22 22
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

Some woman I don't know keeps asking me about the HA HA HA book, i.e. where can copies be obtained...answer...nowhere. 

And about purchasing items from the Ariel Store. She has dropped N. Brougton's name. I told her to post her questions here instead. All I know about what happened in Ariel after Bryan Woodruff passed away is that one of his sisters came down from Alaska. Place was sold, along with most of the important memorabilia. I haven't been back there since I dropped 2500 bucks trying to help Bryan...and then two days after I finished doing all that for him...the ungrateful guy started bad mouthing me at Facebook. So frankly, I just don't care. Karma can be a real bitch. 

Bryan told me the night before the last Cooper party that members of his family were pressuring him to let them sell off the Cooper memorabilia. They were telling him that with Dona Eliott gone, and being the place could no longer be open for business...and the fact that Bryan got everything, the stuff, the property, the building...that this was not fair to the rest of them. 

Don't shoot the messenger. That's what he told me the night before the Cooper party in 2016. 

My guess is that the family took what they wanted after Bryan died, or maybe even before...when he was in hospice...and then sold the rest before selling the property. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

It's an expression...

Why wasn't I honest with you? If you had asked me privately, I would have told you my policy with you three. Since you asked publicly, I was trying to spare your feelings and save you embarrassment. 

You do not have the ability to embarrass me or hurt my feelings.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

You do not have the ability to embarrass me or hurt my feelings.

And you do not have the ability to make me care about that one way or another. B)

It's no big deal, Parrot. It is very simple. Some people in Cooperland we simply don't trust. And we judge people by the company they keep. For example, I see that Bruce Smith is whining about the accessibility and rankings of his new book at Amazon on his latest at Mountain News. So he asks people to click on the link to the book, and to his Author Page there to force Amazon to list it better. 

Some of you guys doing these Cooper books should listen to me once in a while. Unless you are Stephen King, or backed by a major publisher, you will never do high, steady numbers of sales using Amazon alone. Neither do shill reviews by your friends work with buyers, even if you say 'full disclosure'. LOL that just tells buyers 'for sure' your friends are creating those glowing reviews....and you admit it. That is supremely NOT SMART. There are watchdogs at Amazon who keep track of authors who get shill reviews posted, and Amazon...especially lately because Chinese companies keep offering rewards and free or discounted products in exchange for good reviews...starts putting you to the back of the feed trough. If you know Bruce, and you want to review his book positively, for God's sake don't say you know the author. Amazon absolutely hates shill reviews, and they are cracking down on this practice. Generally, they won't remove the shill reviews or ban your book or any of that. But they might start stacking the algorithms against you. 

It also doesn't help if readers start searching you out as an author, and they come to things like this.

I warned Bruce months ago that if he kept allowing scores of nasty comments about others on his own blog, it was going to affect his reputation and probably hurt his book sales. This kind of junk has absolutely no effect on sales at AB of Seattle, guys. We are a WHOLESALE TRADE PUBLISHER. I keep telling people this, but they don't listen. 

(These are the people you hang out with, Parrot. The people you support. Which is why anyone associated with them....WE don't trust.) Can you imagine what would happen if I didn't screen comments at YouTube? You and your friends would go into a feeding frenzy just like they do over at Mountain News. But now it is starting to affect Bruce and his efforts to market his new book. No matter what his latest article Cooper-related happens to be...the Peanut Gallery comes out of the woodwork and ruins everything for him. And when people email us and ask about Bruce, we don't say bad things about him. We just link them to a few of the idiotic comments he allows. 

But to be fair, I hope his new publisher is offering up his book at the wholesale trade rate through Ingram. I haven't been able to locate the paperback version at Amazon yet, so I can't say. (I deleted a portion of this post because I mistook the $9.99 Kindle version for the paperback. As far as I can tell, the publisher hasn't listed it at Amazon yet. But we hope it will not be for 25 bucks because that means no wholesale distribution.) If it is offered up at substantially less than 25, and other wholesalers and book jobbers compete for sales, ('also available from THESE sellers') then he will have nothing to worry about.

Because if they use Ingram, and offer up at the trade rate, 98-99 percent of his sales won't be at Amazon. ('Trade rate' means the publisher offers the book at 30-55% off the price on the cover.) Most sales will then come from book jobbers, retailers, and wholesalers worldwide. And occasionally they will order your book by the case. 'Case' sales are determined by how many copies of a certain size book can fit inside a certain size box. For Into The Blast, that is 52 copies because it isn't that large a book. I will guess Bruce's case size around 20-22 copies, because his book is larger. I think once the book gets rolling, and is released wholesale at this trade rate, then he will do just fine. 

On another subject, I also see complaining about a picture I recently posted of a group of Cooper books. Over at the Peanut Gallery, they called this picture unfair because Bruce's book isn't included. These ding-dongs didn't realize the picture is of the pool table at the Ariel Store, and that was Bryan Woodruff's full collection of Cooper books. He set it all up, I had nothing to do with it. Maybe...just maybe...he didn't like Bruce.

He did ban him from the last Ariel party that was ever done, after all. ^.^ Picture below:

CooperBookCollectionUSA.thumb.jpg.e1d9dc542e4aa9d3568c986f7bed8278.jpg

Late Edit, Different Subject:

I said THIS earlier...

Quote

'Bryan told me the night before the last Cooper party that members of his family were pressuring him to let them sell off the Cooper memorabilia. They were telling him that with Dona Eliott gone, and being the place could no longer be open for business...and the fact that Bryan got everything, the stuff, the property, the building...that this was not fair to the rest of them. 

Don't shoot the messenger. That's what he told me the night before the Cooper party in 2016. 

My guess is that the family took what they wanted after Bryan died, or maybe even before...when he was in hospice...and then sold the rest before selling the property...'

Slight correction. Word I have from locals is that not all the Cooper memorabilia was sold by Bryan's family prior to the sale of the property. And that some they actually took possession of. The property was sold relatively quickly after Bryan passed away. His sister from Alaska came down and had to take care of all that business. That is what I heard anyway. Don't take it as absolute gospel, but I got that from a couple of the locals down there whom I know through Facebook. And there wasn't THAT much true memorabilia. You had the neon sign, the parachute, a few other items. But much of the Cooper-related decor was simply news articles and pictures posted on the walls. And the books, of course. But there wasn't a whole lot else. I got a full and complete tour of the place from attic to basement, in the two days prior to the last party that was held there in August 2016, and Bryan led the way on that. I would say the famous neon sign and the signed parachute hung from the ceiling were the two most valuable items.  

Edited by RobertMBlevins
Corrected a few items

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you know Parrots name on YouTube and why did you censor other questions asked by people you didn't know? if you suspected "us" you would of mentioned it. 

You are shutting people out for no reason. you were banned on multiple Cooper sites due behavior. legit questions have been asked by multiple people (you didn't know) that were censored by you. that's called, what's that word, oh yeah, slanted!

Save us from embarrassment? that's another lie. you jump at opportunities like that. 

I noticed you spoke of shills in the comments above, more of that "do as I say, and not as I do" you were caught years back shilling on Amazon. even the excuse you tried to give was a lie. you lie about a lot of things while "giving it straight" 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blah, blah, frickin blah, as Jason Statham once said. 

I don't support shills. I dumped an author's story from THIS BOOK and paid the fees for book adjustments after he did his own glowing review of the book at Amazon and wouldn't take it down. I had to change the back cover and alter the page count.

He was warned. He didn't believe I would do it. I won't put up with it. And I don't like people who support copyright violations either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it didn't take long to get to the bottom of the details on the Ha Ha Ha book. 

  • Rod Addicks is indeed the author. 
  • Judi Van Cleave was the editor and she is in possession of a great number of copies, plus has releases for the artwork, etc should another version be published. She, for some reason, says she holds the rights. She did verify that Addicks was the author. 
  • Greg Ellingson of Portland did the artwork for the book. 
  • There is another person or organization out there supposedly bidding for the rights to the book and to purchase the remaining copies of the original. Supposedly there are a few thousand available. This is from Van Cleave today. She told us this morning she would like to see both offers side-by-side and compare them. 
  • It is an interesting piece of work, but for the record I have made the choice to withdraw my interest in re-publishing this book, or purchasing any further copies. Greg the Techie Guy and Susan are of the same opinion. 
  • The reason for this is because of the background of the original author. He is a convicted murderer. 
  • I have informed Van Cleave of our decision.  
Edited by RobertMBlevins
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

B)

There are some things even WE won't do for money...basically we (Greg, Susan, and I) took a look at this whole picture and said, 'No way.' Van Cleave seems to be a good Christian woman with a fairly large family but we're not getting into the middle of this one. If there is another interested party out there wanting to republish and buy all those copies, we decided to let them do that. 

Another reason we withdrew from the whole thing is that we don't need controversy, any more than we have at any given time. In seven months, AB of Seattle is expected to toss one hell of a party north of Mt. Rainier and planning/expenditures are already rolling for that. We have one other book ready for release, our first in a few years, (final chapter has been done, just cleaning up the editing and doing the cover now)...and taking on a shaky project right now like Ha Ha Ha does not sound like a good idea for us. 

For those of you out there reading this who want a copy of Ha Ha Ha, I think there will be some available fairly soon. I told Van Cleave about the lady north of Seattle who put up about 70 copies of the book for 30 bucks each and they were all sold at Amazon. So...I suggested to her if she gets an offer in the 10-12 dollar range per copy, for a bulk sale, she might want to take it. Or...she could open a seller's account at Amazon herself and sell them that way. But...that comes with certain problems as well. Lots of shipping, dealing with customers, etc. A bulk sale offer might be better, I said. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I did locate Bruce's new book at Amazon today. 

The situation is worse than I thought. He went with a small press named Mooncove or something. THEY want a whopping thirty bucks a copy in paperback. There is no wholesale distribution showing, not yet. If you start seeing much lower prices for the book within the next two weeks at Amazon...then the book IS in the normal distribution chain.

I tried to discuss with Bruce, both privately and here at DZ, the foolishness of releasing paperbacks at prices far and above normal, and without being in the normal distribution chain. I don't know...maybe he's satisfied with the occasional retail-only sale. I like our system better. 

Into The Blast, for example, goes like this:

Print cost: (What Ingram receives per sale) - $3.00. This is also our cost, should we choose to buy copies for promotional purposes. More than 51 copies it's cheaper. 

Wholesale rate: What wholesalers, retailers, Amazon jobbers, bookstores, etc can purchase copies for: $6.00. This is a 50% trade rate off the cover price, which is $12.00 retail. Our profit is $3.00 for each copy sold. (I decided to login to LSI/Ingram today and actually LOOK at our spread numbers. Truth is I never kept track of the spread numbers much, just total sales and total revenue.) 

Because the book is in the normal distribution channels at the trade rate, it is listed by thousands of book dealers and wholesalers worldwide. If your book is NOT in normal channels at some kind of discount rate...none of these people will list your book unless they either raise the already inflated price, or jack up the shipping on customers to make a profit. Few of these people...the wholesalers, businesses and organizations you need to move sales on a book...will go near a full retail book without a trade rate. Especially one priced far and above other books of a similar size and type. Why should they? There is no profit in it for them...and you NEED them. Another consideration is that when your book is in that distribution chain at trade rate, case sales will happen for you occasionally. A case sale is where a distributor or retailer buys a certain number of your books at a discount. The discount is on the printer side, not yours. YOU make the same amount on every single sale...no matter how much the jobber, wholesaler, retailer, or bookstore decides to set the price. They are free to set that price between what they paid for it, (50% off cover price) and the retail price. The author or publisher is always second on the food chain list. 

I have seen a couple of Cooper book authors noting they don't sell too many copies, and wonder why that is. THAT is why that is. I swear we should do a Zoom on all this someday so I can show you how to make money on a book. You might not get rich, but it will be steady money. There is an old saying in the book business:

Quote

"It isn't how much you make on each book sale that counts most. It's how many books you can put into the hands of readers..." 

I may buy a copy of Bruce's book, sure. But paying thirty bucks for a six-by-nine paperback is ridiculous at best. Plus shipping, unless Amazon does the shipping. And in some places, there is also sales tax. Already at Amazon, I see that a couple of book jobbers have listed Bruce's book for sale...at seven to nine dollars above the already sky-high retail. 

Sometimes I have wanted to ask Bruce if he simply doesn't like money....

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 49 is particularly interesting. NWA and the FBI agree that it was a 'virtual certainty' that Cooper jumped at 810 PM. 

I tend to agree with that assessment. 

chutedemomap2.jpg.1ff783d0f53c068e04bceb435bad9ad9.jpg

By the way, if any of you who have NOT been to DB Cooper Country ever decide to visit, expect to see signs like this: 

tMZe7Jo.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Page 49 is particularly interesting. NWA and the FBI agree that it was a 'virtual certainty' that Cooper jumped at 810 PM. 

I tend to agree with that assessment. 

chutedemomap2.jpg.1ff783d0f53c068e04bceb435bad9ad9.jpg

By the way, if any of you who have NOT been to DB Cooper Country ever decide to visit, expect to see signs like this: 

tMZe7Jo.jpg

The "Money Found Here" arrow is about an inch to far North on that map.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the 'I Call It Like I See It Department': 

My recent email to Bruce. 

Quote

 

"Bruce,

I know you won't answer this, but why in the holy hell would you sign over your book to a press that doesn't even put books into the mainstream chain at the normal trade discount? Do you hate us all so badly that it never crossed your mind to ask us for advice? No...I wouldn't have offered to publish. But I would have tried to help and advise you. Damn it, Bruce. No one over here hates you. But that was a bonehead move to go through those guys. You probably know it by now. If not, you will when royalty time comes. I figure you saw my post at Dropzone about all this. Frankly, I am very disappointed with you. First you allow scores of hateful comments on your blog about others. Then you sink your own ship by going with a publisher who couldn't sell ice to James Stewart in Flight of the Phoenix, not if they aren't releasing books into the mainstream channel at the trade rate. Do you realize that more than ten years after we first released Blast that it is moving between 50-300 copies a month? That is for ten years running now. YOU should be doing the same thing. But YOU figured you knew what you were doing. I cannot express my disappointment in you right now. You probably do have the best book on the case overall, but you sold off the rights for what...the next two...three, maybe five years? To a publisher who isn't even hooked into Ingram? And even if they are, without offering your book at a trade rate, tens of thousands of jobbers, wholesalers, retailers, bookstores, book dealers, etc will not list your book. Or if they do, they will jack up the shipping or the price even more. And a six/nine paperback for thirty bucks is laughable. Expect fewer sales than the last version. I am not gloating here. I actually want you to succeed. The better you do, and some of your friends, the better we do. It's always been like that. I can't help you now, though. I just wish I could have spoken to you prior to signing a book contract. You should have just moved your books to Ingram, set your wholesale rate, and sat back and collected the monthly royalties. Geez, Louise. By the way...Meyer Louie is coming to the July event, and the people commenting trash on your website are liars for the most part. You are rapidly becoming the main host for ALL hate on the internet regarding the Cooper case. If I were a butthead I would screenshot that stuff and send it to your publisher. But I won't. You figure out ways to sink your own ship with no assistance from me. 
Regretfully, Robert..."

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Harrison papers..

These notes look to be from 3 different people. 3 entries different handwriting.

harrisonnotes.jpeg.79badbe8669b19b10f531f0a5f1bf8e1.jpeg

 

The 0418 (8:18) is the outlier.. the FBI files timeline has 2222 (8:22)

82223dme.jpeg.06594a09e40f84ee2bd337a78d640c38.jpeg 

The last section with the 0418 (8:18) also refers to per Harrison. That suggests he did not write it.

perharrison.jpeg.d28f9b124ac5cd6707720f6ef3c053b5.jpeg

 

So who are all the writers...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The Harrison papers..

These notes look to be from 3 different people. 3 entries different handwriting.

harrisonnotes.jpeg.79badbe8669b19b10f531f0a5f1bf8e1.jpeg

 

The 0418 (8:18) is the outlier.. the FBI files timeline has 2222 (8:22)

82223dme.jpeg.06594a09e40f84ee2bd337a78d640c38.jpeg 

The last section with the 0418 (8:18) also refers to per Harrison. That suggests he did not write it.

perharrison.jpeg.d28f9b124ac5cd6707720f6ef3c053b5.jpeg

 

So who are all the writers...

 

The writer of the 17 page "FBI Notes" plainly states that he is preparing them after the fact and he would probably be using the ARINC teletype printout that was transmitted at 8:22 PM for such information.  The 8:18 PM time is valid.

Also, the "Per Harrison" looks like it was written by a different hand than the rest of that quote.  Note also the additional writing in the lower right hand corner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

The writer of the 17 page "FBI Notes" plainly states that he is preparing them after the fact and he would probably be using the ARINC teletype printout that was transmitted at 8:22 PM for such information.  The 8:18 PM time is valid.

Also, the "Per Harrison" looks like it was written by a different hand than the rest of that quote.  Note also the additional writing in the lower right hand corner.

The Harrison notes are three different writers.. 

Two have 8:22 and one 8:18,, how do you know which is valid and who wrote what when.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know why 8:18 is more accurate than 8:22 or vice versa.. but I know the pilots claimed they hadn't reached Portland.. they would know if they had passed the VOR or were over the airport.

All the timestamps had built in errors.. on the high side.. We have 8:09 - 8:13. 

But I always thought the 8:09 mark on the FDR was the most accurate timestamp. Real time recording.

8:09 always seemed to be too early based on other evidence..

If the 8:18 (23 DME) is precise then 8:09 puts the jump near Heisson.

The 8:18 time combined with all the evidence does not put the jump over the Columbia but supports the 8:09 FDR time at Heisson.

(I still don't know if 8:18 is accurate)

pathtimes3.jpg.88a547a8bdbeb0bf15a4eb7af831a56f.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..and the argument that the pressure bump was not an oscillation is nonsense.

Oscillations are a visual representation of pressure fluctuations,, the needle fluctuated on the gauge. 

When the needle fluctuation reached a max, the oscillation was physically felt aka pressure bump.

The difference between the two is not that they are separate events but in how a fluctuation is sensed.. physical vs visual.

The question was whether the oscillations were caused by Cooper going down the stairs or jumping. The sled test showed that there was no significant change when a person went down the stairs. The sled being dropped matched the "pressure bump" felt on NORJAK.. a violent increase in oscillations ending with a bump. This is not minutes apart, but seconds.

 

Rataczak..

The pressure gauge is used for the crew to regulate the rate of climb or descent in the cabin to make it more comfortable. They were unpressurized and when that gauge goes to the extreme a light goes on and you feel a significant bump in your ears like a car door window opening at 70 mph on the highway. He said on the radio "I think our friend just took leave of us.... mark it on your radar screen" 

 

Get it,, a fluctuation is seen as an oscillation on the gauge, an extreme fluctuation is felt as a pressure bump..

 

Edited by FLYJACK
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

..and the argument that the pressure bump was not an oscillation is nonsense.

Oscillations are a visual representation of pressure fluctuations,, the needle fluctuated on the gauge. 

When the needle fluctuation reached a max, the oscillation was physically felt aka pressure bump.

The difference between the two is not that they are separate events but in how a fluctuation is sensed.. physical vs visual.

The question was whether the oscillations were caused by Cooper going down the stairs or jumping. The sled test showed that there was no significant change when a person went down the stairs. The sled being dropped matched the "pressure bump" felt on NORJAK.. a violent increase in oscillations ending with a bump. This is not minutes apart, but seconds.

 

Rataczak..

The pressure gauge is used for the crew to regulate the rate of climb or descent in the cabin to make it more comfortable. They were unpressurized and when that gauge goes to the extreme a light goes on and you feel a significant bump in your ears like a car door window opening at 70 mph on the highway. He said on the radio "I think our friend just took leave of us.... mark it on your radar screen" 

 

Get it,, a fluctuation is seen as an oscillation on the gauge, an extreme fluctuation is felt as a pressure bump..

 

Or, an oscillation of the stairs  ... is seen as an fluctuation on the gauge.

here we go again and around and around we go and where it ends nobody knows ... 

Or, 'I remember we were closing on Vancouver/Portland when the pulse event happened.  ... When the pulse happened we all felt it and Bill looked back and said out loud:  "I wonder if our friend has left us?"  But we weren’t sure.  

Or, "oscillation of cabin rate of climb indicator." 

Or,  "Oscillation of the cabin climb rate guage seems reasonable.  It is conceivable that the oscillation could be just an indication that the airstair

moving up and down was directly causing pressure cycles.  It is more likely that the pressure cycles resulted from the plane bobbing up and

down a bit ("porpoising") as a result of the airstair functioning as an elevator as it moved up and down in the airstream.  It could have been that

the hijacker was doing something like jumping up and down on the airstair to test its "feel" or to try to get the stair locked down."

Or,  "These were minor oscillations. We detected on the guages only.  We just presumed pretty quickly that it was Cooper fiddling with the aft stairs but we weren’t one hundred percent sure because we were already flying dirty, with throttles up and fighting icing and weather.  A lot going on and it wasn’t totally smooth even before the oscillations started. What we noticed was the pattern of the oscillations was continuing and there was a very minor disruption of the slipstream. Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought  there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody. "

Or, .. .

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or, they figured out later, on the ground, when working with people in person instead of just on the radio...that the stairs rebounded almost to the closed position when Cooper jumped..and this was pretty much noticed by everyone on board. 

I think it's a lot less complicated than people think. It always has been. 

Stuff is happening because Cooper is playing with the stair release controls. 

When he finally gets the stairs to drop, there are some changes in the gauge. 

When he finally jumps, these changes end in one BIG ONE that everyone notices. 

Rataczak makes his call about Cooper having departed the jet. And he was right. 

This happened no earlier than 810 PM and no later than 812 PM. That is a flying distance (at the speed the jet was actually going) of about nine miles. (X3 minutes, x3 miles per minute)

Assuming a drift of around one mile in either direction, this leaves a search area on the ground of approximately 18 square miles. If you can narrow it down to maybe 810-811, which I believe is more likely than going all the way to 812, then you have a search area of 12 square miles. 

By the time the size of the search area is communicated effectively to LEO on the ground, Cooper could have been several miles away. No wonder they never caught him. As long as he avoided the main roads, the cops never had a chance of finding him, not in the dark. 

Since it is likely that the only lights he could have possibly seen from the stairs right before he jumped were the lights from Vancouver and Portland, it is ALSO likely he decided to head in that direction. It is much easier to blend in and escape when you can reach a major urban area. Plus, there are pay phones there. He probably followed the RR tracks right into the east side of Vancouver.

But before he did, he may have kicked in a lock at a little general store and helped himself to some cigarettes, a pair of gloves, and some beef jerky... B) Or maybe cartoonist Gary Larson was right all along. 

CooperEnd.jpg.3c502b50d3732e84aa9ad366d9f763fd.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

22 22