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DB Cooper

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I have read the FBI files. A great deal of them anyway. 

People who are vested in keeping the Cooper mystery alive, whether they are working on a suspect or running a website that's only purpose is to discuss the Cooper case...

Their opinions are worthless. Because their opinions are bound to be slanted. It's human nature. 

And some of these same people like to go anonymous away from the Cooper internet places where they usually hang out...and go after other people involved in the case...on a personal basis. 

They also believe that nothing they do, even when it's wrong, IS wrong. 

Sorry, but when folks do that sort of thing their opinions are not only biased, but they are not to be trusted. My program has worked just fine so far. The public events are modestly successful, the books continue to sell each month, and I have fun answering questions sent to me (mostly by email) from the public. 

Unless something new comes up, the investigation into KC and company is closed. However, I still don't mind discussing the case. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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7 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I have read the FBI files. A great deal of them anyway. 

People who are vested in keeping the Cooper mystery alive, whether they are working on a suspect or running a website that's only purpose is to discuss the Cooper case...

Their opinions are worthless. Because their opinions are bound to be slanted. It's human nature. 

And some of these same people like to go anonymous away from the Cooper internet places where they usually hang out...and go after other people involved in the case...on a personal basis. 

They also believe that nothing they do, even when it's wrong, IS wrong. 

Sorry, but when folks do that sort of thing their opinions are not only biased, but they are not to be trusted. My program has worked just fine so far. The public events are modestly successful, the books continue to sell each month, and I have fun answering questions sent to me (mostly by email) from the public. 

Unless something new comes up, the investigation into KC and company is closed. However, I still don't mind discussing the case. 

You haven't read all the files, you didn't even know that they investigated KC in 2004. (after you solved the case)

We are beyond opinions, the case evidence rejects KC.. it is your opinions that rejects the evidence.

The KC case and dealing with your logic and spin reminds me of this..

 

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'You haven't read all the files, you didn't even know that they investigated KC in 2004. (after you solved the case)

We are beyond opinions, the case evidence rejects KC.. it is your opinions that rejects the evidence...'

 

There ISN'T enough evidence to convict anyone, and neither is there enough evidence to say that Ken Christiansen and Bernie Geestman were not the perps here. In 2004...it was almost five years later before I even HEARD of Christiansen. I didn't contact Porteous until early 2009. 

Yes....Lyle Christiansen made some approaches to the FBI around 2004 regarding his brother. No...he did not have any evidence at that time other than he thought Kenny looked like the sketch you hold so dear, (he does look like Cooper, see below) and a series of letters written to Lyle and the family by Kenny expressing his unhappiness with Northwest Airlines. And...that he (Kenny) was flat broke as well. The FBI checked out Lyle's story and found it lacking. I would have done the same thing. Not enough. 

CooperChristiansenpicbestCC.jpg.20f583257b9be8d93b620fb06be97615.jpg

In 2008, Seattle FBI agent Larry Carr dismissed Kenny as the hijacker based on the article he was provided from the New York Magazine. The one written by Geoff Gray. However, this did not stop Gray from investigating Kenny further and writing his book. It didn't stop Porteous either. 

Fast forward to 2012:  (After the book came out and the Decoded show was in reruns) When I asked the Seattle FBI directly if they had dismissed KC as the hijacker, Agent Fred Gutt told me this:

Quote

"He has not been dismissed. Some in this (Seattle) office think he's a good suspect. Others think there are better suspects..."

That is a quote. And it was followed by a phone call from him to my office in Auburn saying the same thing. So obviously there was some interest within the Seattle FBI regarding Christiansen.  

Our report is out there publicly. I stopped counting the downloads of the PDF years ago after they surpassed 100,000 total. The full unedited report is in the possession of the FBI, both the Seattle office and the main office in DC. Special Agent John Jarvis has indicated to three witnesses, all with security clearances and working for the US government in civilian jobs...that the reason the case was closed two months prior to his statements was because the FBI knew Kenny was Cooper and that Kenny was dead. 

JJarvis.jpg.b03509ba02112ba9b6c216d87f22698e.jpg

Then there is all the evidence in our files, which is substantial. 

Then...I have people vested in the case with their own suspects, with their own Cooper-related websites, and with personal issues going with me who say 'Kenny isn't the guy'.

You'll excuse me if I wait for confirmation from a more official source. One not quite so slanted and without axes to grind. B)

I never said Hahneman wasn't the guy. I said you hadn't yet produced a shred of evidence linking him directly to the Cooper case. There is a difference. But the very fact that you are working on Hahneman puts you into a difficult position when giving your opinions on Christiansen. It's like we are both writing a book about a mission to Mars, and we each tell the other that the other's story isn't accurate. No one listens to that. In fact, my opinions on Hahneman could be seen the same way. But the difference between us is that I DO have a book out there people can see...that I DID submit a report on a suspect both to the FBI and for the public...and you have not. (Yet) 

I did as I was asked by Skipp Porteous. I helped him with the investigation. I assisted on the book. I did the TV appearances, both on Decoded and Adrenaline Hunter. I organized a massive set of evidentiary files and sent them along to the FBI, and made a public report of it all, well...PUBLIC. I did my job. The rest is history. What the heck do you want from me? To say I don't think KC and Geestman might be guilty? To agree with your blanket assessment when you are so heavily vested in ANOTHER suspect? Forgettaboutit. Not happening. 

My main aim these days with the case is to help keep it in the public eye. After the 50th anniversary comes and goes next week, it will be a year before anything else happens except perhaps some TV shows. But in order to keep the case in the minds of the public, and to convince the FBI to come clean on some of these issues, it is necessary to keep the public interested. And besides, I get a lot of questions from the public on Cooper and the book sales continue, and have continued for ten years running now. I am not just 'going away,' even though some people in Cooperland would like nothing better. They want a closed group. I believe in openness. And frankly, I owe the people who keep buying the book, attending the events from the Cooper Campouts to the Skywatch Parties, and email me politely with their questions from all over the world. I OWE them. 

It's kind of like the UFO thing lately. When enough people are in discussion and keeping the subject alive...then sometimes results from the government might be forthcoming. This is what I tell people when we hold our Cooper events. You guys in Cooperland believe that when 70-90 people show up for a Cooper convention that this is big success, and you will solve the case someday by doing that. And you do a website that doesn't even allow anyone except registered members to see the links to your evidence or your event. With mainly the same 12-20 people making a majority of the posts. That is nuts. The UFO folks do SCORES of events EVERY YEAR, just in Washington and Oregon. Their pages at Facebook and THEIR websites gets tons of posts and traffic. You guys are small potatoes and need all the help you can get. You rejoice over every TV show on Cooper (which are mostly crap, at least the last few) while the UFO and paranormal people, even the Sasquatch fans...have entire TV SERIES dedicated to them. You are sucking hind tit big time. I have tried to help you but got rebuffed enough times to realize it was better to go out on my own. Eric Ulis is your Pied Piper of Hamelin and your interaction with the public is lacking. You attack others and think your shit doesn't stink. You steal books from others and make excuses. And even when people like me try to help you, or organize events with real celebrities and real attendance...you work against me. You aren't worth my time until you get your heads screwed on straight, and then remove them from your behinds when you are finished doing that. :handok:

The next event on Cooper after November 20-21 will be held north of Mt. Rainier in July 2022. I expect a full crowd this time. A three day weekend of plain fun, out in the high country and the fresh air. Out of 75 official slots, more than half are now filled. If more than that show up or use the contact form to get the maps and the info necessary, then we do overflow nearby so as not to violate Forest Service rules. Chatting it up, eating BBQ, and discussing UFO's, alien abductions, Sasquatch, and yes...DB Cooper. And I haven't even done the press releases or the big push with the media yet. That comes next spring. Whether anyone in the central group of Cooperland investigators care to participate, well...that's up to them. They can sign up if they wish, but we won't miss them if they don't. 

Welcome to the Reality Hotel. Top floor, penthouse suite. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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6 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

There ISN'T enough evidence to convict anyone, and neither is there enough evidence to say that Ken Christiansen and Bernie Geestman were not the perps here. In 2004...it was almost five years later before I even HEARD of Christiansen. I didn't contact Porteous until early 2009. 

That isn't the point..  you claim that there isn't enough evidence to eliminate KC but you haven't even read it all and you just reject what is known.

The evidence does eliminate KC. He doesn't match the overwhelming evidence of Latin features/characteristics etc. description. You just make up an excuse, he had a tan. He resembles sketch A like tens of thousands of guys but does not match sketch B.. which was the most accurate one... you claim sketches are unreliable. KC was also bald.. he wore a wig.. His profile doesn't match either. 

So, KC doesn't match the description or the profile at all.

And there is no evidence to support KC as Cooper.

What you have done is just rejected the case evidence that doesn't match KC and made up your own so that leaves virtually no suspect evidence.. now with virtually no evidence a hundred thousand guys can be made to fit as a suspect.

Then you top it with cherry picked indirect opinions 40+ years after the event.

If you reject the evidence, you could randomly pick guys about the right age, make a case and get better suspects.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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A burp sack is a throw up bag.

If Cooper checked the cards and those two cards belong to the two back chutes supplied to Cooper, chute 226 is a 1957 and 60-9707 is a 1960.. The newer 60-9707 chute is missing, he may have chosen it just because it was newer.

My view on the dummy chute is Cooper tossed it, he didn't use it..

If he had opened it to carry something there would have been a part left behind. Where did the canopy go. It doesn't make sense that he would toss just the canopy.

The harness didn't have D rings. Very hard to attach a chest pack. Can be done but not convenient.

The dummy chute was not sealed and did not have a packing card, the other three did. Reports are that Cooper checked the chutes and removed the backchute cards. 

Since the dummy was not sealed and had no card Cooper probably tossed it being suspicious of FBI tampering or a possible beeper. If he knew chutes he would have known it was a bogus chute.

Cooper most likely tossed it and didn't use it.

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My concern is wondering why he would only throw out one of the two chutes not used why just the front chute and not the other two?

Actually, would be three chutes not used.he didn't need two back chutes and really couldn't use either front chute to work properly, no D rings..what made him toss one front chute?

 

Edited by mrshutter45

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

My concern is wondering why he would only throw out one of the two chutes not used why just the front chute and not the other two?

Actually, would be three chutes not used.he didn't need two back chutes and really couldn't use either front chute to work properly, no D rings..what made him toss one front chute?

 

The only thing I can think off that makes sense for him to toss it (whole) is that the dummy was the only one not sealed and did not have a packing card...

It was potentially tampered with.. 

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper had thin lips and protruding lower...

Whatever.

I think we should move on from this subject, which is a waste of time for everyone involved. We have what we have on KC and company, and your opinion is noted. 

As far as the chutes go, everyone has a theory on what, where, and why etc. Here is mine:

  • The chute Cooper selected was a military rig and was chosen most likely because he recognized it as such and had used similar ones before. Also...Tina Mucklow has testified that Cooper seemed to know exactly what he was doing with the Navy rig. This is in contrast to the first Cooper Con, where '377' presented an identical rig and invited people to try putting it on and most people had trouble figuring it out. 
     
  • Since neither the briefcase or the dummy chute were left on board, they were certainly tossed from the aircraft by Cooper prior to jumping. One reason why might be to throw off any ground search, should those items be found later. But they were not found. I believe the reason is because the jet was still north of Lake Merwin when Cooper tossed them. This would put the place where these items landed in Weyerhauser Logging property, which is very extensive in that area and all roads are gated. People do go in there, hunters (on foot with permission), loggers, scientists, etc but a lot less than say...National Forest areas in WA. It would be easy for something tossed into the forests owned by Weyerhauser to never be found. The only thing this means is that Cooper probably tossed them out not long after the airstairs first dropped. 
     
  • The famous 'Pink Parachute' (held in evidence by the FBI today) had its lines cut of course. That is known. Cords were used to secure both the money bag itself and to tie the money bag to Cooper's waist. Mucklow stated that Cooper was seen tying this cord around his waist. After Cooper jumped, the scene was probably a lot like the picture below:
     

kennyjumppicgeest.jpg.8d132da52e541495f8f0d93b985f2fa4.jpg

  • Lastly, you have the fourth...and UNOPENED chute. This would be the so-called sport model belonging to Norman Hayden. It is shown below sitting today at the Washington State History Museum in Tacoma. 
    cooperchutetacoma.jpg.727c122abb3dd8cccf1f0253e82ca40e.jpg

"All parachutes present or accounted for...sir!" ^_^

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The only thing I can think off that makes sense for him to toss it (whole) is that the dummy was the only one not sealed and did not have a packing card...

It was potentially tampered with.. 

You have to wonder, sort of like the placard. when you look at the document from 2001 chute find they describe a front chute with white lines and a white canopy with "Norm D" inscribed on the container as part of the evidence or chutes used in the hijacking. we are obviously missing documents. this wouldn't be a mistake in typing something about the chutes. when that document was typed, they got the information from somewhere. Norm D is nowhere close to "Johnson" and nowhere close in color to the chute opened and cut by Cooper and yet it's a front chute that is suppose to be missing. news reports first said 3 chutes were on the plane. I don't know....was the dummy chute really there, only a few would know for sure...

Edited by mrshutter45

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1 minute ago, mrshutter45 said:

You have to wonder, sort of like the placard. when you look at the document from 2001 chute find they describe a front chute with white lines and a white canopy with "Norm D" inscribed on the container as part of the evidence or chutes used in the hijacking. we are obviously missing documents. this wouldn't be a mistake in typing something about the chutes. when that document was typed, they got the information from somewhere. Norm D is nowhere close to "Johnson" and nowhere close in color to the chute opened and cut by Cooper and yet it's a front chute that is suppose to be missing. news reports first said 3 chutes were on the plane. I don't know....

The Dummy chute being an error doesn't make sense to me.. 

Emerick said he grabbed it. Cossey said somebody grabbed it by mistake. He knew who grabbed it.

dummychute.jpeg.9892c8aaef199c86d52cafcd4bf6952b.jpeg

 

Very unlikely for Emerick to grab a dummy chute by mistake. It might have been intentional.

 

Cossey made the chute so maybe he knew it had "NORM D" on it..

cosseymadedummychute.jpeg.46547af466b55faa45a84027cb731197.jpeg.9d10451e2d7745f66073a51dffefe26c.jpeg

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True, but it's funny how they explain a novice wouldn't notice the difference and yet a veteran didn't catch it either when he picked it up..a cardboard box is a cardboard box when you pick it up. if something is in it, you know pretty fast. if the chute was lighter and oddly packed it should of been caught by a veteran. this has bothered me for some time now. either it never really made it on the plane or they all new it made it on the plane and made it appear to be a mistake..just a hunch..

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4 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

True, but it's funny how they explain a novice wouldn't notice the difference and yet a veteran didn't catch it either when he picked it up..a cardboard box is a cardboard box when you pick it up. if something is in it, you know pretty fast. if the chute was lighter and oddly packed it should of been caught by a veteran. this has bothered me for some time now. either it never really made it on the plane or they all new it made it on the plane and made it appear to be a mistake..just a hunch..

Rataczak said he thought the FBI sent the dummy chute on purpose... only his opinion of course.

I often wondered if they could have put a beeper in it because it was not sealed. 

There was that report of a faint beeper signal.. who knows.

 

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15 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I think it was too late with the beepers. I don't think they were aware of them at the time from what I recall the 302 stated..

The FBI files quote somebody claiming...

"To the best of his knowledge they did not have bleepers."

he was referring to the backpacks..

 

They did have beepers in Hahneman's and McCoy's chutes.. 5-6 months later

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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26 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly,

I'm prepping for Cooper Con, and this question relates specifically to survivability and not suspect discussions, what level of parachuting experience did Hahneman have?

He was on an aircrew in WW2, also in Korea and Vietnam but I can't get those records. Claimed to be paratrooper in Vietnam but I have never been able to confirm it.. He was a radio guy.

He ordered six chutes, front chest chutes and backpacks (like Cooper) from Andrews AFB.

He was identified by somebody in Honduras for the $25k reward, FBI won't confirm but it is believed to have been a relative, a cousin. He felt the heat and feared for his life once he was identified, friends and family convinced him to turn himself in. He volunteered to be taken back to the US. Since, he also had Honduran citizenship he didn't have to and there was no extradition at that time. He could have stayed. The money was hidden in Honduras but finally recovered a year later via a prison informant.

 

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

He was on an aircrew in WW2, also in Korea and Vietnam but I can't get those records. Claimed to be paratrooper in Vietnam but I have never been able to confirm it.. He was a radio guy.

He ordered six chutes, front chest chutes and backpacks (like Cooper) from Andrews AFB.

He was identified by somebody in Honduras for the $25k reward, FBI won't confirm but it is believed to have been a relative, a cousin. He felt the heat and feared for his life once he was identified, friends and family convinced him to turn himself in. He volunteered to be taken back to the US. Since, he also had Honduran citizenship he didn't have to and there was no extradition at that time. He could have stayed. The money was hidden in Honduras but finally recovered a year later via a prison informant.

So you are saying Hahneman was in the military for over 20 years? He would have to be, in order to be involved in all three wars you mentioned. 

As far as being a paratrooper in Vietnam, that is nearly impossible. He hadn't received the training in WW2 for paratrooper. The New York Times says he was a radar technician. And they don't start training paratroopers at age 40+. Not generally. 

How do you know the money was recovered via a prison informant? The FBI, according to my notes, refused to say how they got back the money. It was only in the last few years that Wikileaks released the cable saying the money had been recovered. The cable says nothing about how or where it was recovered. 

It is extremely doubtful that Hahneman was a member of a flight crew doing missions. During WW2, the vast majority of enlisted personnel who were trained in radar systems operation and maintenance for the Army Air Corps (later, Air Force) were ground crew. Airborne radar WAS used by the Air Corps during the war, but it was limited for a number of reasons. Most radar systems used by the Army Air Corps in WW2 were ground-based. And anyone who was actually a member of an air crew, and if they WERE responsible for airborne radar would have been an officer. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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11 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

he didn't need two back chutes and really couldn't use either front chute to work properly, no D rings.

 

This being the case, I've never understood the argument that Cooper was a novice because he opened up the only good front chute he had. If he couldn't use either, then he really didn't have a good one at all. Right?

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On 11/14/2021 at 4:04 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

None of you are really in a position to judge one way or another because ALL of you have an axe to grind in the Cooper case. All of you are heavily vested in it. Forums, suspects, whatever. This makes your point of view slanted at best. 

Not me. I'm not vested at all. I want the case to be solved and I don't care who the perp is, I just want to know.

I've never thought Kenny resembled either of the sketches at all.

The words "Kenny Christiansen" never came out of John Jarvis' mouth. This comes from your own article.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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11 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

My concern is wondering why he would only throw out one of the two chutes not used why just the front chute and not the other two?

Actually, would be three chutes not used.he didn't need two back chutes and really couldn't use either front chute to work properly, no D rings..what made him toss one front chute?

Since you posed a legit question, I may have the answer for you. 

It is possible that Cooper planned to pull the ripcord while standing at the very end of the stairs. 377 and I have both noted this. Cooper doesn't know exactly who packed these chutes or who provided them, or even if they work. Maybe he figures that since he already popped the one reserve for its paracord...if chute number one doesn't work at the end of the stairs, he can go back up and switch out for the one sitting today at the WA State History Museum. 

Or maybe he just figured the dummy reserve, the paper bag, and the briefcase were all he felt compelled to be rid of. Two of three of those items are evidence against him. The dummy chute is not, of course. 

I think he tossed out the dummy reserve, the paper bag, and the briefcase with the bomb simply to be rid of them. Plus...if someone finds them on the ground later, the FBI will think he jumped in that area instead of further south like he did. He HAD to toss them out first. He couldn't toss them out after he was gone, so wherever they are today must be miles NORTH of where he actually jumped and landed. I still think they are on Weyerhauser land because if they were far enough south to be beyond the Merwin Dam, someone would probably have discovered them by now. 

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2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Not me. I'm not vested at all. I want the case to be solved and I don't care who the perp is, I just want to know.

I've never thought Kenny resembled either of the sketches at all.

The words "Kenny Christiansen" never came out of John Jarvis' mouth. This comes from your own article.

You are right. Jarvis never said Kenny's name directly. But Troy Bentz DID ask him if he meant Kenny Christiansen, and Agent Jarvis nodded. 

I don't know what to tell you about the resemblance to the sketch. Just about everyone who has seen the sketch side by side with Kenny's picture disagrees with you. Even the people who don't believe Kenny was Cooper. 

You are not vested because...

1) You aren't working the case against a specific suspect. 2) You do not run a website solely dedicated to Cooper that would lose interest if Cooper's identity were discovered. 3) You haven't written a book about the case as many others have. 4) You are telling it straight when you say you really WOULD like to know who Cooper was. 

This is most of the general public as well, especially fans of the case. Here in the Great Northwest, Cooper was once as big as Bigfoot, but lately not so much. Bigfoot has overtaken Cooper by leaps and bounds. If you ask people here under the age of 40 about DB Cooper, they mostly give you a blank look and say, "Who?" But almost everyone is still aware of Bigfoot. 

There are scores of group events, Zoom gatherings, outdoor 'search for Bigfoot' events, and a couple of really big festivals on Bigfoot. Every year. Cooper is down to a measly two events a year and Cooperland only supports ONE. That is kind of pathetic. If you guys were smart, you would support BOTH those events with every fiber of your being before you are down to nothing. The Ariel Store party is long gone. I had to switch OUR yearly event to a combo party and include the UFO/alien abduction/ and Sasquatch folks. That's because the number of folks who are willing to pony up strictly for Cooper alone has dwindled ever since the Ariel Store closed its doors. Celebrations on Cooper are down to a gathering that charges you twenty bucks a seat, and one other that is held outdoors for free...but people have to pack up, buy food, and drive to reach it. Six of one, a half-dozen of the other. 

I don't think either one is any better than the other. They are completely different and neither of them is 'bad'. They are just the last ones left going. 

Quote

"Old soldiers (hijackers) never die. They just fade away..." B)

Below: Picture of an old and nearly-forgotten hijacker with some family members. 

It's THIS GUY. He actually pre-dates Cooper. 

RLabadie89.jpg.25d4611c5e9987bc163586f8441d8a0c.jpg 

Edited by RobertMBlevins
Added pictures

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 If you guys were smart, you would support BOTH those events with every fiber of your being before you are down to nothing. The Ariel Store party is long gone.

Robert, you are the one with the lower attendance. The Ariel store can't be replaced. it was a well established hot spot for DB Cooper. you are not accepted by many whether you like it or not. it has nothing to do with Cooper and has everything to do with your personality and actions. if people don't like you they will not support you, period. you keep begging for a connection of events. Eric doesn't say a word about you and you crap all over his events and then whine they he doesn't support you? nobody suffers excluding you, except you, Robert. 

Also, you might want to stop claiming sketches can be off and then proudly post Kenny's picture next to a Cooper sketch as proof he could be Cooper? 

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