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DB Cooper

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(edited)

and Chaucer gets it wrong again...

The prep phase did not include opening the packets,, 

This is the entire enchilada....  the TBAR money was in the same order as the Micro which was made many months before NORJAK.. The individual packets were not randomized by count.. the bundles were.

You guys still can't get this straight... 

A decade of Georger's misinformation just won't die...

You guys keep going in circles,,, I got this.

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and Chaucer gets it wrong again...

The prep phase did not include opening the packets,, 

This is the entire enchilada....  the TBAR money was in the same order as the Micro which was made many months before NORJAK.. The individual packets were not randomized by count.. the bundles were.

You guys still can't get this straight... 

A decade of Georger's misinformation just won't die...

You guys keep going in circles,,, I got this.

Well, we can't check in until after 2PM at the state park site, so I have a few minutes to address this comment and a few other things. 

First, I agree that the prep of the money for Cooper went pretty much the way you have said. The money itself was in those packets of 100 20-dollar bills, yes. And yes...what they did since everyone was in such a hurry (It WAS Thanksgiving Eve, after all) was that they started grabbing these packets off the shelf and sticking rubber bands on them, two or three or perhaps four packets at a time. They were assembled into the bundles randomly, and the purpose was to fool Cooper into thinking no one had recorded the bills. Plus...a quick glance at individual bills would have shown that the bills were not brand new, or in numerical order, which would indicate to Cooper that they HAD been recorded. This money was not set aside by SeaFirst for hijackings. It was emergency money set aside should SeaFirst be a victim of an extortion plot, or a kidnapping of a senior employee, for example. That is my understanding of why the money was there in the first place. Northwest Airlines could get hold of millions in cash if they wanted to, but they didn't keep that kind of money just laying around of course, so they had to go to a bank.

I was an account holder at SeaFirst not long after the hijacking. Had a small savings account with them. They were about the only bank where branches stayed open until 6PM weekdays, and one PM on Saturdays. This could be why NWA ended up going with SeaFirst to get the actual money for Cooper. By the time Flight 305 landed in Seattle, virtually all the other local banks would have been closed. And totally off the subject, but SeaFirst was also the MOST ROBBED bank in Puget Sound. Two reasons mainly....they were open late and there were a LOT of branches around. Their security was a bit lax, so they got robbed a lot. (*laughs*) In fact, the most famous bank robber in Seattle, 'Hollywood,' (Scott Scurlock) picked on them regularly. 

If we are all going to sit here and discuss the case like normal folks, then I propose that everyone with a specific suspect in mind, or if you think 'your' guy is 'THE' guy...then we should agree not to keep saying we are absolutely sure on someone being Cooper. Because there is no way any of us, including me, can say that with a certainty. I may have the testimony of certain witnesses and other evidence, and YOU may have a description that you think meets the criteria. But no one can say with a straight face that their guy is THE guy. And to be certain about it. If this were the case, we wouldn't be here now and one of us would be on the national news. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and no one in Cooperland can say right now they know for certain who Cooper was. They can believe they have their guy, but once you start going down the road of dismissing other suspects in favor of your own....and you are unwilling to provide proof of that suspect...it is a hollow claim indeed. If Cooperland is anything, it is certainly a put up or shut up kind of deal. I have 'put up' quite a bit publicly, but even I cannot say for sure that Cooper was Christiansen, for example. The truth is I don't know for sure. 

You are right when you say Eric Ulis is a hustler who has made up his own facts occasionally to suit his purposes, which is not so much to solve the case, but as a matter of self-promotion. He's running for public office. He is organizing another convention, and I suspect ticket sales at $21.50 a pop are not going all that well. Plus he wants to be both the star/headliner, and the host. This is usually a mistake unless you are someone really famous. The better way is to host the event, take credit for it, and bring IN headliners. Eric has not learned that yet. Also, his exclusion of some of the larger Northwest names in the case is going to have an effect. Not that I would attend, but I am receiving emails on a regular basis asking if I will be there in November, and if not...why not. So far I have been dodging these questions with people. 

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(edited)

i've found it's always good to bring up old stuff again.

people's perceptions change, different people are in the mix, new data shifts views (like all the fbi files)

it was a lot more weird in the old days when there were no fbi files. 
And part of the deal is people who think their point of view is the one true perception.
I think the cooper thing attracts people who believe their brains are magical pattern perceptors, and they sense a pattern other people can't see.

since it reflects self-perception, it's no wonder people get all defensive/attacking/confrontational. Partly all of this is a reflection of self. IMHO.

Edited by snowmman
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(edited)
5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and Chaucer gets it wrong again...

The prep phase did not include opening the packets,, 

This is the entire enchilada....  the TBAR money was in the same order as the Micro which was made many months before NORJAK.. The individual packets were not randomized by count.. the bundles were.

You guys still can't get this straight... 

A decade of Georger's misinformation just won't die...

You guys keep going in circles,,, I got this.

Yeah, I've been musing how the FBI sorted the list.
they could have keypunched the serials unto computer paper cards (the keypunch cards) and had a computer sort.

 

The way the serials are typed in the list, makes it easier for manual verification, because the context provides a limit for "what's legal" in both a vertical and horizontal dimension. Also easier for humans visually to verify.

I found an apparent typing error by the FBI in that list. C instead of 0. Although, if you substitute in the correct 0, the serials were in the right order. (maybe their sort sorts C before 1)

The 2nd thing I found, is that same serial is part of a consecutive non-star serial pair.

 

I posted the details at dbcooperforum on the tena bar subject just now. I posted the image from fbi file 55 so you can see/compare/agree or disagree with me, also.

EDIT: I'm still early in my list creation. so don't know what more might be interesting in the list.

Edited by snowmman

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I put a better theory about the FBI mistype of C at dbcooperforum. I think assuming the C is 0 is wrong, since it's unlikely there were non-star consecutive serials, and especially unlikely that the first one I find is a mistyped serial, where you have to assume C was meant to be 0. 

I posted:
EDIT: another theory would be that the C was a mistype, and that assuming it's supposed to be a 0 is incorrect, because it's unlikely there were non-star consecutive serial numbers and that one "just happened" to be on the one with consecutive serials.

SO: it would mean there is a serial with one digit, that could be 0, 2-9
i.e. it could be any of 9 other serials (1 is already taken)

that's the more likely explanation here. (with the fbi sorting the mistyped C before 1 in this case)

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(edited)
58 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Yeah, I've been musing how the FBI sorted the list.
they could have keypunched the serials unto computer paper cards (the keypunch cards) and had a computer sort.

 

The way the serials are typed in the list, makes it easier for manual verification, because the context provides a limit for "what's legal" in both a vertical and horizontal dimension. Also easier for humans visually to verify.

I found an apparent typing error by the FBI in that list. C instead of 0. Although, if you substitute in the correct 0, the serials were in the right order. (maybe their sort sorts C before 1)

The 2nd thing I found, is that same serial is part of a consecutive non-star serial pair.

 

I posted the details at dbcooperforum on the tena bar subject just now. I posted the image from fbi file 55 so you can see/compare/agree or disagree with me, also.

I posted the non star sequence notes above somewhere.. that mistyped C one looks like a typo in the list. In Tosaw's book it is a zero.

Yes, looking at stuff again is always a good thing... I even recheck my own stuff. It often gives you more clarity and perspective. One thing I found interesting was to go back to the start of the FBI files and read them again. You see things differently because you have more knowledge than during the first read. Funny, I have so much stuff now that I have caught myself looking for info that I already found... I can't even keep track of it all anymore. Thousands of files and tens of thousands of pages.

I have concluded that the list itself is only good to the check SN's and find some unique ones that may be collectible and google them..

The curation of the list is a rats nest.. and its accuracy cannot be 100% verified, but it is all we have.

The unprocessed micro given to the FBI was an image of half of the bill in order but included 1500 notes not given to Cooper. The 1500 notes were then incorporated into second bank stash and the FBI also needed that micro to sort out the first one. 

Problems..

The chain of custody for the bills vs the micro by the bank prior to NORJAK is unverifiable.

The process for curating the list was deductive one, not a positive recording.

The list is 9998 bills indicating that there was an error in the curating/deduction process.

 

Conclusion, there is no way to confirm the accuracy of the FBI bill list vs the actual bills Cooper received though any errors are likely not material but are theoretically possible.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
1 hour ago, snowmman said:


And part of the deal is people who think their point of view is the one true perception.
I think the cooper thing attracts people who believe their brains are magical pattern perceptors, and they sense a pattern other people can't see.

since it reflects self-perception, it's no wonder people get all defensive/attacking/confrontational. Partly all of this is a reflection of self. IMHO.

The Cooper case attracts its share of stubborn narcissists... 

The case is both a collaboration and a competition. Like animal farm.

In any investigation you need to use speculation as a tool to advance inquiry, of course not all speculation is created equal. Speculation is a personal expression of reason, logic, history and experience... some are better at it than others. I found that Cooper sleuths will use speculation to reject unknowns... that ends intellectual inquiry prematurely. Never reject based on speculation... reject on facts.

So, I get pissed when people claim Hahneman isn't Cooper with no evidence or adequate knowledge about him. Neither should they assert he is with inadequate knowledge. The correct position, the unbiased rational position is to be neutral. It isn't yes or no, there is a neutral.. and that same dynamic also exist in most other aspects of the case.

I pointed out the problems with money years ago and was trashed and told to shut up by people who didn't see what I saw and turned out to be true. That is a reflection on those people.

The Cooper case is really just a very complex logic puzzle.. but we have pieces missing and some that don't even belong. The trick is to realize there is no spoon.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
33 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Indeed it does...

 

You threw an embarrassing childish hissy fit and ran off trashing DZ because I didn't accept your speculative theory which was factually flawed..

To return...

Stay classy C...  you owe this place an apology.

You proud of your behaviour,,, that was Georger level crazy..

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

This is fascinating...  

If this quote from Cossey is true.. it explains everything. Cossey assumed two of his back rigs from Issaquah went to Cooper with the front reserves,,, that explains the sport rig vs NB-8 in the FBI files and ultimately Cossey got the NB6/8 rig taken by Cooper wrong based on an assumption.. the rig left and returned to Hayden was not a freefall rig.

It looks like the FBI relying on Cossey has undermined the case entirely.

https://uspa.org/p/Article/the-secrets-of-db-cooper-part-one-notorious-flight-305


"Gear Details
The evening of the hijacking, Cossey received another call from authorities after the jet landed in Reno, and he then learned what happened to his gear. Cossey explains, “The skydiver staying at the loft had grabbed two of my personal backpacks and two chest packs from the drop zone. One was my B-4 sport rig and the other was my Pioneer NB-8, a Navy emergency chute used for pilots.” Over the phone, Cossey learned that Cooper took his NB-8 pilot emergency backpack and that his freefall rig remained in the aircraft."

 

 

Later, Cossey told Carr the chutes came from his home..

It all makes sense now,, initially Cossey thought/assumed two of his back chutes were taken from Issaquah and given to Cooper, a sport rig and a custom NB6/8.. as noted in FBI files.

Cossey conveyed his description of the chutes to the FBI, later he must have realized his mistake but never admitted it.. Instead his chute story shifted...

They were looking for the wrong chute for 50 years..

 

Cooper must have used.,,

MAKE: Pioneer Parachute Co.

TYPE: 24' Ripstop Conical 

SERIAL NO: 60-9707

DATE OF MFR: July, 1960

INSPECTED BY: May 21, 1971 by E J Cossey on  riggers license number 159638

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You threw an embarrassing childish hissy fit and ran off trashing DZ because I didn't accept your speculative theory which was factually flawed..

To return...

Stay classy C...  you owe this place an apology.

You proud of your behaviour,,, that was Georger level crazy..

I left because you are a stubborn narcissist.

Besides…don’t worry about me…”you got this”

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(edited)
27 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I left because you are a stubborn narcissist.

Besides…don’t worry about me…”you got this”

Apparently you returned, to a place you trashed.. to project.

I am embarrassed for you,,,  you behaviour was childish,,, making your kids proud are you.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
28 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Takes a special kind of asshole to bring someone’s children into this. 
 

Who should be embarrassed?

 

YOU..  a grown man with kids behaving like you did...  proud of yourself too. You owe this forum an apology and instead double down like a stubborn narcissist.

All I did was agree with the FBI jump time analysis based on my review, you lied and claimed I needed the 8:11 time for some "agenda" paraphrasing but that was BS. 

That is the same immature tactic Georger uses when he doesn't get his way. Discredit others.

You have one opportunity here for redemption, either apologize or don't and confirm that you are a fraud.

 

Otherwise,

For now on hence forth you shall be deemed Geoger's mini me,, or miniG..

 

You decide,, but I am getting back to the case, you bore me.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Due to the Schneider Springs fire, my reserved campsite near Highway 12 was canceled. They are closing all the campgrounds on the east side of Highway 12 all the way to White Pass. They did refund my debit card. We found this out just as we were getting ready to leave. 

So...I came up with an alternate plan. We're going to Darland Mountain instead and camping solo. No organized campground. We just take everything with us this time. Not quite to the top (6900 feet) but close. Full gear, including TV, stereo, generator, and even a microwave. Yeah, we really rough it. We will camp a bit below the summit, but where smartphones still get signal. At over 6,000 feet, you can get signal pretty much anywhere in the lower 48. Trust me on this.

This fire has been blanketing Yakima for two weeks with smoke, off and on. We are tired of this crap. Up that high, most of the smoke will be at a lower elevation. The still shots and the video should be memorable. We may even see a UFO up there. From Darland you can see from Mt. Hood in Oregon all the way to Glacier Peak and Mt. Baker in northern WA. I have been there twice on camping trips so I know where we are going. 

If you don't believe all that, just hit Google Maps for Darland Mountain, WA and start doing zoom in, turn the image, and 3D. Here is a small preview. Susan and I will be up there for a few days banging each other and shooting memorable stills and video. That is pretty much the plan. B)Sorry to be so graphic about it, but even the old folks must have fun occasionally.  

 

ViewFromDarlandMountain.jpg

S1_A2.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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There are many 1963A bills that end in "D"..

B17745050D, L26672287D, L27108703D, L27143052D, L29580707D, L35534904D

There are three options, a wrong letter typo, the historical data is wrong or the date 1963A is wrong but SN is correct.

 

Now, check the 1950 bills...   many don't fit the ranges..

 

The larger serial number would have been much easier to get right than the small year print on the processed image of the micro..  

My guess is the SN's are correct but years are wrong but we can't check.

 

The RECORDAK machine normally takes full images of front and back of bills,,

For the Cooper ransom fund, only one side and one half of the bill was imaged.

 

recordakprocess.jpeg.230e778b8266d2ef29b282e82c66962c.jpeg

 

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8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Susan and I will be up there for a few days banging each other and shooting memorable stills and video.

That is way more information than any of us needed. Hopefully, the "memorable stills and video" will remain private and not find their way to the DZ.

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19 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

That is way more information than any of us needed. Hopefully, the "memorable stills and video" will remain private and not find their way to the DZ.

Well, if viewers and readers of this thread WANTED to see what it is like up on Darland Mountain (altitude about 7,000 feet), then I might post them. When the visibility is good you can see from Mt Adams in the south all the way up the Cascade chain to Mt Baker in the north. That is a distance of over 200 miles easily. In between is Rainier and St. Helens. But this stuff has nothing to do with Cooper. And usually when I do this kind of video lately I will only share at Facebook or something. 

After my attempt at humor back there regarding extracurricular activities in the wilderness, I wouldn't blame anyone if they didn't want to hear a single other thing about the trip. We had to re-do our schedule. Now leaving tomorrow morning. Paper this morning says the Schneider Springs fire has grown to 56,000 acres. Two days ago it was 15,000. 

Sometimes I think you guys don't get out enough. Don't have enough fun. Way too serious. Besides, I've come to the idea that the Cooper case will probably never be solved. I personally gave up the active investigation of it at least a year ago, although discussing it online (sometimes) or answering emails about it, (much more) is okay. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well, if viewers and readers of this thread WANTED...

 

What readers of this thread WANT is discussion of the Cooper case. This is not your facebook page.

 

You were in a very long term relationship. You broke up. Within short order, you have a new girlfriend who is your 'fiancee', owns half your company, and you make sniggering remarks about basic, universal, but PRIVATE human behavior.

How old did you say you were?

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3 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

What readers of this thread WANT is discussion of the Cooper case. This is not your facebook page.

You were in a very long term relationship. You broke up. Within short order, you have a new girlfriend who is your 'fiancee', owns half your company, and you make sniggering remarks about basic, universal, but PRIVATE human behavior.

How old did you say you were?

Old enough, but not too old. And she doesn't own the half the company. She only handles the books. AB of Seattle is 100% a sole proprietorship. The relationship with the former girlfriend was long over by the time I met Susan, not that you would be interested. 

My view of things is that you guys are way too serious about yourselves, can't get along for shit, keep excluding people to a bad result, don't believe there is any life other than Cooper, and wouldn't know how to attract the public BACK to Cooper, or into a decent venue if the book of directions dropped into your laps.

I've tried to help you (and others) with some of these problems, but it was all rejected, so I guess you guys know everything there is to know about all that. The only real animosity I have with people who hang out at Shutter's forum (I'm a pretty easygoing guy mostly) was the fiasco where Sheridan's book was stolen, published through Lulu dot com, and then left to rot at Amazon for 25 bucks a copy. That is hard to forgive and no one has tried to make it right to Sheridan or his family. And yes...Snowmman was 75% responsible for that. 

I hang out at another website called Infamous Nissan where I sometimes help people with their classic Nissan rigs. And you can bet we don't ALWAYS talk about our trucks. Otherwise it would get boring pretty quick. You think I am a renegade. I think some of you must have the boring lives in existence. ^_^

EDIT: Not that it matters, but because someone might call me out on it...we decided not to leave until Sunday morning and will return the following Thursday. Took me four hours to load the truck, plus the extra load on top. We decided to do the food/beverage shopping tomorrow (Saturday) and just go on Sunday. Meanwhile, we are staying inside. The smoke index in Yakima has been hitting 200, which is designated as 'Very Unhealthy' according to the WA State Dept. of Ecology website. They have an interactive map there that tells you what is going on. And Susan has asthma, not a real bad case, but enough so I want her to stay inside for now. I don't anticipate any smoke hanging out at the summit of Darland, due to the altitude. The smoke generally hangs down below 3,000 feet. So we will just climb right out of it on Sunday to some fresh air. I found this out about the wildfire smoke when it was hitting Seattle real hard and I took a flight to visit my folks in Phoenix. Down on the runway it was a fall fog hanging out. After we climbed to around 3-4 thousand feet, you could see for miles in any direction, but you could not see the ground at ALL. It was completely shrouded in smoke. Really weird if you have not seen this phenomenon before. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

There are many 1963A bills that end in "D"..

B17745050D, L26672287D, L27108703D, L27143052D, L29580707D, L35534904D

There are three options, a wrong letter typo, the historical data is wrong or the date 1963A is wrong but SN is correct.

 

Now, check the 1950 bills...   many don't fit the ranges..

 

The larger serial number would have been much easier to get right than the small year print on the processed image of the micro..  

My guess is the SN's are correct but years are wrong but we can't check.

 

The RECORDAK machine normally takes full images of front and back of bills,,

For the Cooper ransom fund, only one side and one half of the bill was imaged.

 

recordakprocess.jpeg.230e778b8266d2ef29b282e82c66962c.jpeg

 

yeah, I've been posting some stuff about this at dbcooperforum 

when I create my list, I"m going to assume the D run 50C notes are really 50D series. There are no 50D or 50E series notes in the cooper sample, which is a little unexpected. There are other FBI typos also.

 

So while it may not affect a large number of notes...there's the added wrinkle of the amount of human work that was done transcribing from microfiche, and what error rate that had, and what kind of typos.

 

the worst typo would be a full bundle start/stop pair.. that would mean 100 notes would be wrong.

I've added full range check from the collector book that's the authority in this area.

 

however he notes, there is still some discrepancy in what the ranges are supposed to be, and what got printed. Notably in the 63/63A area. I've not run into discrepancies yet though, just things that look like fbi typos.

 

checksix repeats some  of the obvious errors like 50C series for L district with a D run, (last letter in serial) which never happened. it did for 50D series.

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