went to town.

 

 

The jetliner landed at 5:41.

Tina retrieves the money and parachutes between 5:50 and 6:10.

All passengers are off the aircraft by 5:57

Alice and Flo depart the aircraft at 6:44. 

The plane departed at 7:36. 

Based on this timeline, the pilots and Alice and Flo could have escaped the cockpit while Tina was on and off the aircraft getting the money and chutes during the time period of 5:57 and ~6:10. In fact, I think in a later interview, Rataczak laments this fact. 

https://norjak.org/timeline/

Edited 23 hours ago by Chaucer

[Cola 26]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Based on this timeline, the pilots and Alice and Flo could have escaped the cockpit while Tina was on and off the aircraft getting the money and chutes during the time period of 5:57 and ~6:10. In fact, I think in a later interview, Rataczak laments this fact. 

I don't think they could have made a run for it, honestly it took till 6:24 to confirm the passengers were loaded on a bus. During that time the crew was freaking out over the passengers just milling about the airplane, the fuel truck and active runways.

Further, Coops initial instructions were for the crew to remain seated. According to Tina’s 2^nd interview Coops reiterated this to her when she went to get the parachutes.

When Tina returned to the jetliner she noted placing the parachute in the seat next to Cooper this suggest to me that he was seated and possibly he was watching the door with his hand still inside the case while she went to a fro.

I have spent the time with the records but don’t care to lay out and post every movement of the stews beyond what has been put down by Sluggo. For me I don't think there is any further warmth that could be brought to the case "today" in covering and recreating at an intuition, assertion, and reference level where the girls were or weren't and what the opportunities of escape could have been.

 

 

[JAGdb 69]

19 hours ago, Cola said:

I don't think they could have made a run for it, honestly it took till 6:24 to confirm the passengers were loaded on a bus. During that time the crew was freaking out over the passengers just milling about the airplane, the fuel truck and active runways.

Further, Coops initial instructions were for the crew to remain seated. According to Tina’s 2^nd interview Coops reiterated this to her when she went to get the parachutes.

 

When Tina returned to the jetliner she noted placing the parachute in the seat next to Cooper this suggest to me that he was seated and possibly he was watching the door with his hand still inside the case while she went to a fro.

I have spent the time with the records but don’t care to lay out and post every movement of the stews beyond what has been put down by Sluggo. For me I don't think there is any further warmth that could be brought to the case "today" in covering and recreating at an intuition, assertion, and reference level where the girls were or weren't and what the opportunities of escape could have been.

 

 

 

All good on this, it's a good discussion.  It's hard putting it all back together 50+ years later.  It just comes down to whether or not he made an amateur type of mistake.    If so, that could be used as part of the profile when looking at a particular suspect.  

Anyway, here is the latest from Dr. Edwards....he's on the hunt for those Air America jumpers:

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/24695578-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-last-name-unknown