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DB Cooper

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(edited)
7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger claims bait money is never sent out in paper straps... he cites experts and protocol. Georger is manufacturing a premise to influence perception.

Richard Floyd McCoy ransom money in what,,,, paper straps.

mccoyransompackets.jpg.59cd04f10480e2948750ccfcd6fae033.jpg

 

Even though the evidence strongly suggests paper bands were used it isn't really material. Carr believed that the packets were randomized in count.

CKRET..

"November 29, 2007 · Report reply

The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it. I have been searching for the evidence report from the lab but have not found it yet, lots of files to go through. When I get it you'll be the second to know."

Here he makes two errors, 1st he is referring to the packets of 100 as bundles and 2nd they were not random counts, they were in 100's..

Georger and Carr got this wrong a decade ago and this error plagues the case today.

The important takeaway is the individual packets (100 bills) were not randomized in count, the rubber banded bundles of individual packets was. That means the money went to Cooper in individual packets of 100's and those packets were rubber banded into random sized bundles.

What does that mean,, the TBAR money likely arrived as one rubber banded bundle of several packets (100 bills each).

And that means the idea that the money could have ONLY arrived on TBAR as three separate packets thereby limiting how it got there is BUSTED.

Welcome to 2017.... strapped packets were not opened and recombined.

Flyjack, you've done good work and I agree with all this.

Too bad we don't have a list of start/end serials for the currency Cooper got. All we got are the start/end pairs for the packets he didn't get out of the approx. $230,000 (15 or 16 packets of 100 bills depending on which serials you use)

I believe there is reference to $230,000 somewhere? (or was that deduced as $200k + (15 * (100 * $20) ) implying $30k was removed, and cooper got $200k

I forget. I think that aligns with 15 * $2000 (which is $20 * 100 bills) being removed, from the microfiche list before the Hoover list was published. (of supposedly 10,000 bills, I've not counted that list yet)

 

The idea that strapped 100 count packets were ripped open and recombined before giving them to Cooper, is ridiculous. They didn't have time for that.Nor would it have been that important. As you've shown, it wasn't a fixed protocol. 

I believe Carr had a bias, and his bias affected a lot of his information he propagated.

Now, if there were rubber bands around multiple packets, when they were found, then it's interesting that apparently no trace of paper strapping was found. But then again, the idea that crumbling rubber bands were found, is debatable.

And no, I don't think there was a hurried micorfiche of individual bills done that night. The microfiche had already be done. All that happened was recording of the start/end serials of the packets Cooper got. (which we don't have documentation of, only indirectly through the "Hoover memo" list.

Edited by snowmman

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Robert, you can't win this, you need to understand you've already lost.

 

It is a fact, there was a very high level intervention on Hahneman's behalf... above the FBI. That doesn't mean the FBI as a whole knew Hahneman was Cooper, the FBI doesn't work like that. You keep making these irrational assumptions.

No, I don't think the FBI as whole knew Hahneman was Cooper or covered it up. The intervention would have been isolated at the very top from higher up.

You use the label "conspiracy theory" to discredit... It is meaningless drivel.. Most things are actually conspiracies.. The term "Conspiracy Theory" was invented as propaganda by the intel agencies to discredit critics. A conspiracy is an act to conspire, an act or agreement toward a common end. That can be applied to virtually everything. It is a propaganda term. Applying the label is meaningless.

Further, the other fact you ignore is that the FBI made a gross error for Hahneman, one that would eliminate him from NORJAK. However, I don't know if it was a legit error or FBI misinformation or if they did use it to eliminate him.

So, we know the FBI is not perfect, they make mistakes, they are also influenced by political factors.

Hahneman is redacted from FBI Cooper files.. long after he died, there is no reason to redact him as all other dead suspects are named. The FBI files are riddled with the names and investigative detiails of major suspects except Peterson because he just recently died and Hahneman who died 30 years ago.. 

The prints here were not confirmed Hahneman's, they were from the plane he hijacked. They compared those to NORJAK's. 

REDACTED.... 

norjakhahprintsnotmatch1.jpg.6828682514678511dc8dee0933d21a5a.jpg

I believe this is likely Hahneman's name redacted, he was identified and in custody before this time,, I filled in the redactions and it fits. Of course since it is redacted I can't prove it.

gregoryhahneman.jpeg.e098152339e62f68e40247a45cb48fd9.jpeg.8d65f7c452ac95013afd9475f3ed7ef9.jpeg

 

And no you are wrong.. as usual, half the male population did not match Cooper's description. Your incredibly biased mind is both exaggerating and only considering the sketch not the full description. You even stick to sketch A even though the FBI clearly stated that sketch B is the most accurate. Sketch A should be trashed.

The best clue and one everyone ignores is the description as dark/olive/swarthy complexion and Latin/Mexican/Indian appearance, descent and features.. and we haven't even got to the age, hair, lips,,,,

It just amazes me that almost everyone ignores this.. not really.

That alone eliminates KC and most Cooper suspects..

Pack your bags and head over to the UFO forum... you lost, all your KC stuff is null and VOID.

KC is not Cooper....  you know it. I know it, everybody with a pulse and a basic understanding of the case knows it.

 

BTW,, I am using you as a foil to get this info to everyone else, not to change your mind.

What info? Your personal belief that Kenny Christiansen wasn't Cooper? Like you would know? As if you have access to our files on he and Bernie Geestman? 

Unfortunately, we sort of got 'the info' out years ago regarding Kenny when we made the report on him available as a free download to the public for years, and did the videos and presentations to the Seattle FBI. I stopped counting the downloads after the first 100,000 or so. You are a day late and several dollars short. 

I do NOT know that KC isn't Cooper. You can stop quoting that because if I knew that for sure I would have said so by now. Your opinion on him and mine are far different.

If all my stuff on KC was null and void, the book would not continue to sell each month in good quantities ten years after its initial release, and people I never heard of would not be sending me emails with questions on the Cooper case, or Kenny himself. You have no idea. 

That one document you posted probably WAS regarding Hahneman. It says his prints don't match the ones they got from Flight 305. 

You want to keep going up the food chain at the FBI and the Feds regarding Hahneman and how he was mysteriously bypassed, protected, whatever you wish to call it regarding his involvement in the Cooper case? Then brother you better start producing a bit of evidence on that instead of just claiming it. 

The one big fly in the buttermilk, the one thing you can't explain or dismiss away with claims of conspiracy by your mysterious 'higher ups', (unnamed of course) is that the Feds dropped Hahneman in front of a Federal judge after he was caught, gave him a bunch of years in prison, and made him do ten of them before he was released. 

Your theory on him is a fixation. It is not based on investigation outside of the internet, or on even ONE witness you can name. You have fixated on the ridiculous idea that Hahneman could pull off a high-profile hijacking, steal nearly half a million bucks, jump out over the jungles of Honduras, finally turn himself him, go straight to jail (Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200) and somehow only YOU figured out he might be Cooper? And not with any evidence, not a shred. But by blaming this on 'higher ups' in the government without even bothering to back any of that garbage with a bit of evidence. If you worked for the Washington Post, they would tell you to verify your sources. Problem is...you don't HAVE any. 

Even Eric Ulis didn't do THAT. In fact, he is a better man than you, and a better investigator. Here is why: He figured out he was barking up the wrong tree and admitted it, and he is putting up the bucks for Cooper Con. You have done some good research on the chutes and the money, but these are things that won't lead you to the identity of Cooper. You are farting around with trivial stuff that in the end won't get you any closer to identifying him. 

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(edited)

No big deal, but I will be unavailable from Monday August 23 until the following Friday. Susan and I are heading to the high country for a camping trip. Since we're taking the generator, she insisted we bring the microwave for dinners and popcorn as well. (*smiles*) It's totally crazy of course. But she is right. 

Quote

"It likes to hide inside an imitation..."
Kurt Russell, The Thing

We do not do this. We have no problem actually showing people who we are, unlike some others in Cooperland. ^_^ Just ordinary folks. And certainly not liars, I can assure you. Or in need of mental help as some have claimed. Who knows? We may even tie the knot soon. I think it's good to know the people you discuss things with and this is me, or us as it were. I know some of you have seen this picture of us before, but you have to admit it's a good one. 

S1_A2.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)
10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

What info? Your personal belief that Kenny Christiansen wasn't Cooper? Like you would know? As if you have access to our files on he and Bernie Geestman? 

Unfortunately, we sort of got 'the info' out years ago regarding Kenny when we made the report on him available as a free download to the public for years, and did the videos and presentations to the Seattle FBI. I stopped counting the downloads after the first 100,000 or so. You are a day late and several dollars short. 

I do NOT know that KC isn't Cooper. You can stop quoting that because if I knew that for sure I would have said so by now. Your opinion on him and mine are far different.

If all my stuff on KC was null and void, the book would not continue to sell each month in good quantities ten years after its initial release, and people I never heard of would not be sending me emails with questions on the Cooper case, or Kenny himself. You have no idea. 

That one document you posted probably WAS regarding Hahneman. It says his prints don't match the ones they got from Flight 305. 

You want to keep going up the food chain at the FBI and the Feds regarding Hahneman and how he was mysteriously bypassed, protected, whatever you wish to call it regarding his involvement in the Cooper case? Then brother you better start producing a bit of evidence on that instead of just claiming it. 

The one big fly in the buttermilk, the one thing you can't explain or dismiss away with claims of conspiracy by your mysterious 'higher ups', (unnamed of course) is that the Feds dropped Hahneman in front of a Federal judge after he was caught, gave him a bunch of years in prison, and made him do ten of them before he was released. 

Your theory on him is a fixation. It is not based on investigation outside of the internet, or on even ONE witness you can name. You have fixated on the ridiculous idea that Hahneman could pull off a high-profile hijacking, steal nearly half a million bucks, jump out over the jungles of Honduras, finally turn himself him, go straight to jail (Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200) and somehow only YOU figured out he might be Cooper? And not with any evidence, not a shred. But by blaming this on 'higher ups' in the government without even bothering to back any of that garbage with a bit of evidence. If you worked for the Washington Post, they would tell you to verify your sources. Problem is...you don't HAVE any. 

Even Eric Ulis didn't do THAT. In fact, he is a better man than you, and a better investigator. Here is why: He figured out he was barking up the wrong tree and admitted it, and he is putting up the bucks for Cooper Con. You have done some good research on the chutes and the money, but these are things that won't lead you to the identity of Cooper. You are farting around with trivial stuff that in the end won't get you any closer to identifying him. 

Dude, I have the receipts and I have good reasons for not sharing them. I have thousands of pieces of information.

FACT,, Hahneman was redacted,,, you were what you call it.. WRONG, OUCH

Just because you and Eric were motivated to make your cases public doesn't mean everyone has to.

Besides, your attack on me and my research is irrelevant, what I say or do or release doesn't impact whether Hahneman was Cooper in any way. He either was or wasn't and you can't prove he wasn't. I tried and I can't prove he wasn't.

You have this irrational obsession claiming that because I don't release my research then Hahneman wasn't Cooper.... this is insane.

Your claim that he wasn't because the FBI would have figured it out and told everybody is conjecture, not fact. You do understand the difference.

The FBI looked at KC years before you and you sent your KC case to the FBI and they didn't do anything, by your logic that proves he wasn't Cooper. oops.. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.... I wouldn't eliminate any suspect based on the actions of the FBI. Even Eric shouted over and over that often in cold cases the guilty person was previously looked at by investigators...

Let's bring up Eric,, he finally eliminated Peterson based on Cooper smoking and Peterson not, that was a fact not speculation... get it.

How can Eric be a better investigator when he has got everything wrong. Like your narrative, Eric's narrative is based on conjecture..

I started looking at Hahneman to eliminate him but I found no facts that did.

If you have actual facts that eliminate Hahneman please let me know...

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Unfortunately for you, Mr Blevins.

The case for KC is extremely weak speculation but since KC DOES NOT match the basic description for Cooper, he is eliminated.

You brag about the FBI files being useless... 

Cooper was universally described as having a dark/swarthy/olive complexion and Latin/Mexican/Indian descent, features and characteristics...   that nails Hahneman exactly. That alone doesn't prove he is Cooper but...

It eliminates KC and most other suspects. NOBODY said suntan (in November).

Here are the receipts and I stopped part way though the files.. I think the point is clear.


FBI PART 8 P 18

Complexion: Olive, Latin appearance, medium smooth

FBI PART 8 P 21
average to well built, olive or swarthy complexion, medium smooth, dark brown or
black hair parted on left side, combed back 

FBI PART 8 P 177
Complexion: Olive, Latin appearance, medium smooth
 
FBI PART 8 P 179
ALL OFFICES ARE TO BEAR IN MIND WHEN CAPTIONED CRIME WAS COMMITTED ON NOVEMBER 11, 1971, UNSUB AKA D. B. COOPER WAS
DESCR!BED AS BEING A WHITE MALE, t1ID·FORTIES, 5• 10" TO 6' 0", 170 POUNDS, OLIVE COMPLEXION, AND LATIN APPEARANCE.

FBI PART 9 P 666
The intent of this change to the artist's composite is to more clearly show UNSUB's age and swarthy complexion.
 
FBI PART 9 P 862
WHITE MALE, AGE 40S, HEIGHT 5'10'' TO 6'0", ..
170 TO 180 POUNDS, COMPLEXION OLIVE, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH, HAIR DARK BROWN OR BLACK, 
 
FBI PART 9 P 919
ALL OFFICES ARE TO BEAR IN MIND WHEN CAPTIONED CRIME WAS ON NOVEMBER 11, 1971, UNSUB AKA. B. COOPER WAS DESCRIBED AS BEING A WHITE MALE, 5 ' 1 0 " TO 6 ' 0 “ , 170 POUNDS, OLIVE AND LATIN APPEARANCE.
 
FBI PART 10 P 1304
complexion olive, medium smooth
 
FBI PART 10 P 1531
DESCRIPTION OF THF. SUBJECT OBTAINED BY INTERVIEW WITH STEWARDESSES AS FOLLOWS;
WHITE, MALE, AMERICAN, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE
 
FBI PART 10 P 1683
OLIVE-TYPE
 
 
FBI PART 10 P 1683
said that the man appeared to be Latin descent
 
FBI PART 10 P 1752
OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE
 
FBI PART 11 P 1922
FOLLOWING COMPOSITE TAKEN FROM INTERVIEWS OF WITNESSES WHO WERE IN A POSITION TO SEE UNSUB.

RACE, WHITE; SEX, MALE; AGE, MID FORTY'S; FIVE FT TEN TO SIX FT . , ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY POUNDS, AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH COMPLEXION, DARK BROWN OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK; SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL; EYES, POSSIBLY BROWN, 

FBI PART 11 P 1982
DESCRIBED AS WHITE, MALE, MID FORTIES, SEVENTY TO ONE EIGHTY, OLIVE COMPLEXION, OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON SMOKED RALEIGH CIGARETTES.

FBI PART 11 P 2036
Mr. MILNES said the hijacker was described as white, male, American, olive complexion, Latin appearance, black hair, normal hair style parted on left, age middle forties, six feet tall, 170 to 175 pounds, average build, brown eyes. He was wearing a black suit, white shirt, narrow black tie, black rain-type overcoat, black dress suit, and was carrying a dark briefcase.

FBI PART 11 P 2039
Race: Caucasian, believed to be of Mexican-American descent with possibly some American Indian blood

FBI PART 11 P 2047
UNSUB described as white male, mid-forties, five ten to six feet, one seventy to one eighty, olive complexion, latin appearance, dark brown or black hair combed straight back in normal
style, parted on left, smoked Raleigh cigarettes.

FBI PART 11 P 2056
that he has average eyes, of Latin appearance, with a sort of disinterested look
 
FBI PART 11 P 2135
CHEEKS TOO FLAT, SHOULD BE MORE ROUNDED TO GIVE MEXICAN-AMERICAN APPEARANCE.

FBI PART 11 P 2224
WHITE, MALE, MID 40's, 5'1011 TO 611 , 170 Tel 180 lbs., AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH, DARK BROWN OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK, SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL, POSSIBLY BROWN EYES, DURING LATTER PART OF FLIGHT PUTr DARK, WRAP-AROUND SUNGLASSES WITH DARK RIMS. LOW VOICE, SPOKE INTELLIGENTLY; NO PARTICULAR ACCENT, POSSIBLY FROM MIDWEST SECTION OF THE U.S., HEAVY SMOKER OF RALEIGH FILTER TIP CIGARETTES, WEARING BLACK OR BROWN SUIT; WHITE SHIRT; NARROW BLACK TIE; BLACK DRESS SUIT;

FBI PART 11 P 1987
COMPLEXION: OLIVE, SWARTHY, THE LATIN TYPE

FBI PART 11 P 1841
COMPLEXION: OLIVE, LATIN APPERANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH
 
FBI PART 12 P 2367
MID-FORTIES; OLIVE COMPLEXION; BROWN EYES
 
FBI PART 12 P 2442
average to well built, olive or swarthy complexion
 
FBI PART 13 P 3119
Complexion: Olive, Latin appearance, medium smooth
 
FBI PART 13 P 3159
which he feels more closely depicts the nose and cheeks of the unknown subject, whom he feels was of Mexican-American dissent with possibly Indian blood.

FBI PART 15 P 4092
COMPLEXION OLIVE, LATIN APPEARANCE,

FBI PART 18  P 5497
RACE WHITE, SEX MALE, AGE MID FORTIES, HEIGHT FIVE FEET TEN INCHES TO SIX FEET, WEIGHT ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY POUNDS, BUILD AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, COMPLEXION OLIVE, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH; HAIR DARK BROWN OR BLACK, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK, SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL; EYES POSSIBLY BROWN.

FBI PART 19 P 5934
"Enclosed is an artist's conception of the hijacker who extorted two hundred thousand dollars from Northwest Airlines on November 24, 1971. This man is described as follows:

"Race-white; sex-male; age mid-forties; height-five feet ten inches to six feet; weight-170 to 180 pounds; build-average to well built; complexion olive, latin appearance, medium smooth; hair-dark brown or black; normal style, parted on left, combed back; sideburns, low ear level; eyes-possibly brown.

FBI PART 26 P 8545
He was unable to determine from the photograph the complexion of ______ but again emphasized the hijacker had a swarthy or Latin type complexion and it appeared to him might have such a complexion.

FBI PART 26 P 8574
OLIVE OR LATIN COMPLEXION·

Key witnesses generally agree that unsub had an "olive or Latin" complexion.- One witness indicated a Mexican-American or possibly Indian complexion and characteristics. In addition, unsub expressed a desire to go "anywhere in Mexico”.

FBI PART 26 P 8881
She thereafter remained in the cockpit where she prepared thirteen pages of notes concerning the hijacking and in which she described unsub as in his fifties. She later said he appeared to be of Latin descent.

FBI PART 26 P 8882
believed unsub was a Mexican-American. She bad a short encounter with the unsub prior to her deplaning at Seattle

FBI PART 27 P 9104
To date 475 suspects have been developed based·on appearance, as well as other features. Many of the suspects were developed because of their resemblance to the artist's composite of UNSUB. A 9reat number of these suspects have turned out to be in their 20s or early 30s, with light or fair complexion. According to witnesses, UNSUB's age is in the mid-40s and his complexion is olive or Latin in appearance. The artist's composite clearly· looks like a man in his late 20s or 30s and his complexion is difficult to determine
from the black and white sketch.

FBI PART 27 P 9390
In NORJAK case, • witnesses describe subject's complexion as olive, Latin appearance, medium smooth.

FBI PART 27 P 9327
In view of the fact that unsub in this matter had a swarthy complexion and was tentatively identified by several witnesses as possibly having Mexican ancestry, the following lead is being set out:

FBI PART 28 P 9541
lacks the Mexican or Indian characteristics that ____  noted in the hijacker. 

FBI PART 28 P 9559
further advised that the hijacker definitely had some Indian or Mexican blood in him. He would guess about one quarter Indian or Mexican blood. 

FBI PART 28 P 10037
FACIAL FEATURES: Should reflect a Mexican or Indian ancestry
 
FBI PART 29 P 10072
similar Mexican-type facial features 


FBI PART 33 P 12115
indicated that the unsub's complexion was somewhat swarthy indicating that he might have possibly been an American Indian or Mexican American.

FBI PART 34 P 13102
In view of the fact that UNSUB in this matter is possibly of American Indian decent, the following leads are being set forth pursuant to referenced communication:
Edited by FLYJACK

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10 hours ago, snowmman said:

Flyjack, you've done good work and I agree with all this.

Too bad we don't have a list of start/end serials for the currency Cooper got. All we got are the start/end pairs for the packets he didn't get out of the approx. $230,000 (15 or 16 packets of 100 bills depending on which serials you use)

I believe there is reference to $230,000 somewhere? (or was that deduced as $200k + (15 * (100 * $20) ) implying $30k was removed, and cooper got $200k

I forget. I think that aligns with 15 * $2000 (which is $20 * 100 bills) being removed, from the microfiche list before the Hoover list was published. (of supposedly 10,000 bills, I've not counted that list yet)

 

The idea that strapped 100 count packets were ripped open and recombined before giving them to Cooper, is ridiculous. They didn't have time for that.Nor would it have been that important. As you've shown, it wasn't a fixed protocol. 

I believe Carr had a bias, and his bias affected a lot of his information he propagated.

Now, if there were rubber bands around multiple packets, when they were found, then it's interesting that apparently no trace of paper strapping was found. But then again, the idea that crumbling rubber bands were found, is debatable.

And no, I don't think there was a hurried micorfiche of individual bills done that night. The microfiche had already be done. All that happened was recording of the start/end serials of the packets Cooper got. (which we don't have documentation of, only indirectly through the "Hoover memo" list.

A few years back I realized the dominant narrative did not make any sense.. how could the money go to Cooper, get randomized (count) and end up in 100's and the same order as given to Cooper as claimed by the FBI..  It can't.. So, I realized that Carr mixed up bundles and packets...  the packets of 100's were not a randomized count, the rubber banded bundles of random count packets was..

The FBI list has been re-ordered alpha numerically and without the original bill order we can't check their curation of the list. I have the about 80 Cooper bills noted in a spreadsheet and they are dispersed quite randomly throughout the 9998 bills. WE can't do much without the original bill order.

Another thing is the custody of the money vs the micro.. the bank was in control of them and we can't confirm that the micro matched the actual bills given to Cooper.. Theoretically, the bills can appear on the Micro but not be given to Cooper.. I don't think this is the case but we can't check it. For example, there was an airline extortion before NORJAK for $25,000, the person was caught in Portland and the money was never recovered. If, for example the money was taken from the bank stash then replaced but the micro wasn't updated then those bills would appear on the micro but no longer be in the stash.. 

The TBAR..

The evidence indicates money was given to Cooper in 100 bill packets of circulated $20 bills of random SN number sequence. The packets were likely bank paper strapped and those packets rubber banded into bundles of a random count of packets..

That means the rubber bands were at two places around the bundle. Now, the paper bands are not made of the same material currency is and it would deteriorate within months or less if there was abrasion along the bottom of the River. I believe Brian when he said there were rubber band fragments, we have no evidence for the location or any description of those fragments.. After the money lands on TBAR, the regular paper bank bands if still attached deteriorate quickly, and as the rubber bands holding the bundle deteriorate the packets separate slightly.. but there would still be rubber band fragments attached to the top and bottom packet. It all makes sense and is consistent with all the evidence. 

The FBI claimed it was one bundle, in the same order and form as given to Cooper.

This flips the dominant narrative that the money could have only arrived as three independent packets of 100,, this is inconsistent with form the money was given to Cooper. For this to happen then the packets must have been removed from their bundle after being given to Cooper. Further, if they were in bank bands there would be no rubber bands frags found,,

So, it is more likely the money landed on TBAR as one single rubber banded bundle of packets.

That completely changes the means by which it could have arrived. For example Ulis claims Cooper buried the money because three independent packets were found together. Others, claim the money had to arrive in a bag or container because the three packets were independent. Further, a single bundle would never go through a dredge intact. 

Once you realize the single bundle was more likely, it opens up the means of arrival. I believe it came from the River. It doesn't float. The money spot was often underwater in Spring and some Spring between 72 and 79 the money entered the River and tumbled along the bottom to the money spot under the water. At that time, the money spot was effectively the river bottom.

The money would be packaged something like this.. but $20's

1078480638_500000-prop-movie-money-bundles-in-duffel-bag-4copy.thumb.jpg.0ee7a8d86b51e88c64a411bcf281cc0a.jpg

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27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

yup, that all makes sense.

Another thing to wade through is the description of money deterioration over time.

In a cold low oxygen environment, like the bottom of the river, the currency could have stayed in good condition for longer than people have described. Deterioration may not have started until it surfaced.

I believe the paper in use for currency doesn't fall apart if held in water, unlike lower quality papers.

rubber bands are similarily affected. Low oxygen, or specifically non-exposure to various gases, would help their lifetime also.

 

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, snowmman said:

 

Did you catch Tom Kaye's diatom research...

It suggests the money entered the River in Spring and was buried soon after... 

Spring only diatom, no winter diatom's..

That would indicate a delay from NORJAK to entering the water, a Spring 72-79...

and a brief exposure to the River during that same Spring.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-70015-z

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 8/13/2021 at 12:46 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

Although I have backed off a bit from the Cooper Vortex, I think your assessment that the Cooper case is 'not for me' is well...wrong. I make a nice second income from sales of Into The Blast, and except for few haters in Cooperland, the general public does sometimes send nice messages about our investigation. They appreciate we didn't hold anything back, that we made everything we discovered about Kenny Christiansen, as well as Bernie Geestman, and their friends and relatives...completely open and public. We did not hold stuff back and just expect people to take our word on these folks' guilt, or lack of it. We just tossed everything out there for people and let THEM decide, let THEM make their own conclusions. 

 

Robert - If I were to go online and buy a copy of "Into The Blast", would that book tell me that Kenny Christiansen bought his house for cash, or has that error been corrected?

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(edited)
11 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

You want to keep going up the food chain at the FBI and the Feds regarding Hahneman and how he was mysteriously bypassed, protected, whatever you wish to call it regarding his involvement in the Cooper case? Then brother you better start producing a bit of evidence on that instead of just claiming it. 

The one big fly in the buttermilk, the one thing you can't explain or dismiss away with claims of conspiracy by your mysterious 'higher ups', (unnamed of course) is that the Feds dropped Hahneman in front of a Federal judge after he was caught, gave him a bunch of years in prison, and made him do ten of them before he was released. 

Your theory on him is a fixation. It is not based on investigation outside of the internet, or on even ONE witness you can name. You have fixated on the ridiculous idea that Hahneman could pull off a high-profile hijacking, steal nearly half a million bucks, jump out over the jungles of Honduras, finally turn himself him, go straight to jail (Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200) and somehow only YOU figured out he might be Cooper? And not with any evidence, not a shred. But by blaming this on 'higher ups' in the government without even bothering to back any of that garbage with a bit of evidence. If you worked for the Washington Post, they would tell you to verify your sources. Problem is...you don't HAVE any. 

I should address this in more detail..

I don't need to produce anything for you...  or anyone, where do you get this rule from?

Hahneman turned himself in but had hidden the money and he wasn't talking. When he went to court he plead guilty to reduced charges. There is evidence that he worked on CIA contracts as a radio/electronics engineer, he had a high level security clearance... I think they cut a deal, he did 12 yrs. They had to give him some time in jail for his hijacking. Hahmenan and his high level connection had leverage here. The CIA was under scrutiny at the time for illegal activities and Hahneman would be bad publicity if his connections got out.

You keep saying I have no evidence, I do have evidence lots of it. Just because I won't share it doesn't mean I don't have it..  on what planet is that logical.

In fact, I have so much that it is overwhelming and it would take a massive amount of work to present it properly.

It would be investigator malpractice to drop a suspect based on assumptions... that is what you are demanding.

 

BTW,,, last year I solved a 45 year old cold case from my computer at home. It involves a celebrity and they were all set to make a documentary but COVID messed that up as it involves international travel to Japan.

Blevins, have you ever actually solved a famous crime???  has Eric??

Edited by FLYJACK

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I hadn't read the article, thanks for the link.

first thoughts on the article:

looking at the picture, the bills should have been constrained by a paper strap, in multiple bundles secured by rubber bands, as the more likely packaging to cooper, but I think that doesn't change things much.

 
The idea that the bills were as shown, secured by rubber bands only, is very unlikely. The available documentation doesn't support that description. (mostly it comes from Carr pushing his bias, based on some undocumented info and conversations he had..but his point of view colored his descriptions of that info)

Additionally, testing the effect of a single bundle in water isn't interesting. A large number of strapped packets, with groups secured by rubber bands, in a bag, would behave differently.
 
There's nothing to suggest that the first arrival in water, was individual bundles, either from the sky or otherwise. Testing single bundles first, is an assumption/bias about bundles arriving in water.

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12 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Robert - If I were to go online and buy a copy of "Into The Blast", would that book tell me that Kenny Christiansen bought his house for cash, or has that error been corrected?


hey I don't support this idea of KC.

BUT: have people seen that the FBI did investigate KC in the latest FBI files. I was wondering if Blevins would have been all excited to see the references in the FBI files.

 

Also: did people note the list of "Phase II" suspects that were still considered plausible in 2004 when they dispatched agents to collect DNA with respect to 3 or 4 of those still-not-cleared suspects? (sadly, they still had McCoy on that list, but there are others, redacted. They had some reasons why #1 was still on the list, based on their investigation)

I was wondering if people had pursued the name of  the #1 on that list. They have some info, but most is redacted.

KC didn't make the cut.

I was surprised to see stuff from 2004 in the files. 
Still seems like there is more stuff to come in the future.  around 21278 pages now (61 files)

Edited by snowmman

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21 minutes ago, snowmman said:


hey I don't support this idea of KC.

BUT: have people seen that the FBI did investigate KC in the latest FBI files. I was wondering if Blevins would have been all excited to see the references in the FBI files.

 

Also: did people note the list of "Phase II" suspects that were still considered plausible in 2004 when they dispatched agents to collect DNA with respect to 3 or 4 of those still-not-cleared suspects? (sadly, they still had McCoy on that list, but there are others, redacted. They had some reasons why #1 was still on the list, based on their investigation)

I was wondering if people had pursued the name of  the #1 on that list. They have some info, but most is redacted.

KC didn't make the cut.

I was surprised to see stuff from 2004 in the files. 
Still seems like there is more stuff to come in the future.  around 21278 pages now (61 files)

You're talking about the first two guys here right? https://martinandrade.wordpress.com/2020/11/24/db-cooper-the-fbis-unresolved-suspects/ 

They're both very intriguing suspects IMO, and need more attention. Some people have been making efforts to identify them but no conclusions have been reached, as far as I know.

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(edited)
Quote

BUT: have people seen that the FBI did investigate KC in the latest FBI files. I was wondering if Blevins would have been all excited to see the references in the FBI files.

This was done early on and based on a single article in the New York Magazine by Geoff Gray. He wasn't investigated. They simply dismissed him out of hand. 

A few years and a couple of preliminary reports later, I talked to Special Agent Fred Gutt up in Seattle and asked him if the Seattle FBI still considered KC a write off. This is what he said:

Quote

"He has not been eliminated as a suspect. (sic) Some in this office think he's a good suspect. Others believe there are better suspects..."

Probably just a coincidence, but the FBI wrote off the Cooper case a little more than a year after they got our full report and the video stuff. 

A month after that, Agent John Jarvis at Quantico allegedly claimed that the reason the case was closed was because the FBI had decided KC was the hijacker after all...and that he was dead anyway. I covered these things in a couple of WordPress articles. Jarvis was a 15-year veteran of the FBI at that time, and worked in Behavioral Profiling. His picture is shown below. 

johnjarvisFBI.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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3 hours ago, snowmman said:

I hadn't read the article, thanks for the link.

first thoughts on the article:

looking at the picture, the bills should have been constrained by a paper strap, in multiple bundles secured by rubber bands, as the more likely packaging to cooper, but I think that doesn't change things much.

 
The idea that the bills were as shown, secured by rubber bands only, is very unlikely. The available documentation doesn't support that description. (mostly it comes from Carr pushing his bias, based on some undocumented info and conversations he had..but his point of view colored his descriptions of that info)

Additionally, testing the effect of a single bundle in water isn't interesting. A large number of strapped packets, with groups secured by rubber bands, in a bag, would behave differently.
 
There's nothing to suggest that the first arrival in water, was individual bundles, either from the sky or otherwise. Testing single bundles first, is an assumption/bias about bundles arriving in water.

Yes, the float test was done long ago.. needs to be redone.

Tina handled the money and said bank style bands, the bank manager is noted in the FBI files saying bank bands and Himmelsbach said straps...

I noticed Ulis is claiming the rubber band frag was in the middle, I have never found any evidence for that.. 

Somebody should ask him for a source.

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6 hours ago, Coopericane said:

You're talking about the first two guys here right? https://martinandrade.wordpress.com/2020/11/24/db-cooper-the-fbis-unresolved-suspects/ 

They're both very intriguing suspects IMO, and need more attention. Some people have been making efforts to identify them but no conclusions have been reached, as far as I know.

No, you're talking about the early Shelton reference (the "Indian" family.

There's another, later. Phase II. 2004.

Oh wait, maybe they're all the same. Not sure. Seems like you've connected the dots better. 

Edited by snowmman

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10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The evidence indicates money was given to Cooper in 100 bill packets of circulated $20 bills of random SN number sequence. The packets were likely bank paper strapped and those packets rubber banded into bundles of a random count of packets..

I'm sure you've seen it, and you may have mentioned this before and I just don't remember it, but in the old Unsolved Mysteries episode on DB Cooper, Ralph Himmelsbach states the following:

"There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap, and individual straps held together with rubber bands".

 

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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19 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I'm sure you've seen it, and you may have mentioned this before and I just don't remember it, but in the old Unsolved Mysteries episode on DB Cooper, Ralph Himmelsbach states the following:

"There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap, and individual straps held together with rubber bands".

 

Yes, I posted that vid here before..

Also Tina, bank type bands

tinabanktypebands.jpg.92e37fb0a4426e4d1bbc04a53590c2ff.jpg

and bank bands

bankbandpackets.jpeg.59877677065d2d8e6a2b2d816ec7188b.jpeg

 

one bundle

1138823993_onebundle.JPG.46e133212ebf9e1e32c9b39b6f78a3f7.JPG

Edited by FLYJACK

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, I posted that vid here before..

Also Tina, bank type bands

tinabanktypebands.jpg.92e37fb0a4426e4d1bbc04a53590c2ff.jpg

and bank bands

bankbandpackets.jpeg.59877677065d2d8e6a2b2d816ec7188b.jpeg

 

one bundle

1138823993_onebundle.JPG.46e133212ebf9e1e32c9b39b6f78a3f7.JPG

That interview with the Seafirst Bank employee seems pretty definitive to me.

It seems to me, that rubber bands were not introduced into discussion or FBI memos, until the money was found in 1980?
Was there any mention of rubber bands before 1980?

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One of the most common questions that readers of Into The Blast send me is asking WHY none of the bills were ever discovered in circulation. (Look folks...whether you agree with the premise of the book or not, it still remains the second-best selling book on the case behind Geoff Gray's Skyjack, and my email address is all over the internet.)

My answer is based (to a degree) on an interview I did with a senior Treasury official some years ago. He had worked for 30 years at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving in DC, where the order came down originally from the FBI for them to check all their incoming twenties against the famous bill list. And as some of you know, FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach claimed for years that they were looking for those bills over an extended period of time. 

However...this Treasury official rejected this completely. He said that BEP received 'truckloads' (his words) of used and damaged currency each week. He said that no matter what the FBI claimed, that such an order would have been ignored, or that such a search would have gone on for no more than a very short time, due to the logistics of trying to search so many incoming bills against that list. He added that the Federal banks would have handled it the same way...a cursory, short-term search, if any was done at all, no matter what Himmelsbach was telling the media. 

This is similar to what happened with the civilian Northwest banks. Larry Carr admitted in his radio interview with Steven Rienhart (linked at the bottom of the DB Cooper page at Wikipedia) that the civilian search was abandoned by most of the banks within three months after the bill list was issued, and virtually ALL of them gave it up after no more than six months. 

This means that by May of 1972, no one was actually looking for the bills against the list anymore. After that time, they could be safely spent as long as you weren't dropping huge numbers of them at some car lot or whatever. After that time, if the bills were in circulation and after they were worn out and eventually ended up at the BEP in DC...that they would pass through the system there and be destroyed with no one the wiser. 

And that is how they were probably missed. It was just too much of a job to ask of anyone. 

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6 hours ago, snowmman said:

That interview with the Seafirst Bank employee seems pretty definitive to me.

It seems to me, that rubber bands were not introduced into discussion or FBI memos, until the money was found in 1980?
Was there any mention of rubber bands before 1980?

Also, the FBI did not want to publicly release the manor in which the money was packaged as only Cooper would know.. they state that. That info was a hold back.

"information only known to us and the hijacker"

840807694_coopercashonebundleacopy.jpg.3a77caf31ddbcdffe6136b640e470338.jpg

 

Bundles were randomized,,, (not packets of 100) 

IMPORTANT: The money was found in packets of 100's in original order not random count, evidence is the bundles were randomized and that must have been done with rubber bands.

 

"bundled into several sizes the time of the hijacking" "appear that it was randomly done"

1337574135_coopermoneyrandomizedcopy.jpeg.90c6f0d04781d3bfb55676fcfeb15883.jpeg

 

"bundled".. "randomly done"

764278117_Oregonian_Feb_13_1980_Front_Pagecopy.thumb.gif.3020119a5b5eacb8bd66d1087b8ec8bb.gif

 

I posted this before but it is important..

7:19 in video

Himmelsbach.. Money was given to Cooper strapped in 100's and bundled with rubber bands..

"There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands."

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

One of the most common questions that readers of Into The Blast send me is asking WHY none of the bills were ever discovered in circulation. (Look folks...whether you agree with the premise of the book or not, it still remains the second-best selling book on the case behind Geoff Gray's Skyjack, and my email address is all over the internet.)

My answer is based (to a degree) on an interview I did with a senior Treasury official some years ago. He had worked for 30 years at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving in DC, where the order came down originally from the FBI for them to check all their incoming twenties against the famous bill list. And as some of you know, FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach claimed for years that they were looking for those bills over an extended period of time. 

However...this Treasury official rejected this completely. He said that BEP received 'truckloads' (his words) of used and damaged currency each week. He said that no matter what the FBI claimed, that such an order would have been ignored, or that such a search would have gone on for no more than a very short time, due to the logistics of trying to search so many incoming bills against that list. He added that the Federal banks would have handled it the same way...a cursory, short-term search, if any was done at all, no matter what Himmelsbach was telling the media. 

This is similar to what happened with the civilian Northwest banks. Larry Carr admitted in his radio interview with Steven Rienhart (linked at the bottom of the DB Cooper page at Wikipedia) that the civilian search was abandoned by most of the banks within three months after the bill list was issued, and virtually ALL of them gave it up after no more than six months. 

This means that by May of 1972, no one was actually looking for the bills against the list anymore. After that time, they could be safely spent as long as you weren't dropping huge numbers of them at some car lot or whatever. After that time, if the bills were in circulation and after they were worn out and eventually ended up at the BEP in DC...that they would pass through the system there and be destroyed with no one the wiser. 

And that is how they were probably missed. It was just too much of a job to ask of anyone. 

Darren interviewed the numismismisistister "money guy" he said if the money were spent in the US something would show up.. 

Hahneman fled to Honduras weeks after NORJAK, if he was Cooper then the money went to Honduras and was stashed and/or spent..  never to show up in US circulatiion.

Edited by FLYJACK

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49 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Or lost during the jump? Thus creating the need to do another hijacking? 

Yes, all or part lost...

Hahneman was in the US Dec 71 and fled to Honduras Jan 72 to establish residency there. He got an ID with Honduran citizenship, an altered name and an incorrect birthdate. He was hiding.

 

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